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But I think the op needs to understand that this now won’t be an ‘appeal’ in the sense of the penalty fare appeal process but a communication to the railway company concerned prosecution department asking for them to show leniency on this.
I’m assuming the op made formal appeals which were rejected as made out of time if nothing else then failed to pay the penalty fare and it’s escalated.
Clearly if you didn't receive any correspondence until after 21 days telling you where to appeal and with what reference, and therefore couldn't appeal within 21 days, then I understand why you feel it is unjust.
If you feel you were misled because you failed to read the email which said collect tickets before journey, then I can't see how to defend that.
Unfortunately, nationally the railway is not very consistent in applying some of its policies, from memory if you had boarded at previous station, (Holton Heath, which I don't think has a ticket collection point), might have been treated differently and allowed ticket collection at interchange point.
You now need to correspond and explain (not appeal) and hope rail company understands and drops it.
That’s not the case. People here are advising you on a course of action. Read that advice carefully. Draft up your proposed letter for people to help you get it as good as it can be. It’s worth trying.
It should be noted that if a Penalty Fare was issued, the Penalty Fare notice explains how to appeal. If a Penalty Fare was not issued, there is no legal right to an appeal. Accordingly, I would not recommend posters dwell on the question of whether an "appeal" was offered.
I don't remember recieving any paperwork at the time although on the appeal website there was a photo of a penalty fare notice which I don't think I was ever shown/given and I have checked anywhere and everywhere that I would have put it if I was given it.
So I don’t think you’ve been penalty fared. Why do you think you have been? You’d have been given a notice. How have you been appealing without even a notice number to hand?
So I don’t think you’ve been penalty fared. Why do you think you have been? You’d have been given a notice. How have you been appealing without even a notice number to hand?
If there's a photo of a penalty fare notice on the appeal website, do you think it may be possible that the inspector issued a penalty fare but did not hand it to the passenger at the time? This would be a procedural error, though not one that would prevent a prosecution.
And if a reminder letter was issued, perhaps they used the number from that.
If there's a photo of a penalty fare notice on the appeal website, do you think it may be possible that the inspector issued a penalty fare but did not hand it to the passenger at the time? This would be a procedural error, though not one that would prevent a prosecution.
And if a reminder letter was issued, perhaps they used the number from that.
Yeah, I have already looked into a lot of transport focus's material as well as potential court proceedings including a formal request for information of the cctv of when i was issued the notice since I don't think I have the original penalty fare notice receipt and I would like to know if I was in fact given one and the guard followed the procedure correctly.
I also do not recall him explicitly stating the amount to pay which is required in their policy. I was hoping the AlterEgo guy could help me with the letter he was talking about, im assuming I need to email SWR directly and argue that my situation is a "no net loss to industry situation" with all the documentation of the purchase of the tickets and the tickets themselves as well as any relevant context.
If you get started on a draft of what you want to say then people here will help refine it for you - that's the best way to get the draft ready and as good as it can be
This is all a bit tricky because you have either lost or never had paperwork that might or might not have been given to you, have not shared (or no longer have to share) copies of things you have done in this case, like copies of the appeals you submitted, exactly where or how you submitted them etc, we still are not 100% sure if you were even given a Penalty Fare.
You have my sympathy but if you can help us help you it stands a greater chance of things moving in the right direction.
The whole case is unfortunate - the ticket you bought (off Peak Single) is one that would have been exactly the same price if you had just bought it at the ticket office or from a ticket machine a few minutes before you got on the train, which would have guaranteed the ticket was 'in your hand' - the railway encourages people to book on line or in advance (so reduce costs to them) but then when someone fails to understand / fails to read booking instructions after buying on line that they needed to print off their tickets the same railway then penalises them.... for someone who just wants to buy a ticket and get on a train to make a journey it should not be this problematic, but it's unfortunate that it is what it is.
I think the info on how to appeal is on the notice you would have been given on the train or on the reverse of it.
