Oyster Cards and Weekend Engineering

[extendedpaul]

I've recently bought an Oyster Smartcard and will be using it for the first time on Sunday to travel from New Beckenham or Beckenham Hill to Charing Cross - which is closed all day. National Rail Enquiries Journey Planner offers me routes to Blackfriars and Cannon Street then by underground to Charing Cross.

If I touch out at the end of the rail journey how do I use the tube without a further charge ?

Sorry if this is a "silly" question but I don't want to break the rules or pay too much.

( I won't be returning to Beckenham)

 

[Urban Gateline]

If you're using Oyster PAYG, then you will pay the fare for the full Journey you undertake, regardless of engineering works.

That is the disadvantage to using paper tickets, where you would be manually let through Gatelines on the underground with the ticket being valid on that special route because of engineering works.

 

[extendedpaul]

Thank you, I had a hunch that would be the case.

I'll just buy a single and save my Oyster.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

If I touch out at the end of the rail journey how do I use the tube without a further charge ?

The way it's supposed to work is that you touch out at the National Rail station and touch in again on the Underground and then out for a second time at the final destination. If only a "short" period of time elapses, the two journeys will be linked and priced as one continuous one.

 

[transmanche]

The way it's supposed to work is that you touch out at the National Rail station and touch in again on the Underground and then out for a second time at the final destination. If only a "short" period of time elapses, the two journeys will be linked and priced as one continuous one.

I think the point that Urban Gateline is making is that the journey from New Beckenham or Beckenham Hill to Charing Cross NR (£2.60) would cost less than one to Charing Cross LU (£4.10) - as the latter incurs the 'zone 1 mixed-mode tax'.

I think what's meant to happen when engineering works take place is for the TOC to ask LU to change the programming on the ticket gates at Charing Cross; thus charging the lower single-mode fare. But this rarely seems to happen. (Although I'm sure I've read here that TfL are good at doing if for LU and LO engineering works; it seems that the TOCs choose not to do it.)

 

[Squaddie]

I have always found that when I have incurred a higher fare on my Oyster due to engineering works (e.g. when a tube line is closed and I have to complete my journey by bus) a quick call to the Oyster helpline sorts it out.

 

[Be3G]

I have always found that when I have incurred a higher fare on my Oyster due to engineering works (e.g. when a tube line is closed and I have to complete my journey by bus) a quick call to the Oyster helpline sorts it out.

This is the official line from TfL when there're engineering works on NR – pay the normal price for the route you ended up taking and request a refund.

 

[MikeWh]

Thank you, I had a hunch that would be the case.

I'll just buy a single and save my Oyster.

I wouldn't!

There are no off-peak fares for paper tickets in London (except the travelcard) so the single for that journey will cost £5.00. If you have to use the tube then the Oyster will charge you £4.10, but NRE tells me that there are shuttles between Cannon Street and Charing Cross so you should only have to pay the usual £2.60.

The above works for New Beckenham. Beckenham Hill goes into Blackfriars and would normally route you via the tube.

Note: All fares are the new rates as they start this Sunday.

 

[Alex-JER/LGW]

Another example of why Oyster is not fit for purpose:roll:

 

[Goatboy]

What is this 'mixed mode' surcharge thing about? I thought a journey in, say, Zone 1 was a journey in Zone 1, fixed price. I thought this was the entire point of Oyster?

Say I wanted to travel from, I dunno, New Cross to Euston via SouthEastern to Charing Cross. Would that cost more than a conventional Zone 2 to Zone 1 journey?

If so doesn't this rather defeat the entire object of Zones?

Whats the best way of working out what a 'mixed mode' journey might cost?

 

[bicbasher]

What is this 'mixed mode' surcharge thing about? I thought a journey in, say, Zone 1 was a journey in Zone 1, fixed price. I thought this was the entire point of Oyster?

Say I wanted to travel from, I dunno, New Cross to Euston via SouthEastern to Charing Cross. Would that cost more than a conventional Zone 2 to Zone 1 journey?

Mixed mode is normally charged if you touch out at a NR terminus and then use a TfL form of rail transport, such as LU or the DLR (and in the other direction) or if changing between NR and LU/LO/DLR outside Zone 1.

Using your example, it'd actually be cheaper to travel from New Cross to Euston using the London Overground service via Canada Water or Whitechapel which would cost you £2.10 off-peak (until Saturday) which is charged at the TfL rate, than Southeastern than the Northern line which is £3.30 off-peak (£2.20 NR, plus the mixed mode charge of £1.10).

However mixed mode if the journey doesn't involve Zone 1, Clapham Junction to Morden changing at Balham for example will be charged at the NR Zone 2-6 fare.

There are some journeys where you'll be charged the cheaper fare. Dalston Junction to New Cross Gate is charged at the NR rate despite travelling wholly on a TfL service and Forest Hill to Farringdon is charged is also charged at the NR rate even if you travel via the ELL and the H&C.

 

[87015]

I think what's meant to happen when engineering works take place is for the TOC to ask LU to change the programming on the ticket gates at Charing Cross; thus charging the lower single-mode fare. But this rarely seems to happen. (Although I'm sure I've read here that TfL are good at doing if for LU and LO engineering works; it seems that the TOCs choose not to do it.)

