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P&O Ferries - mass redundancies without consultation

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Trainbike46

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The other question has to be is there sufficent business to support the current ferry operators, if the answer is no then P&O have either got a plan to undercut the other operators, or have misjudged it all and will ultimatlely fail. They withdrew Hull - Zeebrugge and Hull - Rotterdam as a passenger operation has been questionable even before Covid. There will still be a demand for a purely HGV/freight operation but cheap flights and the Channel Tunnel have eaten into the market to such an extent that some capacity reductions are required. (BTW I am not considering the rights and wrongs of the P&O action, just considering if the current provision is sustainable)
Is there overcapacity though, and if so on which routes? If the issue is at Dover-Calais, they could switch to a smaller operation (for example using 2 ships instead of 3). Or potentially move ships around between the routes to get more appropriate ships for the right route.

However, given that Stena line and Brittany Ferries are getting new, bigger ferries it would seem unlikely that there truly is that much overcapacity in the market overall
 
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Struner

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One thing that nobody has mentioned is that I suspect that P&O have effectively sacked 1600 people today. Each ship would have 2 crews - one onboard, and one on leave. The crew on leave technically don't have a contract until they return, so they are presumably also out of a job, but wouldn't be included in the published numbers. I think that one report said that P&O Ferries had a total of around 4000 employees, and one of their statements said that this decision safeguarded around 2200 people, so that would add up

Thank you for your comments!
Most replies on this thread seem to be devoid of knowledge of international maritime law.
 

BayPaul

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The other question has to be is there sufficent business to support the current ferry operators, if the answer is no then P&O have either got a plan to undercut the other operators, or have misjudged it all and will ultimatlely fail. They withdrew Hull - Zeebrugge and Hull - Rotterdam as a passenger operation has been questionable even before Covid. There will still be a demand for a purely HGV/freight operation but cheap flights and the Channel Tunnel have eaten into the market to such an extent that some capacity reductions are required. (BTW I am not considering the rights and wrongs of the P&O action, just considering if the current provision is sustainable)
The market is decent at present. Brexit and Covid hit hard, but underlying is pretty good. P&O have a history of giving up on routes that should be good, but then other operators coming in on the same or similar routes and doing very well. This has happened on: Felixstowe-Rotterdam & Zeebrugge, Fleetwood - Larne, Portsmouth - Le Havre, Portsmouth - Bilbao, Rosslare - Cherbourg in recent years. I think their high cost base and lack of vision seems to hit them badly. I think they really need to be bought by someone who really care about running ferries - Stena do a far better job, and continually expand.

On Dover - Calais, they are the long established, but shrinking operator. At one time (P&O Stena years) they had 6 ships on the route, plus 3 freight ships to Zeebrugge, only really competing with Seafrance. Now they are down to just 4(occasionally 5) ships, and are competing with DFDS who have 6 split between their 2 routes, plus new entry Irish Ferries with 3. They should be able to easily outcompete these new entrants, but don't seem to even try. I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear. Horrible although what is happening today is, it does at least give the company a better chance of surviving. If they can take this chance, then they can perhaps be great again, but I have my doubts.
Thank you for your comments!
Most replies on this thread seem to be devoid of knowledge of international maritime law.
Thanks! I've been struggling to keep up - not often such a fast flowing thread on my specialist subject.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I notice from social media that a lot of past, current or future customers of P&O Cruises are now directing complaints towards that (entirely separate) company.

Looking ahead, I wouldn't be surprised if Carnival Cruises seeks some kind of reparation from DP World for the reputational damage to their shared brand.
That's a good idea - I've just suggested that to them!
 

Spartacus

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The market is decent at present. Brexit and Covid hit hard, but underlying is pretty good. P&O have a history of giving up on routes that should be good, but then other operators coming in on the same or similar routes and doing very well. This has happened on: Felixstowe-Rotterdam & Zeebrugge, Fleetwood - Larne, Portsmouth - Le Havre, Portsmouth - Bilbao, Rosslare - Cherbourg in recent years. I think their high cost base and lack of vision seems to hit them badly. I think they really need to be bought by someone who really care about running ferries - Stena do a far better job, and continually expand.

On Dover - Calais, they are the long established, but shrinking operator. At one time (P&O Stena years) they had 6 ships on the route, plus 3 freight ships to Zeebrugge, only really competing with Seafrance. Now they are down to just 4(occasionally 5) ships, and are competing with DFDS who have 6 split between their 2 routes, plus new entry Irish Ferries with 3. They should be able to easily outcompete these new entrants, but don't seem to even try. I wouldn't be surprised to see them disappear. Horrible although what is happening today is, it does at least give the company a better chance of surviving. If they can take this chance, then they can perhaps be great again, but I have my doubts.

Thanks! I've been struggling to keep up - not often such a fast flowing thread on my specialist subject.

