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Paper season tickets to be phased out?

Paper or smartcard season tickets?

  • Paper season tickets

    Votes: 67 53.6%
  • Smartcard season tickets

    Votes: 58 46.4%

  • Total voters
    125
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Deerfold

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The MCard app won't even sell me a Metro Weekender. When I ask for one on the bus it slows down boarding while the driver tries to work out which buttons to press. Some have said they've only sold a few in all their years even though they think they're good value for money (which they are, if out for a weekend on different bus operators).

Which illustrates on of the problems; paper tickets are almost universal whereas apps and e-tickets are down to whatever system the TOC/PTE/CA is using.
The Weekender is fantastic value but very poorly advertised. Even I forget about it sometimes when it would have been a great option.
(For non-locals it allows travel throughout West Yorkshire from 1800 on a Friday for the next 54 hours for £8.50.
This compares with a day ticket at £6.70 on the bus, reducing to £5.00 if bought on the app in multiples of 10).
 
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jon0844

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Yesterday on my way back to Leeds: the woman in the seat in front had a ticket on her phone; the three people in the table seats across from me had a phone barcode, a pdf printout of a barcode and what I think is described as "bog roll"; yellow paper tickets with a barcode on.

I had a paper ticket. "I'm old school," I proudly announced. But I wasn't the oldest person of this group; that was one of the phone-holders. People adapt. If I could buy my tickets and upload them to an LNER smartcard* that would work for me just as well as a phone app (which requires me to have a smart phone, of course). Keep paper tickets for on-the-day sales?

*Effectively, that's how Oyster PAYG or MCard Day Tickets (in West Yorkshire) work.

As you say, people adapt. Smartcards are likely more accepted now people are used to paying with contactless payment cards (and they know how to check how much money they have, just as people can check a balance or what tickets are loaded, expiry dates etc on a ITSO card).

They're also used to getting barcodes and QR codes (and Aztec codes even if they don't know the difference - why should they?) for all sorts of things these days. Flying, going to events, to order at restaurants, collect shopping and so much more.

Paper tickets are tried and tested but more and more people are keen to get a ticket in another form for convenience, most notably not having to queue at a station and having a ticket already booked and paid for before going to a station. It is no longer for season ticket holders or regular passengers, as even 'first time' travellers are going to check before travelling and be offered some sort of mobile ticket.

It took a while for people to accept chip and pin, then contactless, but there is always a tipping point and I think we've just about reached it for rail, and it will be a rapid decline of paper ticket sales that finally gives the industry the green light to phase them out completely.
 

PeterC

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Your name and postcode allow me to find your card number.
I remember coming across a family with father and two sons all called John James. Father was known as Jack and the boys as James and John. Known a few others where father and son share the same first name and use their middle names.
 

Wallsendmag

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That’s only the case for a registered smartcard.
we’re the only people who don’t register cards

I remember coming across a family with father and two sons all called John James. Father was known as Jack and the boys as James and John. Known a few others where father and son share the same first name and use their middle names.
How does that change the fact that there is a national database ?
 

[.n]

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Messages
708
Well, unless there is a default paper/plastic ticket for those that couldn't conform to the 'norm', it would effectively be mandatory.

I certainly didn't mean mandatory, I just meant more than 50% of users (so the "norm") would use this method longer term. I'm a huge advocate of keeping paper based tickets (and for the potential for cash payment)
 

Wallsendmag

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I certainly didn't mean mandatory, I just meant more than 50% of users (so the "norm") would use this method longer term. I'm a huge advocate of keeping paper based tickets (and for the potential for cash payment)
I think the end of the CCST took a massive step forward this week. A lot of focus is now on their eradication.
 

bcarmicle

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Joined
11 May 2018
Messages
207
I think the end of the CCST took a massive step forward this week. A lot of focus is now on their eradication.
As in there's increased momentum in the industry to remove them this as of this week, or have there been customer-facing changes that I've missed?
 

skyhigh

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Joined
14 Sep 2014
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5,572
Not really.