Correct, TOCs have to request easements due to engineering work/ticket acceptance would then be automatically charged the correct through fare vice mixed mode etc. The fact many don't says it all.

 

[Goatboy]

Mixed mode is normally charged if you touch out at a NR terminus and then use a TfL form of rail transport, such as LU or the DLR (and in the other direction) or if changing between NR and LU/LO/DLR outside Zone 1.

Using your example, it'd actually be cheaper to travel from New Cross to Euston using the London Overground service via Canada Water or Whitechapel which would cost you £2.10 off-peak (until Saturday) which is charged at the TfL rate, than Southeastern than the Northern line which is £3.30 off-peak (£2.20 NR, plus the mixed mode charge of £1.10).

What is the purpose of this mixed mode surcharge? It seems to go against the concept of having a zonal pricing system. Is it explained clearly on the TFL website as I've never really noticed it before.

 

[bicbasher]

What is the purpose of this mixed mode surcharge? It seems to go against the concept of having a zonal pricing system. Is it explained clearly on the TFL website as I've never really noticed it before.

Mike or someone else may be able to explain the process a bit more clearly, but I believe it's a revenue issue to ensure both ATOC who price NR fares in the travelcard zones and TfL get a cut of the fare.

Mixed mode fares are nothing new in London with the paper fare for example from New Cross to Euston LU via London Terminals being a premium fare even before Oyster PAYG was introduced on National Rail services.

 

[transmanche]

Mike or someone else may be able to explain the process a bit more clearly, but I believe it's a revenue issue to ensure both ATOC who price NR fares in the travelcard zones and TfL get a cut of the fare.

Mixed mode fares are nothing new in London with the paper fare for example from New Cross to Euston LU via London Terminals being a premium fare even before Oyster PAYG was introduced on National Rail services.

Indeed. I don't if it applied to all fares; but of all the through LU/NR journeys I recall pre-Oyster, the through fare was the same as buying separate tickets for the LU and NR legs.

So it's better than it was - but not perfect. Of course, if more NR routes are absorbed into LO by TfL, then fewer routes will be affected by the 'surcharge'.
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Is it explained clearly on the TFL website as I've never really noticed it before.

The TfL website clearly shows that there are fares for TfL services and fares for NR services. And for the latter it explains when you're charged an NR fare, when you're charged a 'mixed-mode' through fare, or indeed when you're charged a TfL fare (as some NR routes charge TfL fares).

Links are to 2013 fare pages.
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Another example of why Oyster is not fit for purpose:roll:

Oyster's fit for purpose. It's the TOCs who aren't using it properly.

 

[bicbasher]

Indeed. I don't if it applied to all fares; but of all the through LU/NR journeys I recall pre-Oyster, the through fare was the same as buying separate tickets for the LU and NR legs.

So it's better than it was - but not perfect. Of course, if more NR routes are absorbed into LO by TfL, then fewer routes will be affected by the 'surcharge'.

I remember commuting from Forest Hill to Rotherhithe in the pre LO era and the ticket which was a Forest Hill to U2 return was almost certainly more expensive than a return to London Terminals. It worked out cheaper to buy a Zone 2-6 day travelcard than to use the mixed mode tickets.

Oyster has made it much more easier to charge the cheapest fare possible for the majority of journeys. Also worth noting that you travel from a Southern or Southeastern station and then join the ELL/SLL and touch out at one of the stops on the line, including those in the TfL owned core, it's also a NR rate fare, rather than mixed mode.

 

[Tetchytyke]

What is the purpose of this mixed mode surcharge? It seems to go against the concept of having a zonal pricing system. Is it explained clearly on the TFL website as I've never really noticed it before.

It's explained as clearly as it can be, if you look at the ticketing section.

There are three types of fare for Oyster PAYG: TfL only, National Rail only, and "through journey". These all work on the same zonal system, but the fares differ; sometimes the TfL priced fare is more expensive than the NR one. Outside of zone one the fares don't differ very much at all, but there is a significant premium for zone one if you use a "through fare".

Essentially ATOC members insisted on a premium if you use National Rail services and then transfer to a TfL service (e.g. Underground) to complete your journey. This was to ensure that they still received the full income for the section of journey on National Rail. This generally affects people in south London, as a fair proportion of National Rail services north of the river are actually priced by TfL.

 

[londonbridge]

Have they ever sorted out the situation whereby if the Thameslink core was closed and you used LU between London Bridge and Kings Cross, you ended up paying more on PAYG than you would by using Thameslink directly?

 

[bicbasher]

Have they ever sorted out the situation whereby if the Thameslink core was closed and you used LU between London Bridge and Kings Cross, you ended up paying more on PAYG than you would by using Thameslink directly?

I doubt it, which would suggest a phone call to the Oyster helpline the next day.

However, considering the London Bridge works, which will affect passengers changing for Charing Cross and Thameslink services takes affect next January, I suspect there will be a revision of fares if changing between the NR and LU stations, to either Southwark, Waterloo, Embankment, Charing Cross or any stations on the Thameslink core to the NR fare.