Oxford Corridor Phase 2 & Platform 5 updates

[Falcon1200]

Bus 'termini' would be at the station, St Giles, The Plain and Folly Bridge.

Forcing people to walk, or change to get to the city centre, might be fine for those who are fit and able, but not everybody, for example my 92 year old Mum. A far greater benefit would be banning lorries and vans unloading during peak hours, the congestion on George Street in particular in the morning is ridiculous.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Forcing people to walk, or change to get to the city centre, might be fine for those who are fit and able, but not everybody, for example my 92 year old Mum. A far greater benefit would be banning lorries and vans unloading during peak hours, the congestion on George Street in particular in the morning is ridiculous.

Another reason why it's preferable to have a long diversion rather than splitting the 400 and ST2 into two separate routes.

 

[BrianW]

Forcing people to walk, or change to get to the city centre, might be fine for those who are fit and able, but not everybody, for example my 92 year old Mum. A far greater benefit would be banning lorries and vans unloading during peak hours, the congestion on George Street in particular in the morning is ridiculous.

That is great to hear about your Mum's mobility- my mum was much the same. That mobility and independence are to be encouraged and facilitated- in making my argument I needed to be more nuanced in my wording. IIRC I put some words in brackets regarding 'linkages' to those termini. maybe something like the earlier minibus-type arrangements when it was 'Thames Travel'/ something or other Pony??- my memory is not what it was. Maybe some development of ''Dial-a-Ride'?

I wonder how many people do pass through the Centre rather than get out there?

The mix of buses and bikes is a bad and dangerous one. There are fatalities, esp with 'freshers' and international students. Tragic and traumatic.

Perhaps having this bridge closed for a period will give some realtime experience of a significant 'realignment' of some people's movement patterns. Scope for a DPhil study!

Hoping your Mum's movements may not be badly affected by this. Covid affected my family's 'out-and-aboutness' badly, but on the other hand mobility scooters have enhanced it a lot. With the growth of Zoom, Working and shopping from home, It may be time for a 'bigger picture' review of how people may move around in the near future. My mum used to love 'going round the shops'; sadly she didn't buy enough to keep Debenhams, C&A etc going. I expect it may be some time before Oxford Uni goes out of town ...Going a bit off-topic so stopping there.

 

[higthomas]

That is great to hear about your Mum's mobility- my mum was much the same. That mobility and independence are to be encouraged and facilitated- in making my argument I needed to be more nuanced in my wording. IIRC I put some words in brackets regarding 'linkages' to those termini. maybe something like the earlier minibus-type arrangements when it was 'Thames Travel'/ something or other Pony??- my memory is not what it was. Maybe some development of ''Dial-a-Ride'?

I wonder how many people do pass through the Centre rather than get out there?

The mix of buses and bikes is a bad and dangerous one. There are fatalities, esp with 'freshers' and international students. Tragic and traumatic.

Perhaps having this bridge closed for a period will give some realtime experience of a significant 'realignment' of some people's movement patterns. Scope for a DPhil study!

Hoping your Mum's movements may not be badly affected by this. Covid affected my family's 'out-and-aboutness' badly, but on the other hand mobility scooters have enhanced it a lot. With the growth of Zoom, Working and shopping from home, It may be time for a 'bigger picture' review of how people may move around in the near future. My mum used to love 'going round the shops'; sadly she didn't buy enough to keep Debenhams, C&A etc going. I expect it may be some time before Oxford Uni goes out of town ...Going a bit off-topic so stopping there.

I used to live in Oxford, and did a lot of cycling around the centre. I generally found the bus drivers to be pretty great, and most bus/bike issues were the cyclists fault. The taxis, delivery drivers and cars (especially tourists and parents at term start and end) we're what felt dangerous. If you get rid of the buses, you'd just have a lot more of them.

There are a few places where the bus/bike interaction could be improved (St Aldates, George Street spring to mind), but in general I found it one of the safest places to cycle, and the buses are a large part of that.

