P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

[roversfan2001]

Those thinking this will put them out of business - who remembers the Wetherspoons boycot after COVID?

That was just a very small number of people shouting very loudly about something they knew nothing about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That was just a very small number of people shouting very loudly about something they knew nothing about.

I'm no fan of "Mr Wetherspoon", but I do know one of their employees, and he said it was blown up out of all proportion, and what they'd said wasn't "get lost and get another job", but rather "we think this is going to go on for a rather long time, we can furlough you but you might prefer to find another actual job, you will of course be welcome back once we reopen if you do choose to do that".

 

[WelshBluebird]

I'm no fan of "Mr Wetherspoon", but I do know one of their employees, and he said it was blown up out of all proportion, and what they'd said wasn't "get lost and get another job", but rather "we think this is going to go on for a rather long time, we can furlough you but you might prefer to find another actual job, you will of course be welcome back once we reopen if you do choose to do that".

You are right on that part. However he did also initially say no wages would be paid to staff until the furlough money came through (source, my partner works for Spoons). He did quickly backtrack on that probably due to the media outcry, but he absolutely wasn't the saint that some people are trying to claim he was!

 

[cactustwirly]

£5.15 (agency crew) versus £9.50 (minimum UK wage) per hour seem to be the key numbers.
P&O claims the £5.15 is competitive with other international operators.
That would presumably not apply to domestic UK routes (eg Cairnryan-Larne).
I'd be interested to know what Stena and DFDS pay their crews, and if they are facing an existential threat like P&O.
If P&O Ferries were losing a fortune on their prior rates, you'd think the opposition would be in the same boat, so to speak.
There has been repeated past industrial disputes on the French Dover ferries (now DFDS), not so much on Stena, I think.

Also applies to Cairnryan - Larne, as they are employed by an agency based in Guernsey on ships registered in Bermuda.

 

[Carlisle]

I am afraid that I don’t think that this is likely to put P&O out of business. They may have a bad few months or even a whole summer season, but after that people will be back to, ”Which one’s cheapest?”

If they survive this toxic period wouldn’t they likely ditch the P&O brand for something new ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they survive this toxic period wouldn’t they likely ditch the P&O brand for something new ?

To be fair that has happened before post-Zeebrugge.

 

[joncombe]

It seems astonishing to me they can run boats registered abroad, with employees with contracts based abroad on routes to and from the UK, year round and that this allows them to pay below minimum wage.

I'm sure if I tried to set up a bus company running routes entirely within the UK using vehicles registered abroad, drivers with contracts abroad paying less than the minimum wage it would not be long before my operation was shut down (if indeed it could ever start in the first place). I can't see any reason why this should seemingly be legal for ferries.

In addition seeing the broadcast today it was quite shameless. The boss of P&O admitted to breaching the law but seemed to think this was OK and they hadn't got any other options. Unbelievable. I hope the Government gives them a large fine and takes criminal action, but I won't hold my breath. Perhaps they could revoke the license to operate?

I know I certainly won't be using them!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sure if I tried to set up a bus company running routes entirely within the UK using vehicles registered abroad, drivers with contracts abroad paying less than the minimum wage it would not be long before my operation was shut down (if indeed it could ever start in the first place). I can't see any reason why this should seemingly be legal for ferries.

International maritime law, which is really meant to allow for ships to operate between countries without having to deal with however-many different sets of employment laws, but can be (and invariably is) misused in this way.

 

[Dai Corner]

International maritime law, which is really meant to allow for ships to operate between countries without having to deal with however-many different sets of employment laws, but can be (and invariably is) misused in this way.

Is it any different in principle to manufacturing things in low wage economies for sale in higher wage ones?

Or directing customer service calls from the First World to the Third?

 

[Tetchytyke]

The boss of P&O admitted to breaching the law but seemed to think this was OK and they hadn't got any other options.

It's always cheaper and easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.

It's not clear cut that P&O broke any laws, which shows how weak the laws are. And even if they did, it's easy enough to pay people off.

And they could have behaved worse: put the company into a pre-pack admin and the staff could well have been jettisoned for less.

 

[Wolfie]

It's amazing how many of the same people who damn the actions of TUs at any apparent opportunity seem totally willing to ignore, if not actively praise, even illegal behaviour by employers.

 

[thejuggler]

Also applies to Cairnryan - Larne, as they are employed by an agency based in Guernsey on ships registered in Bermuda.

As a UK route the crew will be paid UK minimum wage, if you know different tell the Committee as thats what the CEO said.

Of course this is still a cut if the sacked staff were paid more than NMW, which I'm sure they were as there were proper wage negotiations with unions, something else which will no doubt disappear.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Norbank does appear to have done a round trip Liverpool-Dublin today, but its oppo Norbay has not left Liverpool.