From what you say it almost sounds like they if it wasn't for the problems it would create regarding jobs, that they might be better going under. It always seemed like didn't really want the Hull - Zeebrugge route before they dropped it at the start of last year, and it could have been marketed far better, I'd hate for it to become a lost route, it was one of my favourites. I'd love to see a Cork - Swansea ferry again, but that's a different matter entirely.
 

Snow1964

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It’s not just the Dubai based ownership and management that have played dirty, it is lots of alternative crew members that came to UK, and boarded buses for the ports.

They obviously knew what they were training for, accepted being gagged to not spill beans in advance, and knew they were taking others jobs. Whilst some may have been desperate for work, it is a very cloak and dagger, cutthroat way of furthering your career.

If the Government wanted to do something it could ask customs and immigration to do 100% detailed checks which would make it very unpopular with users, Government officials doing partial or little checks is effectively accepting it.
 

zwk500

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If the Government wanted to do something it could ask customs and immigration to do 100% detailed checks which would make it very unpopular with users, Government officials doing partial or little checks is effectively accepting it.
Why would this government (tbh any government, but particularly this one) do something to help the RMT?
 

thejuggler

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I thought there were restrictions on replacing people made redundant? As its the job not the person per se that is redundant - i.e. not needed. I know it can get a bit murky though
Not restrictions, but laws around unfair dismissal. However the penalty for unfair dismissal is a maximum of 90 days pay.

P&O will have priced in the costs for doing what they are doing. Redundancy now, unfair dismissal cases will take at least a year. A few million against £100m loss is peanuts to the Dubai Royal family who control DP world.

Its an offence not to leave a vessel when instructed to do so by the Captain. The Dutch captain of Pride of Hull wasn't instructing them to leave and wouldn't let anyone board, although I understand all staff and crew have now left. I wonder if they managed to sabotage any of the systems before doing so.
 

WelshBluebird

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There's a screenshot of an email / message doing the rounds on Twitter and Reddit that seems to show P&O recruiting security staff and giving a fairly detailed plan of those staff staying in hotels in Ashford Tuesday night, spending yesterday on training and then being deployed to ships today with P&O clearly expecting "a possible risk of backlash" as they put it due to mass redundancies! Certainly doesn't paint them in the best of lights even if what they are doing is technically legal due to regular employment laws not applying. Of course it could be fake, but would watch with what is being seen to have happened!
 

duncombec

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The vessels on Dover to Calais with P&O are registered in Cyprus.

This is true but your reply was to a quote about DFDS crews
Thanks - I meant to go back and check but didn't!

Playing Devil's Advocate - have the RMT been open or receptive to addressing the cost challenges ? I suspect not given their usual belligerent media briefing approach.
Reporting seems to suggest the RMT were caught unawares of what was going to happen. Indeed, Natalie Elphicke MP suggests this is contrary to assurances she and they were given.

BBC Radio Kent have carried reports saying that those affected will not agree to interviews because they are worried they won't get the redundancy payment if they talk to the media - the one statement they have managed to get was "voiced by a reporter" at the person's request.

Local paper (Kent Online) is also suggesting that there are apprentices on their "week off" who have course work at the Port and are fearful of its disposal, as they (along with others on "week off") haven't been told how they can get their items.
One woman, who does not want to be named, has a husband and son who lost their jobs on Dover ferries overnight. She said: "When P&O suspended sailings this morning crews were waiting on the ships with no idea what was happening – even the captains didn't know.

"Then pictures emerged of three coach loads of foreign workers waiting at ports to take their jobs. They were already wearing P&O uniforms - yet the staff still hadn't been told they were being let go.

"They were told they had five minutes to get their stuff and get off the ships. These guys are week on week off workers who have called these ships home for half of the year every year. They have personal effects in lockers which they can't get to - clothes, bedding, photographs and in some cases financial documents which will be taken out and thrown.

"My son is an apprentice. With 350 people competing for jobs at sea, they're unlikely to be able to find a ferry company to take them on to finish their apprenticeships. Their coursework is on the ships waiting to be thrown out. It's highly immoral and another insult from P&O to East Kent. "
This looks slightly more detailed than the usual "got it off Facebook" reporting style, but obviously caution required as it may just be a case of "not told yet".
 

Struner

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Thanks! I've been struggling to keep up - not often such a fast flowing thread on my specialist subject.
Yes, just came across the thread myself then.
But the ignorant are in good company.
There was a “debate” in the smaller house of the rUK parliament jost now.
Most, if not all, seemed to be ignorant of international maritime law.
& that seems to include Alex Johnson’s underling ( no surprise there )
-
& on a different matter:
As for the “inter-uk” ferries? Surely they could always have been subjected to a “inter-uk” regime? Like trains, buses, (helicopters )
(Nothing to do with the brexit. )
 

johncrossley

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This means there is no foot passenger service between Dover and Calais again, unless DFDS intend to start one up.
 