That’s not the case. People here are advising you on a course of action. Read that advice carefully. Draft up your proposed letter for people to help you get it as good as it can be. It’s worth trying.
If there's a photo of a penalty fare notice on the appeal website, do you think it may be possible that the inspector issued a penalty fare but did not hand it to the passenger at the time? This would be a procedural error, though not one that would prevent a prosecution.
And if a reminder letter was issued, perhaps they used the number from that.
so just to clarify the Guard / ticket Inspector issued this Penalty Fare to you, printed it, kept it themselves, but took this photo of it and gave you this photo?
If there's a photo of a penalty fare notice on the appeal website, do you think it may be possible that the inspector issued a penalty fare but did not hand it to the passenger at the time? This would be a procedural error, though not one that would prevent a prosecution.
And if a reminder letter was issued, perhaps they used the number from that.
This appears most likely - it wouldn't be the first time we have seen this. Just an inspector trying to save themselves some time but also not actually complying with the law.
If there's a photo of a penalty fare notice on the appeal website, do you think it may be possible that the inspector issued a penalty fare but did not hand it to the passenger at the time? This would be a procedural error, though not one that would prevent a prosecution.
But how does one separate the "inspector didn't give me the PF" from the "I refused to take the PF from the inspector", it would be the same outcome (the inspector taking the photo to show it was issued), but the latter wouldn't be a procedural error.
But how does one separate the "inspector didn't give me the PF" from the "I refused to take the PF from the inspector", it would be the same outcome (the inspector taking the photo to show it was issued), but the latter wouldn't be a procedural error.
This appears most likely - it wouldn't be the first time we have seen this. Just an inspector trying to save themselves some time but also not actually complying with the law.
Yeah, I received a penalty fare notice letter. If I had known I had to pay within a certain period to pay the lesser amount I would probably have paid it. My main problem is that I was woken up right before this happened and still half asleep, secondly, this was months ago so I don't 100% remember everything that was said. However the guard was really reassuring and just took my details and let me go on with my day, If I knew I had been fined and was told the appeal process properly I would have appealed immediately.
My only advice is to pay it at this stage. There may be areas of potential challenge but I don’t expect the TOC or court to be particularly interested in listening to them, to be honest.
Yeah, I received a penalty fare notice letter. If I had known I had to pay within a certain period to pay the lesser amount I would probably have paid it. My main problem is that I was woken up right before this happened and still half asleep, secondly, this was months ago so I don't 100% remember everything that was said. However the guard was really reassuring and just took my details and let me go on with my day, If I knew I had been fined and was told the appeal process properly I would have appealed immediately.
Since I didn't know I had to appeal or pay, this was the first document I received. It wasn't even made clear to me at the time that I had broken the law, as I suppose I did from what people have said, and that I had been charged.
Since I didn't know I had to appeal or pay, this was the first document I received. It wasn't even made clear to me at the time that I had broken the law, as I suppose I did from what people have said, and that I had been charged.
So you kept no copies of what you sent or what they sent back?
I believe there is a way/ provision to allow you to argue on extenuating circumstances that an appeal be allowed to be submitted after the 21 days limit- but that’s probably too late now.
It’s bad luck you didn’t find this forum at an earlier stage as people could have helped you attempt that.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Been mulling over your case but not sure I can think of a genuinely best way forward.
Trying to summarise - and none of this is intended to sound critical of you - hopefully this is correct
1) you bought legitimate and valid tickets for a journey
2) you did not appreciate / understand / read the instructions at time of purchase that you had to print these tickets off before boarding your initial train so you had no physical ticket to show on the train
3) you fell asleep on the journey were, woken in a tired state for a ticket check and could not produce a ticket
4) You were issued with a Penalty Fare but not given the Penalty fare paperwork with the full details including how to appeal on it (but you can't prove you were not given it) so at that point you didn't really understand what had happened or how to go about submitting an Appeal
5) In due course but after the 21 day appeal deadline you tried to appeal (more than once) but your appeal was rejected by virtue of it being lodged after the 21 day deadline
6) You did not keep copies of your appeal wording, nor have copies of the appeal decision replies
7) You did not, at the end of that process, pay the Penalty Fare sum demanded
8) You have subsequently received a demand for the total amount of the Penalty fare + new ticket
9) You are being threatened with court action if you do not pay this
If any of the above is incorrect please do correct it.