 

[Falcon1200]

I've always though a huge opportunity was lost when the Said Business School was built on the site of Rewley Road station; This should have become Oxford's bus station, with, as well as longer distance services, as many local routes as possible diverted to or through it. Too late now though!

 

[JamesT]

I've always though a huge opportunity was lost when the Said Business School was built on the site of Rewley Road station; This should have become Oxford's bus station, with, as well as longer distance services, as many local routes as possible diverted to or through it. Too late now though!

The Masterplan for redeveloping the station puts a bus station on the site of the current station car park. But given there’s already a station at Gloucester Green, what advantage would moving it further away from the city centre have?

 

[DaveHarries]

but it's good news for us cyclists!

Doesn't benefit everyone though and the traffic will be a nightmare. I normally get either into or out of Oxford on the bus (S6) to / from Swindon as it is cheaper than a train (£5 single) so this will certainly lessen the convenience of public transport to Oxford from the west thereof.

The Masterplan for redeveloping the station puts a bus station on the site of the current station car park. But given there’s already a station at Gloucester Green, what advantage would moving it further away from the city centre have?

None. Anyhow I doubt the interchange at Oxford rail station would replace Gloucester Green.

Dave

 

[Falcon1200]

But given there’s already a station at Gloucester Green, what advantage would moving it further away from the city centre have?

Being next to the rail station, and (before the site was lost) having plenty of space! Having more local buses there would also mean a more frequent service between the station and the city centre, which even with the 1/5 routes supposedly running every few minutes is still desperately poor; I have seen 15 minute gaps. Gloucester Green too is a shadow of its former self.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

The Masterplan for redeveloping the station puts a bus station on the site of the current station car park. But given there’s already a station at Gloucester Green, what advantage would moving it further away from the city centre have?

Closing George Street to motor vehicles would be an advantage.

 

[davetheguard]

Doesn't benefit everyone though and the traffic will be a nightmare.

Swings and roundabouts surely? Coming in on the bus from Swindon, the progress along the Botley Road should be much faster without loads of cars in the way. The downside is of course the need to get off on the west side of the railway bridge and walk underneath it.

 

[Oxfordblues]

Doesn't benefit everyone though and the traffic will be a nightmare. I normally get either into or out of Oxford on the bus (S6) to / from Swindon as it is cheaper than a train (£5 single) so this will certainly lessen the convenience of public transport to Oxford from the west thereof.

I believe the S6 from Swindon will terminate at Seacourt Park & Ride from where a shuttle bus will operate to the junction with Cripley Road. Here a bus turning-circle will be created by demolishing the kebab cafe. It's then a short walk through the tunnel to Frideswide Square from where buses will depart eastwards through the city centre. The narrow tunnel will be shared with cyclists and even, if there's no proper security presence, Deliveroo motorcyclists (try stopping them!)

 

[Benjwri]

Oxford Bus company have just put out their route changes for next year, available here, unlike previously thought there aren't plans to split services. They will either run on a diversionary route around the Botley Road Bridge, or will terminate to the west of Oxford station.

 

[gallafent]

Oxford Bus company have just put out their route changes for next year, available here, unlike previously thought there aren't plans to split services. They will either run on a diversionary route around the Botley Road Bridge, or will terminate to the west of Oxford station.

Hmm, it's a bit of a mixture really, the 400 / U1, (the main cross-city route, I think!), will be split:

[…] The service will be split into two, with frequencies similar to the current timetable. […]

As for the other affected services, the 3B school service will be diverted, and the 4A (and 33 & 63) curtailed to the west of the bridge, … but those only went into the centre anyway rather than further afield … and the ST2 will also be diverted.

 

[Falcon1200]

Oxford Bus company have just put out their route changes for next year, available here, unlike previously thought there aren't plans to split services. They will either run on a diversionary route around the Botley Road Bridge, or will terminate to the west of Oxford station.