Where was this momentum building?
How was this shown in any way?
What do you think it will lead to? Why?
There have been internal briefs coming out from RDG to TOCs etc. regarding reducing the future usage of card size tickets. Plans are afoot, but I can't really say any more than that as they're internal documents.
 

Deerfold

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There have been internal briefs coming out from RDG to TOCs etc. regarding reducing the future usage of card size tickets. Plans are afoot, but I can't really say any more than that as they're internal documents.
Thank you. That's a lot clearer, along with an explanation of why you and others can't be more specific.
 

AM9

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The most important question of those that @Deerfold posed was: What do you think it will lead to? Just because contactless/mobile ticketing might be more convenient for some and more profitable for the TOCs, it won't get very in it's momentum unless the replacement ticket who currently rely on CCSTs and don't/won't/can't use anything requiring a smartphone is clearly spelt out as a commitment that's concurrent with any removal of CCSTs.
 

Ianno87

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The most important question of those that @Deerfold posed was: What do you think it will lead to? Just because contactless/mobile ticketing might be more convenient for some and more profitable for the TOCs, it won't get very in it's momentum unless the replacement ticket who currently rely on CCSTs and don't/won't/can't use anything requiring a smartphone is clearly spelt out as a commitment that's concurrent with any removal of CCSTs.

Might the replacement be something along the lines of the E-Ticket machine that was recently on trial at Newcastle? Does that offer printing of the ticket?
 

skyhigh

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The most important question of those that @Deerfold posed was: What do you think it will lead to? Just because contactless/mobile ticketing might be more convenient for some and more profitable for the TOCs, it won't get very in it's momentum unless the replacement ticket who currently rely on CCSTs and don't/won't/can't use anything requiring a smartphone is clearly spelt out as a commitment that's concurrent with any removal of CCSTs.
Expect things such as booking offices issuing onto bog roll, TVMs and TOD issued onto bog roll, further push on smart/etickets etc. Changes that have already been happening, just accelerated.
 

AM9

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Might the replacement be something along the lines of the E-Ticket machine that was recently on trial at Newcastle? Does that offer printing of the ticket?
I would expect a paper ticket with an Aztec code to be globally replacing the CCSTs meaning that all gatelines would need to have an optical reader. That would be less mechanical hardware to need maintenance and if connected properly, faster than mag stripe readers in the peaks. Even a paper roll ticket can be used for that, - it doesn't come much cheaper than that.
The big issue would be TfL gatelines where there doesn't seem to be any move to optical readers which would be needed for Outboundary Travelcards
 

skyhigh

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The big issue would be TfL gatelines where there doesn't seem to be any move to optical readers
I understand that there were conditions attached to the government bailout of TfL that included optical scanners - though I've seen no information on that
 

PeterC

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we’re the only people who don’t register cards


How does that change the fact that there is a national database ?
Because it was incorrectly claimed that name + postcode would uniquely identify an individual.
 

RPI

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Since the latest software update to the GWR TTK Avocet machines (portable ticket machines carried by guards/Revenue protection staff) there has been an option to sell to E Ticket, which I've done a few times, is quite useful as it saves your ticket roll, particularly on the branch lines
 

blakey1152

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5 Sep 2011
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Oyster has obviously been around in London for many years and I think it's a good system but it most certainly has it's flaws. I'm more than happy to have a Travelcard on my Oyster and as someone mentioned in an earlier post about another similar card that if you tap in at the wrong time you can be charged an incorrect fare. Think the example given was tapping in at 8.58am for a 9.03am train where lower fares would have applied if tapping in after 9am.
In London the same thing happens but it is swings and roundabouts as you can tap in a couple of minutes before the peak and get an off peak fare in the rush hour.

