Paid on-peak fare for off-peak train

[Omikron]

This morning I purchased an Anytime Day Return, intending to catch the last on-peak train of the morning with one change. It was delayed meaning I would miss the change, so I had to take the next direct train which happened to be off-peak.

The difference in price between anytime and off-peak day returns is significant and is greater than the compensation I would receive for the delay to my intended journey. Is there some way I can be compensated for this difference, considering the delay (which was not announced until I reached the platform) caused me to take a train for which a much cheaper ticket would have been valid?

 

[WesternLancer]

This morning I purchased an Anytime Day Return, intending to catch the last on-peak train of the morning with one change. It was delayed meaning I would miss the change, so I had to take the next direct train which happened to be off-peak.

The difference in price between anytime and off-peak day returns is significant and is greater than the compensation I would receive for the delay to my intended journey. Is there some way I can be compensated for this difference, considering the delay (which was not announced until I reached the platform) caused me to take a train for which a much cheaper ticket would have been valid?

Almost certainly, yes.

What you COULD have done would be immediately return to the ticket office and had a full refund for the Anytime ticket on the basis that the train was delayed and you were exercising your right to choose not to travel. Then bought a new Off Peak ticket for less for the train you did take.

Hopefully you kept your ticket?

See page 21 section 30 of the Conditions of Travel which deal with this and indicates the context in which you should be able to make a reasonable argument / claim for a partial refund, given what you actually had to do.
https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/National Rail Conditions of Travel.pdf

I had a situation just like this a while ago - I could not do the above (change tickets) because the replacement train off peak was not long enough after the delayed train to allow me to go back to the ticket office to get money back and new tickets, so I did what you did and used the Anytime.

I then wrote to the Train company (it was Cross Country), set out the circs, and asked for a refund of the difference (calculate the sum you are owned and state it to them so they understand what you are asking for).

At first they replied, clearly not having read my msg properly, refusing my claim on the basis that the train I had tried to get was not late enough for a delay refund - this was irrelevant as I was not claiming a delay refund.

I had to write again to point this out.

They then paid me the difference I asked for.

So I suspect you will have to claim, and be prepared to 'appeal' if they don't understand why you are claiming.

Set out the journey, times of the trains, indicate which train was late, the delay which meant you then were forced to travel later and thus why you are owed the difference between the Anytime and Off peak fare. Enclose your ticket as used. Keep a photocopy or photograph of your ticket, and a copy of the letter /e-mail you send them.

Good luck!

 

[WesternLancer]

This morning I purchased an Anytime Day Return, intending to catch the last on-peak train of the morning with one change. It was delayed meaning I would miss the change, so I had to take the next direct train which happened to be off-peak.

The difference in price between anytime and off-peak day returns is significant and is greater than the compensation I would receive for the delay to my intended journey. Is there some way I can be compensated for this difference, considering the delay (which was not announced until I reached the platform) caused me to take a train for which a much cheaper ticket would have been valid?

Also - if you need any more info / views it would probably be handy to state the journey you were doing and the intended / actual times traveled so readers can see full context etc.

Good luck with it.

 

[221129]

I cant see any right to a partial refund. However a goodwill gesture might be forthcoming.

 

[Omikron]

Also - if you need any more info / views it would probably be handy to state the journey you were doing and the intended / actual times traveled so readers can see full context etc.

Good luck with it.

Thanks for the detailed and helpful response.

I considered returning to the ticket office while I waited, as you described, but it was busier than usual and I was worried about missing the train while sorting out the refund and new ticket.

Fortunately I retained the ticket in anticipation of having to supply it as proof. I expected this would have happened to someone before, but had trouble finding information about it.

My journey was from Hemel Hempstead to Northampton (London Northwestern Railway). The train I intended to take was the 08:18, changing at Bletchley at 08:47. It was delayed by 20-25 minutes so I ended up taking the slightly delayed 08:47 from Hemel Hempstead direct to Northampton.

 

[WesternLancer]

so if I am correct that is £2.90 difference in fare if it were singles, but if it were a return it's a £17.50 difference (Anytime rtn ticket vs Off peak rtn ticket).
full range of fares here if you want to peruse
http://www.brfares.com/#home

If it were me I'd be asking for the difference in either case, even if as 221129 says you may not have a 'right' to it. It's got to be worth asking, esp if it were the return ticket you had bought.

Interestingly, it occurs to me to wonder if a peak timed train is so late that when you get on it the off peak validity time has kicked in, whether you are permitted to use off peak tickets anyway?