Something I could not see mentioned is whether, with some services terminating on the west side of the Botley Road bridge, an enhanced service will be provided between the east side of the station and the city centre, and if so, would these turn at the station bus stops? In my experience the service between the station and the city is dire already, with often 15 minute gaps in the 1/5 routes, but then 3 turning up at once, sometimes with an empty bus leaving before a full one which was parked in front. Plus the 13 which used to serve the station was recently diverted away (and in the January plan ceases to serve Northway too, leaving that area, served by the Oxford Bus Co and its predecessor for decades, with no service at all! But I'm going a bit off route here....)

 

[Oxfordblues]

Work has already started on borehole-drilling around the soon-to-be-demolished ex-Youth Hostel. Kier Construction's project manager tells me everything has been planned for and the bus companies have devised a route-splitting/diversionary plan. So what could possibly go wrong? Well, I suspect that a majority of motorists driving into Oxford are unaware of the blockade and will, at least initially, drive up to the barriers before being turned back. Experience with the Low-Traffic Neighbourhood bollards in East Oxford has been that they have been vandalised and sometimes physically removed by outraged motorists and I have warned the project manager that they might try something similar at the bridge. He reassures me the barrier will be of concrete blocks, but he failed to explain how "blue light" emergency vehicles will be able to get through.

The obvious alternative route into town is Abingdon Road but that is already saturated with traffic at peak* times (* for which read "most of the day"). There's even a proposal by local councillors and residents that Abingdon Road should be closed to private cars for the duration as the Redbridge Park & Ride buses will be rendered useless by vastly extended journey times. Well, we will see!

The whole exercise will be an interesting experiment in the practicality of suppressing private car use in cities and comes after Tuesday's County Council decision to implement the six traffic filters elsewhere in the city, but deferred until Botley Road reopens, so sometime in 2024.

 

[Falcon1200]

Well, I suspect that a majority of motorists driving into Oxford are unaware of the blockade and will, at least initially, drive up to the barriers before being turned back.

The closures have been well reported in the Oxford Mail, although not everyone will see that of course. Hopefully there will be more publicity so that as many as possible know the score, with roadside signs placed well in advance, with the slow progress of traffic on Botley Road these would not be difficult to read!

 

[LYRobert]

Now forgive me if this has been suggested up-thread, I haven't the will-power to trawl through it - we're at 5 pages!
I came to Oxford in the mid sixties and at that time I think there were the remains of a level crossing immediately south of Botley Road bridge. I went to look at it at the time - there was a barrow crossing for sure, but then beyond that I remember the remnants of a much wider road crossing. I discussed it with a fellow student and he thought the wider crossing was sometimes used rather than the under-bridge for awkward loads and that sort of thing.
Now it's a long time ago, and I might be wrong of course. So I looked at it on Google Earth and indeed, it looks as if a temporary at-grade crossing of the rail tracks (there's four of them) and the approach ramps could be engineered. It looks as if there is space on both sides of the railway for temporary ramps. Such an arrangement would enable normal Botley Road traffic to continue, and avoid the need for long detours and the increase in traffic on other roads, and bus services could continue as normal. Now I know the railway wouldn't like it, they have to have rail access to the bridge site and would prefer to have it from both north and south directions. Nevertheless, it looks as if my at-grade crossing idea could be implemented and it would solve a bundle of awkward problems.
What do you think?

 

[zwk500]

Nevertheless, it looks as if my at-grade crossing idea could be implemented and it would solve a bundle of awkward problems.
What do you think?

1. New level crossings are strongly discouraged unless there really is no alternative at all.
2. The point of the works is to realign the tracks above Botley road. if there's a level crossing anywhere close then they won't be able to move the tracks without closing the level crossing, which defeats the point of putting it in, in the first place!
3. With the works and service level, the barriers will be down so long you're unlikely to get any traffic across between each train.

 

[LYRobert]

1. New level crossings are strongly discouraged unless there really is no alternative at all.
2. The point of the works is to realign the tracks above Botley road. if there's a level crossing anywhere close then they won't be able to move the tracks without closing the level crossing, which defeats the point of putting it in, in the first place!
3. With the works and service level, the barriers will be down so long you're unlikely to get any traffic across between each train.