I doubt a tourist boycott of P&O Ferries would have much impact.
What matters is year-round bulk freight rates with logistics companies, who are much less emotional about these things.
If they go under, I'm sure most of the routes will be snapped up by grateful competitors (including Getlink/Eurotunnel).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hang on, weren't Eurotunnel forced to close their ferry subsidiary, MyFerryLink, because it was seen as them owning too much?

 

[BayPaul]

I find Peter Hebblethwaite's comments about this process difficult to comprehend. As I said before, under maritime law, sickening though it is, there is no real reason why, correctly handled, this could not have happened entirely legally. It appears that not only are P&O senior management ruthless, but they are also incompetent. Somehow this seems worse!

I think that the impact on the business will be severe. Something very noticeable is the disgust that the entire shipping industry are showing to P&O Ferries. I have seen comments even from senior management within P&O that 'this isn't my company any more' - I suspect that they will lose good management and struggle to rehire as well. Friends in the port industry are equally revolted at what is happening, and they may well make P&O's life more awkward when it comes to securing berthing slots, discounts and pilot exemption certificates. Open port duty means they can't just ban P&O, but they could certainly make life more difficult and expensive by effectively working to rule.

One interesting thing about the Dover route is that often freight operators have accounts with all 3 major providers (P&O, DFDS and Eurotunnel), and they leave it up to the individual driver to choose the most convenient sailing. That could well give more of a sentimental backlash than you would expect with a business to business relationship.

Hang on, weren't Eurotunnel forced to close their ferry subsidiary, MyFerryLink, because it was seen as them owning too much?

Effectively yes, though it closed before they actually got that far.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I was astonished to read in the last week that, since Brexit, the number of direct services sailing between the Republic of Ireland and the European continent has gone up from fewer than 5 to almost 40. The old “land bridge” across Britain is effectively dead for freight hauliers, and P&O’s actions will only have exacerbated that.

 

[Towers]

I was astonished to read in the last week that, since Brexit, the number of direct services sailing between the Republic of Ireland and the European continent has gone up from fewer than 5 to almost 40. The old “land bridge” across Britain is effectively dead for freight hauliers, and P&O’s actions will only have exacerbated that.

Yup. Little Englander mentality at its self-harming finest!

 

[jfollows]

Nils Pratley in The Guardian gets it pretty spot on again, as usual (https://www.theguardian.com/busines...ar/24/p-and-o-dubai-dp-world-britain-freeport): DP World is unfit, ministers spluttered their way through but in the end did nothing.

Nils Pratley on finance

P&O Ferries may not regret breaking law, but the UK should regret dealing with its owner

Nils Pratley

Dubai’s DP World has proved itself an unfit partner for Britain’s freeport programme

More than a few business chancers have appeared before Commons select committees over the years, but it’s hard to recall a chief executive who has admitted that his company carefully assessed its options and decided that breaking the law was its best bet.

Peter Hebblethwaite of P&O Ferries, the firm that sacked 800 seafarers last week, offered candour and cynicism in the same breath. “There’s absolutely no doubt that we were required to consult the unions. We chose not to do that,” he said. For good measure, he said he would take the same decision again.

Naturally, Hebblethwaite laced his account with pleas that P&O Ferries wasn’t viable unless it replaced its UK crew with foreign agency workers being paid salaries as low as £5.15 an hour. No doubt he’s correct about the many millions P&O has been losing amid the pandemic and energy crises, but this was a brazen attempt to claim that protecting wealthy parent DP World’s investment was more important than staying within the law. Trade unions would never accept P&O Ferries’ proposals, said Hebblethwaite, so there was no point negotiating with them.

Via video link from Dubai, Jesper Kristensen, the chief operating officer of marine services at DP World, weighed in that P&O Ferries was not a rogue part of the corporate empire. Hebblethwaite would not be sacked, the mass dismissal of the UK crew had been blessed in advance and DP loved doing business in the UK, where its major investments are the Thames and Solent port terminals.

Government ministers spluttered in the following session to explain why they had not immediately run off to the high court last week. The gist of it was that the Insolvency Service must be given time to get on top of the legal details. In due course, ministers would look to close any loopholes in the law to better protect employees.

Wherever those subplots lead, one move for the government ought to be straightforward: DP World, for all its wealth and state backing, cannot be considered a suitable partner for the UK’s freeport programme. A company that declares a casual relationship with UK employment laws does not belong in a government-backed scheme. Nor, frankly, should it be here at all.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Hang on, weren't Eurotunnel forced to close their ferry subsidiary, MyFerryLink, because it was seen as them owning too much?