Trainbike46

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This means there is no foot passenger service between Dover and Calais again, unless DFDS intend to start one up.
Do Irish Ferries offer a footpassenger connection? it is possible to select the option for booking but it then shows all sailings as sold out
 

Bletchleyite

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Do Irish Ferries offer a footpassenger connection? it is possible to select the option for booking but it then shows all sailings as sold out

I think they don't offer it on that route but do offer it on their longer routes to Ireland hence it being on their website.

It's now a bit niche, though, as it's as easy to head to Gatwick and fly, or if you want to experience a ferry without a car just borrow a bicycle off someone, as those are allowed. Park it at the port at the other end if it's not useful to your trip.
 

Trainbike46

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I assume eurostar is the main reason foot traffic on that route is very low, right? Personally, I've always found eurostar was easier and cheaper
 

brad465

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Why would this government (tbh any government, but particularly this one) do something to help the RMT?
If there's enough outrage, which is looking likely to be the case here, the Government will get involved in pursuit of popularity/opportunism, even if there isn't much that can be done by them. This government in particular are largely populist in nature, so try to jump on whatever bandwagon is going. We saw similar with the European Super league concept last year.
 

Struner

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Yes, just came across the thread myself then.
But the ignorant are in good company.
There was a “debate” in the smaller house of the RailUK Forums parliament jost now.
Most, if not all, seemed to be ignorant of international maritime law.
& that seems to include Alex Johnson’s underling ( no surprise there )
-
& on a different matter:
As for the “inter-uk” ferries? Surely they could always have been subjected to a “inter-uk” regime? Like trains, buses, (helicopters )
(Nothing to do with the brexit. )
Where the forum put RailUK” it should have said cUK”?
 

Bletchleyite

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I assume eurostar is the main reason foot traffic on that route is very low, right? Personally, I've always found eurostar was easier and cheaper

Eurostar, budget airlines and coaches. Hardly anyone wants to go to Calais (or, from France, Dover), it's not up to much, so why not go direct to the place you're wanting to go to e.g. Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam etc rather than faffing with separate trains and ferries?
 

johncrossley

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I assume eurostar is the main reason foot traffic on that route is very low, right? Personally, I've always found eurostar was easier and cheaper

As long as you book well in advance. If you want to turn up and go, Eurostar is prohibitively expensive.
 

ashkeba

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I assume eurostar is the main reason foot traffic on that route is very low, right? Personally, I've always found eurostar was easier and cheaper
The Calais Day Tripper rail&sail was useful for both Kent and short-notice but it was withdrawn during the pandemic. But I doubt that broke P&O.
 

morrisobrien

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Would not wish to be one of the new crew members when/if they sail again.
Surely,initially,they will get plenty of stick from passengers.
 

mmh

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Their "biggest" route will be Dover - Calais, but that traffic has been decimated ever since the Channel Tunnel opened. Their other routes are all a bit marginal in the scheme of things.
Way back when this thread started, one of the first posts had a link to an article saying they transported 15% of imports to Britain. If that's true, that's not insignificant and of far more political and practical importance than tourist traffic.
 

deep south

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Hmm, they could afford to give their Dubai parent £270million in 2020 - money straight out of the business - but couldn't afford to sustain a £100M loss in 2021? How much furlough money did they take, I wonder.

I am sure they have factored in their reputational impact but P&O cruises must be very unhappy at the moment.
 

Gloster

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Could it be a coincidence that this has come at a time when the supply of oil is a major concern and the government will be particularly reluctant to upset a Gulf state, even if Dubai is not a major oil producer. Not that the government was ever likely to do much more than huff and puff when it is a case of employers versus workers and unions.
 

island

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Would not wish to be one of the new crew members when/if they sail again. Surely,initially,they will get plenty of stick from passengers.
They really won’t. The number of people who know and care enough to make the point but not enough to boycott P&O is minuscule.
 

Ediswan

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They really won’t. The number of people who know and care enough to make the point but not enough to boycott P&O is minuscule.
Some passengers who have already booked and paid for their tickets might decide to make their feelings known.
 

northwichcat

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But registering your ship in Liberia or wherever doesn't get you round UK law in relation to employees or passengers does it? You can't electrocute a passenger on board with faulty wiring and then say - registered in Liberia. No liability in Liberian law for that, sorry. Or you have to sue in the Liberian Courts.

Where the ship is registered isn't important, it's the employment contract that's relevant.
 

Starmill

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The video to staff leaked to the press includes the expression "employment terminated by redundancy".

If that's the case they are likely to be found in breach of English law on redundancy. A minimum 45 day consultation is a requirement.

This has damaged the brand significantly too. Why couldn't the company simply announce a consultation like everyone else? What an appalling approach.
 

mmh

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The video to staff leaked to the press includes the expression "employment terminated by redundancy".

If that's the case they are likely to be found in breach of English law on redundancy. A minimum 45 day consultation is a requirement.
The conversation on this thread has largely been about that. You're a little late to the event, I'm afraid.
 
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