I can't remember whether its Oyster or Contactless or both that does the most annoying thing of Auto completing the journey - I don't like the way that the system has instantly assumed where you are going to - as it doesn't seem to use much logic.
A few weeks back I travelled from Slade Green to Charlton and tapped in and out. on the return journey I tapped in at Charlton and TfL auto completed my trip at.....Sidcup - all very nice if I was going to Sidcup, it did correct when I tapped out at Slade Green but there is the potential for people to be inadvertently overcharged without knowing it.

I myself had to gain a refund a few years back - I had a zones 4,5,6 Travelcard on my Oyster and made a trip on the loop service directly from Woolwich Arsenal to Welling and was quite surprised to be charged for the trip because in my eyes I had caught a direct train that used the zones on my Oyster. TfL refunded it saying that the trip is set as going via Lewisham so it would charge me every time for zone 3 - With a paper season this would never have been a problem!

In my eyes Paper tickets win hands down
 

johntea

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The Weekender is fantastic value but very poorly advertised. Even I forget about it sometimes when it would have been a great option.
(For non-locals it allows travel throughout West Yorkshire from 1800 on a Friday for the next 54 hours for £8.50.
This compares with a day ticket at £6.70 on the bus, reducing to £5.00 if bought on the app in multiples of 10).

The whole MCard project perhaps shows quite well some of the fragmentation issues with smartcard offerings from individual operators

In my eyes I should be able to acquire a MCard and load any of their advertised products on it using either a machine at a bus/rail station or through the app, but many of their products are a case of 'oh no you can't do that at the moment but we're definetely looking into providing the option in the future!'

Pre Covid I travelled from West Yorkshire to Harrogate each day, so the cheapest option was a Zone 1-6 MCard (£2064.80 compared to a point to point only season ticket of £2152.00 at current prices)...but confusingly these are 'not MCard products therefore cannot be added to a MCard'!!!

The paper tickets were lucky to last a month before a barrier rendered them useless, and it was a complete and utter pain in a rear part of the body to get them replaced at a rail station ticket office as there was some very specific method that had to be used by the staff to pull up their details for the replacement which they apparently didn't do that often so it could easily take up to half an hour each time to sort it out!

Surprise surprise they were looking into allowing adding to an MCard in several email communications I had with them dating back to pre 2020, yet still it isn't an option...
 

MikeWh

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I can't remember whether its Oyster or Contactless or both that does the most annoying thing of Auto completing the journey - I don't like the way that the system has instantly assumed where you are going to - as it doesn't seem to use much logic.
A few weeks back I travelled from Slade Green to Charlton and tapped in and out. on the return journey I tapped in at Charlton and TfL auto completed my trip at.....Sidcup - all very nice if I was going to Sidcup, it did correct when I tapped out at Slade Green but there is the potential for people to be inadvertently overcharged without knowing it.
Contactless tries to predict journeys on the same day but it does clearly say that the charges are only an estimate and should be checked the following day. If you touch in and out properly it will charge you correctly. If you do inadvertantly forget to touch out then the auto complete will avoid you getting an incomplete journey charge and possibly exceeding the cap.
I myself had to gain a refund a few years back - I had a zones 4,5,6 Travelcard on my Oyster and made a trip on the loop service directly from Woolwich Arsenal to Welling and was quite surprised to be charged for the trip because in my eyes I had caught a direct train that used the zones on my Oyster. TfL refunded it saying that the trip is set as going via Lewisham so it would charge me every time for zone 3 - With a paper season this would never have been a problem!
Ah yes. I think your experience was one of the reasons I added zonal coverage to my fare finder.
 

Bletchleyite

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I think the end of the CCST took a massive step forward this week. A lot of focus is now on their eradication.

Of the journeys I made this weekend to/from Windermere almost 100% of passengers in the vehicles I was in appeared to have e-tickets on a mobile device when the guard came through checking.

There is of course the London Underground issue needing solving, though.
 
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