I'm sorry - maybe I haven't made it clear - my suggestion is for a temporary crossing of the tracks for the duration of the bridge works. There would be no rail traffic, so no need for the ususal level crossing apparatus. In fact, "Level crossing" is not an adequate description of what I have in mind - it's more of a "temporary roadway" of the sort the highway engineers lay down to carry traffic during major road works and then take up again as soon as the job is finished, and it'd be the same in this case. Once the new bridge is finished the temporary road can be removed entirely - ramps and all. Then the railway can then put their rails back.
I have seen the railway do much wilder things. For example, they built a four-track viaduct alongside the existing masonry one in Newcastle, diverted all four tracks onto it, did what they had to do to the masonry one, and then restored all to normal. This Oxford job is mild by comparison.

 

[zwk500]

I'm sorry - maybe I haven't made it clear - my suggestion is for a temporary crossing of the tracks for the duration of the bridge works. There would be no rail traffic, so no need for the ususal level crossing apparatus. In fact, "Level crossing" is not an adequate description of what I have in mind - it's more of a "temporary roadway" of the sort the highway engineers lay down to carry traffic during major road works and then take up again as soon as the job is finished, and it'd be the same in this case. Once the new bridge is finished the temporary road can be removed entirely - ramps and all. Then the railway can then put their rails back.
I have seen the railway do much wilder things. For example, they built a four-track viaduct alongside the existing masonry one in Newcastle, diverted all four tracks onto it, did what they had to do to the masonry one, and then restored all to normal. This Oxford job is mild by comparison.

Are you talking about Osney Lane or literally adjacent to Botley Road?

 

[JamesT]

I'm sorry - maybe I haven't made it clear - my suggestion is for a temporary crossing of the tracks for the duration of the bridge works. There would be no rail traffic, so no need for the ususal level crossing apparatus. In fact, "Level crossing" is not an adequate description of what I have in mind - it's more of a "temporary roadway" of the sort the highway engineers lay down to carry traffic during major road works and then take up again as soon as the job is finished, and it'd be the same in this case. Once the new bridge is finished the temporary road can be removed entirely - ramps and all. Then the railway can then put their rails back.
I have seen the railway do much wilder things. For example, they built a four-track viaduct alongside the existing masonry one in Newcastle, diverted all four tracks onto it, did what they had to do to the masonry one, and then restored all to normal. This Oxford job is mild by comparison.

The problem with that idea is that the disruptive bit of the work is with the road. There’s been no indication of extended closures for the railway. So the presumption of no rail traffic doesn’t hold.

 

[stuving]

The "Oxford Station Emergency level crossing" has been obstructed (by a step) and not used for many years. It was closed as part of the TWAO for the new bridge etc. Article 15 of the TWAO application was to extinguish that right of way, which I presume was granted (I'm not sure of the timing of that). The closing submissions by NR to the public inquiry included (p. 24):

70. Section 5(6) of the Transport and Works Act 1992 provides that a TWA order “shall not extinguish any public right of way over land unless the Secretary of State is satisfied – (a) that an alternative right of way has been or will be provided, or (b) that the provision of an alternative right of way is not required.” The Order does not seek to extinguish any public rights of way, save for Article 15 which stops up the former Oxford Station Emergency level crossing parallel to Botley Road (plot 34) and extinguishes all rights of way over that level crossing. Given that it is a disused level crossing (being both redundant and physically blocked from use on safety grounds) the provision of an alternative right of way is not required. In the County Council’s deed of agreement with NR, the County Council has stated its support for formalising the closure of this redundant level crossing (JDL proof 4.10.4).

Is the road and the bridge over it going to be widened on that side? That makes the former crossing part of the works site.