Well yes, the MyFerryLink operation essentially became DFDS.
I didn't mean Getlink would re-enter the ferry business, but if P&O Ferries vanished they would gain market share for Le Shuttle.

 

[paul1609]

Yup. Little Englander mentality at its self-harming finest!

One of our Kent MPs was interviewed on Irish TV and he asked the question as to if the removal of 500 Irish HGVs a week from Dover Town Centre, the M20 and M25 was actually a bad thing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of our Kent MPs was interviewed on Irish TV and he asked the question as to if the removal of 500 Irish HGVs a week from Dover Town Centre, the M20 and M25 was actually a bad thing.

It is to be fair a very good point. Through HGV traffic is not a good thing. It brings little to the economy other than the ferry operators (they sleep in the lorry, burn the fuel they brought with them and usually eat the food they brought with them) and causes pollution. I cannot see a problem if it ceased completely. We could get money from it by road tolling but TBH I'd rather it just went away.

There are problems with Brexit - many problems. This isn't one.

 

[zwk500]

It is to be fair a very good point. Through HGV traffic is not a good thing. It brings little to the economy other than the ferry operators (they sleep in the lorry, burn the fuel they brought with them and usually eat the food they brought with them) and causes pollution. I cannot see a problem if it ceased completely. We could get money from it by road tolling but TBH I'd rather it just went away.

There are problems with Brexit - many problems. This isn't one.

The loss of freight traffic through Dover port does, however, mean ultimately less revenue for the ferry companies based there and therefore at some point they will need to reduce their cost base. Whether it had to happen this way is another question, but cheaper staff were going to be coming in at some point regardless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The loss of freight traffic through Dover port does, however, mean ultimately less revenue for the ferry companies based there and therefore at some point they will need to reduce their cost base. Whether it had to happen this way is another question, but cheaper staff were going to be coming in at some point regardless.

Or, more sensibly, a reduction in service frequency and the number of companies serving the route in line with reduced demand.

I think this highlights that what should have happened is P&O going bust. Yes, that'd have resulted in the staff losing their jobs anyway, and on far worse terms, but it would have resulted in the economic adaptation of capacity to demand.

 

[zwk500]

Or, more sensibly, a reduction in service frequency and the number of companies serving the route in line with reduced demand.

I think this highlights that what should have happened is P&O going bust. Yes, that'd have resulted in the staff losing their jobs anyway, and on far worse terms, but it would have resulted in the economic adaptation of capacity to demand.

Whichever path is taken, it leads to less jobs for the people of Dover and East Kent. As well as sending lorries via a longer route, pumping far more emissions into the atmosphere we share with all living beings.

 

[paul1609]

The last figures I saw Dover Port was handling 2.6 million lorries per year compared to 1.6 on Euro tunnel. I'm not sure what percentage of that travels to the Irish Republic?
The problem for all the ferries I understand is the price of fuel futures has gone up astronomically but specifically on the Dover Calais route Irish Ferries have entered the route adding 3 ships capacity which has dropped freight costs as they try to buy in to the market.

 

[Towers]

Whichever path is taken, it leads to less jobs for the people of Dover and East Kent. As well as sending lorries via a longer route, pumping far more emissions into the atmosphere we share with all living beings.

Indeed. A "land bridge" situation has its drawbacks, certainly, but keeping the ports in healthy business and well serviced by ferry routes is most certainly not a bad thing for an island nation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. A "land bridge" situation has its drawbacks, certainly, but keeping the ports in healthy business and well serviced by ferry routes is most certainly not a bad thing for an island nation.

There's enough UK <-> Europe demand to maintain a service. Additional traffic not contributing to the UK economy is not welcome. Mainland European countries can't really avoid it (but can tax it, e.g. via the Swiss Vignette or the German LKW-Maut) but we can and should.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was astonished to read in the last week that, since Brexit, the number of direct services sailing between the Republic of Ireland and the European continent has gone up from fewer than 5 to almost 40. The old “land bridge” across Britain is effectively dead for freight hauliers, and P&O’s actions will only have exacerbated that.

One of the reasons Irish Ferries have turned up at Dover is so as to maximise their "land bridge" revenue (Dublin-Holyhead and Dover-Calais).
All the operators on these routes will be experiencing lower traffic since Brexit, which won't have helped P&O.

 

[paul1609]

Whichever path is taken, it leads to less jobs for the people of Dover and East Kent. As well as sending lorries via a longer route, pumping far more emissions into the atmosphere we share with all living beings.

Apparently loss of the land bridge traffic is far more significant for Holyhead that it is fro Kent.

 

[zwk500]

Apparently loss of the land bridge traffic is far more significant for Holyhead that it is fro Kent.

This doesn't surprise me.