From the forum suggestions are
a) It has been suggested by @enyoueffsea post #45 that you should pay this to prevent escalation. Have you done this now or not?
b) It has been suggested by @AlterEgopost #22 that you write to them, explain you had a valid ticket, it has been used not refunded and asking if they will cancel the request for the money the railway are now seeking. Have you done this now or not?
My advice is that you must not let this escalate further as anything from this point on that involves escalation - especially to any sort of court process, will cost you even more than this to sort out (and even if it went to court the key cause of the problem - that you were never actually given the Penalty fare paperwork as you should have been - is not something it sounds like you can prove, so even if magistrates sympathetic to your situation you'd presumably still by found guilt y of some sort of ticket offence with all that comes from that)
So maybe your best best is some sort of combination of (a) and (b) - ie pay the sum being asked for but then try to write to them about the situation, and in particular the way the PF was not give to you, and ask for some sort of good will refund of that. It's along shot but I can see no harm in asking
People here would help you get the wording of any letter to them as good as it can be.
So you kept no copies of what you sent or what they sent back?
I believe there is a way/ provision to allow you to argue on extenuating circumstances that an appeal be allowed to be submitted after the 21 days limit- but that’s probably too late now.
It’s bad luck you didn’t find this forum at an earlier stage as people could have helped you attempt that.
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
Been mulling over your case but not sure I can think of a genuinely best way forward.
Trying to summarise - and none of this is intended to sound critical of you - hopefully this is correct
1) you bought legitimate and valid tickets for a journey
2) you did not appreciate / understand / read the instructions at time of purchase that you had to print these tickets off before boarding your initial train so you had no physical ticket to show on the train
3) you fell asleep on the journey were, woken in a tired state for a ticket check and could not produce a ticket
4) You were issued with a Penalty Fare but not given the Penalty fare paperwork with the full details including how to appeal on it (but you can't prove you were not given it) so at that point you didn't really understand what had happened or how to go about submitting an Appeal
5) In due course but after the 21 day appeal deadline you tried to appeal (more than once) but your appeal was rejected by virtue of it being lodged after the 21 day deadline
6) You did not keep copies of your appeal wording, nor have copies of the appeal decision replies
7) You did not, at the end of that process, pay the Penalty Fare sum demanded
8) You have subsequently received a demand for the total amount of the Penalty fare + new ticket
9) You are being threatened with court action if you do not pay this
If any of the above is incorrect please do correct it.
From the forum suggestions are
a) It has been suggested by @enyoueffsea post #45 that you should pay this to prevent escalation. Have you done this now or not?
b) It has been suggested by @AlterEgopost #22 that you write to them, explain you had a valid ticket, it has been used not refunded and asking if they will cancel the request for the money the railway are now seeking. Have you done this now or not?
My advice is that you must not let this escalate further as anything from this point on that involves escalation - especially to any sort of court process, will cost you even more than this to sort out (and even if it went to court the key cause of the problem - that you were never actually given the Penalty fare paperwork as you should have been - is not something it sounds like you can prove, so even if magistrates sympathetic to your situation you'd presumably still by found guilt y of some sort of ticket offence with all that comes from that)
So maybe your best best is some sort of combination of (a) and (b) - ie pay the sum being asked for but then try to write to them about the situation, and in particular the way the PF was not give to you, and ask for some sort of good will refund of that. It's along shot but I can see no harm in asking
People here would help you get the wording of any letter to them as good as it can be.
Yes, I paid the fine after reading through the bylaws as it seems clear that the court wouldn't care whether you purchased a ticket or not which is completely insane in my opinion, the fact that this is actually a criminal offence. I did write to SWR to ask them to drop the penalty but they didn't respond.