I assume not as the restriction code states
"Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:30."
yet the main page on BR fares states
"Outward: VALID AFTER 0829 MON-FRI
Return: BY ANY TRAIN"

Which is not in fact the same thing!

IE a 20 minute late running 08.18 train was still 'timed to depart' at 08.18, even if it actually departed at 08.38.
But I assume there is an industry protocol on this. After all people often just turn up to a station, buy at TVendingMachine and wait for the next train, if you did that, bought at machine at 08.31, got off peak, then got on the next train at 08.38 many would not notice that the train was actually a late running peak hour train would they.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Just playing devil’s advocate here for a moment, if the ticket wasn’t missold, and it was used, albeit on a train for which a cheaper ticket was valid, then surely delay repay is the mechanism for compensation due to the late running. If this was a big issue to the OP, they had 29 mins between the train they expected to catch and the one they actually did, so surely plenty of time to go back and exchange the ticket before using the one in their possession?

 

[RJ]

Just playing devil’s advocate here for a moment, if the ticket wasn’t missold, and it was used, albeit on a train for which a cheaper ticket was valid, then surely delay repay is the mechanism for compensation due to the late running. If this was a big issue to the OP, they had 29 mins between the train they expected to catch and the one they actually did, so surely plenty of time to go back and exchange the ticket before using the one in their possession?

Correct - Delay Repay is the appropriate remedy. As stated above it would be a matter of goodwill for the TOC to refund the difference between Anytime and Off Peak fares and not an entitlement.

 

[Omikron]

so if I am correct that is £2.90 difference in fare if it were singles, but if it were a return it's a £17.50 difference (Anytime rtn ticket vs Off peak rtn ticket).
full range of fares here if you want to peruse
http://www.brfares.com/#home

If it were me I'd be asking for the difference in either case, even if as 221129 says you may not have a 'right' to it. It's got to be worth asking, esp if it were the return ticket you had bought.

Interestingly, it occurs to me to wonder if a peak timed train is so late that when you get on it the off peak validity time has kicked in, whether you are permitted to use off peak tickets anyway?

I assume not as the restriction code states
"Not valid on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before 08:30."
yet the main page on BR fares states
"Outward: VALID AFTER 0829 MON-FRI
Return: BY ANY TRAIN"

Which is not in fact the same thing!

IE a 20 minute late running 08.18 train was still 'timed to depart' at 08.18, even if it actually departed at 08.38.
But I assume there is an industry protocol on this. After all people often just turn up to a station, buy at TVendingMachine and wait for the next train, if you did that, bought at machine at 08.31, got off peak, then got on the next train at 08.38 many would not notice that the train was actually a late running peak hour train would they.

I bought a return with a 16-25 railcard discount, so the exact difference in my case is £11.55. Not an enormous sum, and I could get half of that back with a delay claim, but I'll still try asking since it seemed to work for you (even if it took a couple of attempts).

Just playing devil’s advocate here for a moment, if the ticket wasn’t missold, and it was used, albeit on a train for which a cheaper ticket was valid, then surely delay repay is the mechanism for compensation due to the late running. If this was a big issue to the OP, they had 29 mins between the train they expected to catch and the one they actually did, so surely plenty of time to go back and exchange the ticket before using the one in their possession?

I see your point (and the similar points of others). In hindsight I did have enough time to exchange the ticket, but it took a while for me to realise I would miss the change, and then another while for me to realise I would end up on an off-peak train. By that point, the station was still busy and I wasn't sure how long the process would take.

If someone had a first class ticket but there were no available first class seats on the train, they would be able to claim a partial refund for the difference between standard and first. Should the 'refund logic' for tickets with seat restrictions not also apply to tickets with time restrictions?

 

[sheff1]

What you COULD have done would be immediately return to the ticket office and had a full refund for the Anytime ticket on the basis that the train was delayed and you were exercising your right to choose not to travel. Then bought a new Off Peak ticket for less for the train you did take.

An alternative for the future, if the ticket office is busy and you have the funds available, is just to buy an OffPeak ticket from a machine or online (if that is an option for this journey). You then have 28 days to claim the refund on the Anytime ticket which was not used due to the disruption.

Actually using the Anytime ticket for travel is what has muddied the waters.

 

[sheff1]

If someone had a first class ticket but there were no available first class seats on the train, they would be able to claim a partial refund for the difference between standard and first. Should the 'refund logic' for tickets with seat restrictions not also apply to tickets with time restrictions?

Not really. The 0818 train on which the the Anytime ticket was valid still ran .... as it was late the remedy, as others have said, is Delay Repay.