 

[hwl]

Now forgive me if this has been suggested up-thread, I haven't the will-power to trawl through it - we're at 5 pages!
I came to Oxford in the mid sixties and at that time I think there were the remains of a level crossing immediately south of Botley Road bridge. I went to look at it at the time - there was a barrow crossing for sure, but then beyond that I remember the remnants of a much wider road crossing. I discussed it with a fellow student and he thought the wider crossing was sometimes used rather than the under-bridge for awkward loads and that sort of thing.
Now it's a long time ago, and I might be wrong of course. So I looked at it on Google Earth and indeed, it looks as if a temporary at-grade crossing of the rail tracks (there's four of them) and the approach ramps could be engineered. It looks as if there is space on both sides of the railway for temporary ramps. Such an arrangement would enable normal Botley Road traffic to continue, and avoid the need for long detours and the increase in traffic on other roads, and bus services could continue as normal. Now I know the railway wouldn't like it, they have to have rail access to the bridge site and would prefer to have it from both north and south directions. Nevertheless, it looks as if my at-grade crossing idea could be implemented and it would solve a bundle of awkward problems.
What do you think?

You obviously aren't aware of the scope of the plans, if you were you would be suggesting what you have...

Botley road is being significantly widened to the south to have 2 road lanes, 2 bus lanes and pavement + cycle lanes both north and south of the road.

This means all the existing bridge decks are being replaced and new fifth one added to the west.

The existing abutments and wing walls alignments are being moved further north (slightly) and south (significantly).

The new alignment of the southern abutment and wing walls is just south of the alignment you are thinking of for your level crossing concept, which means it is a complete non starter as it is one of the key construction areas and the ground level where your "level" roadway is will be ~15-16feet deeper before Botley road is closed...

That make the former crossing part of the works site?

Yes - it will end up a lot deeper!

Are you talking about Osney Lane or literally adjacent to Botley Road?

Circa 5m south of the current road southern edge e.g. through the hotel car park and where the NR access gates are on both sides.

 

[JamesT]

You obviously aren't aware of the scope of the plans, if you were you would be suggesting what you have...

Botley road is being significantly widened to the south to have 2 road lanes, 2 bus lanes and pavement + cycle lanes both north and south of the road.

This means all the existing bridge decks are being replaced and new fifth one added to the west.

The existing abutments and wing walls alignments are being moved further north (slightly) and south (significantly).

The new alignment of the southern abutment and wing walls is just south of the alignment you are thinking of for your level crossing concept, which means it is a complete non starter as it is one of the key construction areas and the ground level where your "level" roadway is will be ~15-16feet deeper before Botley road is closed...

Unfortunately they’re not being that ambitious with the plans, it will remain as two road lanes only under the bridge. There will be 4m wide shared pedestrian/cycle paths either side segregated from the roadway.

 

[Oxfordblues]

As any road user of the level-crossing at Appleford will be aware there's often a long wait before the Thames Valley signaller can give you a slot to cross in safety, so no such facility would be practicable for Botley Road in Oxford. However the project manager has assured me that during the 9-day rail blockade next summer, when the pedestrian tunnel is closed, a temporary level crossing will be provided for walkers and cyclists south of the worksite but within the possession. So access at all times for us cyclists, thankfully!

 

[hwl]

However the project manager has assured me that during the 9-day rail blockade next summer, when the pedestrian tunnel is closed, a temporary level crossing will be provided for walkers and cyclists south of the worksite but within the possession. So access at all times for us cyclists, thankfully!

Is the Osney Lane footbridge open throughout the Botley Road closure?

 

[Oxfordblues]

Is the Osney Lane footbridge open throughout the Botley Road closure?

Yes, the footbridges at Hinksey South, Hinksey North, Osney Lane and Aristotle Road are all open throughout, plus the walking/cycling route via Roger Dudman Way/Walton Well Road bridge.

 

[TeeMarkM]

You obviously aren't aware of the scope of the plans, if you were you would be suggesting what you have...

Botley road is being significantly widened to the south to have 2 road lanes, 2 bus lanes and pavement + cycle lanes both north and south of the road.