I don't understand how the law can work like this, punishing people for simple mistakes.
Yes, I paid the fine after reading through the bylaws as it seems clear that the court wouldn't care whether you purchased a ticket or not which is completely insane in my opinion, the fact that this is actually a criminal offence. I did write to SWR to ask them to drop the penalty but they didn't respond.
I don't understand how the law can work like this, punishing people for simple mistakes.
The offence is being unable to show a valid ticket when requested by a railway official - so the court would have no choice but to find you guilty of that even if the Magistrates did care
basically dates back to Victorian era laws that make it a criminal offence not to be able to show a valid ticket when asked by a member of staff - dates back to an era where humans looked at tickets at platform gates and would not have let you through a gate without an actual ticket to show them - so you would (in those days) never end up making such an honest mistake.
In a modern context the problem with your situation is that you could (obviously you did not but the staff would not know either way) print off that ticket, give it to someone else to use, then travel with the electronic booking receipt and pretend you did not know you needed to print it off. There will be deliberate fare evaders who do exactly that which means everyone gets treated as if they 'might' have done that.
With respect we don't know who you wrote to at SWR (prosecutions team / customer services / managing director etc etc?) or what you said in that letter because you say you can't post it here, and if it was thus written in a way that would have had any realistic chance of success if we can't see it.
The offer here is to have another go at that to see if you get anywhere - with help from expertise here - to see if they can be persuaded as a goodwill gesture to refund some or all of the money you have had to pay.
But I totally understand if you think that will be a waste of time and you just want to put this behind you and move on.
I'm not a lawyer but probably often happens - didn't see the change in speed limit sign on a road and carried on driving at 50mph in 40mph zone. simple mistake - also criminal offence.
There are plenty of people right now chancing travelling on just a reservation code in order to avoid paying their correct fare. Just because you made a genuine mistake doesn't mean that every person in the same situation is so innocent, many are doing it deliberately.
The railway has no way to know which are the genuine cases from the non-genuine - so both are treated the same - with a higher than normal fare. They have other options available - including researching your entire ticket purchasing history, and charging you for the time they've spent doing so - all of them harsher and more expensive than a penalty fare - the incidents they feel are being done deliberately rather than mistakenly will go down this route.
The end goal of the penalty fare is to make sure you travel with the correct ticket in future. It sounds like it has achieved it's aim in this case.
indeed - the sort of thing I'd be trying to do now would be to write
- indicate the ticket was retrieved later at Waterloo and used (so legit ticket bought and used, no refund made etc)
- accept that misunderstood need to print it before boarding thus unfortunately could not show it when demanded
- explain that PF not issued in a way which allowed the OP to either pay it promptly at value of 50 pounds 100 pounds or Appeal in the deadline period
- make it clear genuine error no intent to evade fare
- ask if the sum over 50 can be refunded as a good will gesture
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
There are plenty of people right now chancing travelling on just a reservation code in order to avoid paying their correct fare. Just because you made a genuine mistake doesn't mean that every person in the same situation is so innocent, many are doing it deliberately.
The railway has no way to know which are the genuine cases from the non-genuine - so both are treated the same - with a higher than normal fare. They have other options available - including researching your entire ticket purchasing history, and charging you for the time they've spent doing so - all of them harsher and more expensive than a penalty fare - the incidents they feel are being done deliberately rather than mistakenly will go down this route.
The end goal of the penalty fare is to make sure you travel with the correct ticket in future. It sounds like it has achieved it's aim in this case.
But the problem here for the OP is that they (for whatever reason) did not understand the penalty they were given nor what to do with it because they maintain or can not recall clearly that they were ever given it in hard copy (despite the railway having a photo of a printed copy of it....) and without being given it they had no ability to 'understand their rights'
the whole problem seems to me to hinge on this matter, but the problem is it will be the OPs word against the staff members I suspect.
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