 

[Omikron]

An alternative for the future, if the ticket office is busy and you have the funds available, is just to buy an OffPeak ticket from a machine or online (if that is an option for this journey). You then have 28 days to claim the refund on the Anytime ticket which was not used due to the disruption.

Actually using the Anytime ticket for travel is what has muddied the waters.

That's what I should have done, and it even ran through my mind when I had the chance to do it, but I was concerned about having to prove that I didn't use the anytime ticket, since I could still have got on the delayed peak train.

Not really. The 0818 train on which the the Anytime ticket was valid still ran .... as it was late the remedy, as others have said, is Delay Repay.

You're right, but suppose it had been cancelled instead; I would have taken the same course of action and ended up in the same situation. If I had taken the delayed 08:18 instead of waiting for the later one, I would have had to get off at Bletchley and then board the very same later train anyway.

 

[yorkie]

You have two options in cases such as this:

1) Get a refund on the original ticket from the retailer (you do NOT have to do this immediately; you have 28 days to do this) and get a replacement ticket (but this must be bought before travel - if there is opportunity to buy at the origin station); or

2) Claim Delay Repay on the ticket that was used

If there was no time or mechanism to buy a replacement ticket, then I would explain the circumstances and they should take this into account when providing compensation, where this is lower than a refund + new fare

What are the sums involved?

 

[Omikron]

You have two options in cases such as this:

1) Get a refund on the original ticket from the retailer (you do NOT have to do this immediately; you have 28 days to do this) and get a replacement ticket (but this must be bought before travel - if there is opportunity to buy at the origin station); or

2) Claim Delay Repay on the ticket that was used

If there was no time or mechanism to buy a replacement ticket, then I would explain the circumstances and they should take this into account when providing compensation, where this is lower than a refund + new fare

What are the sums involved?

Since it would have been entirely possible for me to purchase an off-peak return after purchasing the anytime return and before boarding the off-peak train (had it immediately occurred to me to do so) it seems as though the standard delay repay is the only remaining option.

I should be able to claim back £6.61 for the delay alone, being between 30 and 60 minutes on a £26.45 return ticket. If I had managed to exchange it for an off-peak return, I would have got back £11.55.

At least I know what to do if this happens again.

 

[island]

If you were delayed by more than the relevant threshold for the train company you used, you should be able to claim DelayRepay. You say you held an Anytime Day Return for £26.45. Your intended journey on the 0818 should have got you to Bletchley at 0842 and thence to Northampton at 0909. The actual journey you took left Hemel Hempstead at 0900 rather than the timetabled 0847, arriving at Northampton at 0952, 14 minutes late for that train but 43 minutes later than your journey should have ended. In the event, this is also when you would have arrived if you had taken the 0818 which was terminated at Bletchley at 0924 and you would have wound up transferring onto the same train.

As you were delayed 30-59 minutes you would therefore be eligible for DelayRepay of 50% of the portion of the journey, which is £6.62.

Compensation is payable based on what did happen rather than what might have happened; no compensation is payable for the fact that you used an Anytime ticket when you could have used an OffPeak. Nevertheless, you may as well write in and ask for the difference back, the worst they can say is no. This would be instead of, and not additional to, DelayRepay – had you bought an OffPeak ticket to begin with you would only have been 14 minutes late based on the first possible train you might have taken.

 

[WesternLancer]

I think others have set out what you have a right to get, as a minimum, but I'd still be asking them for the higher figure and setting out the basis of why. Nothing to be lost by not asking for that.

I agree with Island on that.

What you then do when you get a reply depends on what that reply is I guess.

Hope you can post the outcome of your claim in due course.

 

[yorkie]

Please let us know what West Midlands Trains say; I'd be interested to find out. The sum is small in this case but it's an interesting principle and in some cases the sums could be much greater.

If you can send me a message with your reference number, I'll see if I can ask someone at WMT to look into it...

 

[WesternLancer]

Please let us know what West Midlands Trains say; I'd be interested to find out. The sum is small in this case but it's an interesting principle and in some cases the sums could be much greater.

If you can send me a message with your reference number, I'll see if I can ask someone at WMT to look into it...

Not as small as in the case I cited where XC delay meant I then only required an off peak ticket Nottm to derby which is circa 30p less (there were a group of us however, so it was about 6 x 30p at stake!).

XC having imposed an evening peak period , I was of the view that if they wanted to introduce an eve peak, but then could not run their trains to time within said peak, they were not going to inadvertently profit from me through such antics!

 

[Omikron]

I have now contacted customer relations with the full details of the circumstances of my journey and am awaiting their response. I'll post an update when I hear back from them.