This means all the existing bridge decks are being replaced and new fifth one added to the west.

The existing abutments and wing walls alignments are being moved further north (slightly) and south (significantly).

The new alignment of the southern abutment and wing walls is just south of the alignment you are thinking of for your level crossing concept, which means it is a complete non starter as it is one of the key construction areas and the ground level where your "level" roadway is will be ~15-16feet deeper before Botley road is closed...


Yes - it will end up a lot deeper!


Circa 5m south of the current road southern edge e.g. through the hotel car park and where the NR access gates are on both sides.

The LC you saw in the 1960s indeed existed legally as a public highway until fairly recently; despite city/ county council cycle and pedestrian schemes 20ish yr ago rendering the LC unusable by vehicles for which it was originally retained!
Officially named Oxford Station South, after the adjacent signal box that unlocked the gates until 1973.
From 1973 the LC was hand-worked by station staff ringing Oxford Panel signalman for a release of the gate keys.
LC declared legally as well as physically dead as of Oxford Corridor Phase One resignalling.

...it looks as if a temporary at-grade crossing of the rail tracks (there's four of them) and the approach ramps could be engineered. It looks as if there is space on both sides of the railway for temporary ramps. Such an arrangement would enable normal Botley Road traffic to continue, and avoid the need for long detours and the increase in traffic on other roads, and bus services could continue as normal. Now I know the railway wouldn't like it, they have to have rail access to the bridge site and would prefer to have it from both north and south directions. Nevertheless, it looks as if my at-grade crossing idea could be implemented and it would solve a bundle of awkward problems.
What do you think?

In short, any LC there today [temporary or permanent] would be impracticable operationally. The sheer number of train movements to signal punctually would leave few margins to open for users before the closure sequence has to happen again and the barriers lock down, often for two or more trains at a time. The high potential for misuse in 'beating the lights' rather than waiting possibly 10min for the LC to reopen would bring unacceptable risks. NR therefore wouldn't allow it; even if they did it wouldn't get ORR's safety approval.

 

[LYRobert]

The LC you saw in the 1960s indeed existed legally as a public highway until fairly recently; despite city/ county council cycle and pedestrian schemes 20ish yr ago rendering the LC unusable by vehicles for which it was originally retained!
Officially named Oxford Station South, after the adjacent signal box that unlocked the gates until 1973.
From 1973 the LC was hand-worked by station staff ringing Oxford Panel signalman for a release of the gate keys.
LC declared legally as well as physically dead as of Oxford Corridor Phase One resignalling.


In short, any LC there today [temporary or permanent] would be impracticable operationally. The sheer number of train movements to signal punctually would leave few margins to open for users before the closure sequence has to happen again and the barriers lock down, often for two or more trains at a time. The high potential for misuse in 'beating the lights' rather than waiting possibly 10min for the LC to reopen would bring unacceptable risks. NR therefore wouldn't allow it; even if they did it wouldn't get ORR's safety approval.

My idea is - was - to make a temporary road, not to make any sort of level crossing. Maybe the confusion comes about by the use of the term "Level crossing". I should have typed "At grade temporary roadway" because "Level Crossing" evokes all sorts of images of gates, half barriers, flashing lights - all that. My idea is based on my supposition that there'll be no rail traffic at all - bearing in mind that for a time there'll be no bridge deck there for it to run over. Maybe that's the mistake - there will have to be rail-bourne movements even when there's no bridge deck there, for cranes, spoil removal and such-like.
Don't think "LEVEL CROSSING", think 'temp. roadway'.
OK then - I have read all the reasons why its a bad idea. Plenty of those. Are there any who think it's a GOOD idea? Thinking outside the box type people? Maybe? Perhaps?

 

[zwk500]

OK then - I have read all the reasons why its a bad idea. Plenty of those. Are there any who think it's a GOOD idea? Thinking outside the box type people? Maybe? Perhaps?

Being outside the box does not always make an idea good. It was a valiantattempt to fix the problem, but unfortunately it's just entirely unworkable.