Parade and Marching Band over Level Crossing

[Stuart-h]

Me personally I'd contact network rail head office with details of the marching band, how many people are planned to use the crossing and the time it would take for every one to get across the the crossing.
I'd also include details of any powered transport thats using the level crossing as well and include them when contacting network rail.

 

[LondonExile]

I've gone via the Live Chat on NR's website and had a response from their 1st line customer service that it's being passed to the appropriate "Local Operations Team".

I'll see what they come back with.

 

[zwk500]

I've gone via the Live Chat on NR's website and had a response from their 1st line customer service that it's being passed to the appropriate "Local Operations Team".

I'll see what they come back with.

The Local Operations Manager is exactly the right person to be speaking with, so hopefully you'll have a reply shortly.

 

[ruaival]

This seems like an excellent suggestion!

From an older thread - #12 on page 1 suggests the Railway has a planning approach for really slow road configurations.

Going across a level crossing with a long slow vehicle

While checking out a route to get my traction engine home, I discovered I would be crossing the ECML at Grove Road level crossing just south of Retford station. I didn't notice a sign telling drivers of long, high or slow vehicles to contact Network Rail, but I am concerned that the barriers may...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[aar0]

If you have any doubt as to the operation of the crossing I would stop the band at the white line and wait until you have clear space at the far side of the crossing suitable to contain the whole band. Then march across in silence with the clear instruction that if the amber light activates, the members who have not crossed the entry white line will halt. Use your own Marshall to enforce this if you deem it necessary. Reform at the far side if required and recommence parading.

Probably 30 seconds or so for the band.

May also be worth timing the gap between the lights and the gates, so you know if the rearmost rank on the crossing needs to break rank and get a wiggle on or if they can continue and wait to regroup with those left behind.

I’ve crossed LCs with a marching group, but we broke formation and crossed in 3s-4s before reforming on the other side, with two marshals on either side

 

[Deepgreen]

Post number 8 has it. When the lights show, stop. As far as slow vehicles are concerned this is not the same as, say a low loader carrying a transformer or something similar, which cannot be split and cannot speed up. Individuals must take responsibilty for acting properly and legally, not act like sheep.

 

[The_train_kid]

That seems quite dangerous without someone contacting the signalmen like you say the marshall or the trains being stopped completley.
Im glad it all went well

 

[skyhigh]

Im glad it all went well

It hasn't happened yet...

 

[The_train_kid]

It hasn't happened yet...

Realy?

I thought I saw a vid of it on this

 

[zwk500]

Realy?

I thought I saw a vid of it on this

There are vids of other marching bands crossing level crossings, but the OP in post #1 does say their specific event is later in the year.

 

[The_train_kid]

There are vids of other marching bands crossing level crossings, but the OP in post #1 does say their specific event is later in the year.

Oh

 

[WAB]

Post number 8 has it. When the lights show, stop. As far as slow vehicles are concerned this is not the same as, say a low loader carrying a transformer or something similar, which cannot be split and cannot speed up. Individuals must take responsibilty for acting properly and legally, not act like sheep.

Yes, to me it seems like a simple case of contacting the LOM via NR HQ in advance, briefing participants on what to do in advance (stop if not started to cross, otherwise carry on) and assigning a marshal to stop any more people from entering if the crossing activates, and ensuring that there is enough space throughout for people to clear the crossing. Contacting the signaller may well result in being told that they can't confirm an extended time to cross and to wait for the train to clear the section which could be a long while.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Post number 8 has it. When the lights show, stop. As far as slow vehicles are concerned this is not the same as, say a low loader carrying a transformer or something similar, which cannot be split and cannot speed up. Individuals must take responsibilty for acting properly and legally, not act like sheep.

As illustrated by the American incident cited above, and the video of the French peloton, individuals behave differently when in an organised group. Marches, pelotons, even flocks of birds, work because each individual relies on his/her neighbours behaving in a predictable way. A sudden stop will result in a collision. (Large groups of cyclists riding in close formation on public roads are a problem round my way - they ride far too close together to avoid a collision if someone has to make an emergency stop)

You cannot march in close formation if there is a possibility of the person in front of you stopping suddenly - in particular the rearmost ranks may not have seen that the warning lights have come on so won't be ready for the "wave" of stationary marchers to reach them. Members of a marching band are focussed on the music in front of them, not the road ahead, and if it is a large instrument like a sousaphone or a bass drum they will have limited forward vision anyway.

When negotiating a level crossing, you are not supposed to enter unless your exit is clear. This is obviously not practical in a march, and for the motorised group, long vehicles should not enter the crossing until the rear of the preceding vehicle has cleared the crossing by the length of the following vehicle. (That is, the distance between you and the vehicle in front should be no less than the width of the crossing plus the length of the vehicle you are driving)

 

[AlterEgo]

As illustrated by the American incident cited above, and the video of the French peloton, individuals behave differently when in an organised group. Marches, pelotons, even flocks of birds, work because each individual relies on his/her neighbours behaving in a predictable way. A sudden stop will result in a collision. (Large groups of cyclists riding in close formation on public roads are a problem round my way - they ride far too close together to avoid a collision if someone has to make an emergency stop)

You cannot march in close formation if there is a possibility of the person in front of you stopping suddenly - in particular the rearmost ranks may not have seen that the warning lights have come on so won't be ready for the "wave" of stationary marchers to reach them. Members of a marching band are focussed on the music in front of them, not the road ahead, and if it is a large instrument like a sousaphone or a bass drum they will have limited forward vision anyway.

When negotiating a level crossing, you are not supposed to enter unless your exit is clear. This is obviously not practical in a march, and for the motorised group, long vehicles should not enter the crossing until the rear of the preceding vehicle has cleared the crossing by the length of the following vehicle.

Sensible.

The clearly obvious mitigation in this case is for the band to be instructed to stop at the level crossing, cease playing, fall out, and walk over it normally, reform at the other side and resume playing.

 

[LAX54]

Contacting NR well before the parade would be a wise move, they can then arrange for a MOM to be onsite, failing that, a mandatory call to the Signaller from the crossing, who will tell you when to cross (and not before), he can place the protecting signals at danger to keep everyone safe, however it maybe a bit of a wait depending on the timetable and where the protecting signal is, which coukd be quite a few miles for an AHB.

 

[alxndr]

Sensible.

The clearly obvious mitigation in this case is for the band to be instructed to stop at the level crossing, cease playing, fall out, and walk over it normally, reform at the other side and resume playing.

The even more obvious solution in this case is to accept that times and trains have moved on and the handful of streets the “wrong” side of the crossing will need to miss out.

 

[zwk500]

The even more obvious solution in this case is to accept that times and trains have moved on and the handful of streets the “wrong” side of the crossing will need to miss out.

There's no particular reason the parade can't cross the railway safely if everybody is properly briefed beforehand.

 

[LickeyIncliner]

This is a good example of a parade through a busy railway crossing, where have at least 4 or 5 pairs of stoppers per hour, and least 2 pairs of non-stop expresses. The leaders must be able to handle situations where the group will be split up, and police officers on duty at crossings to ensure the safety of parade participants. If they didn't, it would be enough to disrupt the busy Keihan Main Line.

There is no doubt that they were must communicated to the railway company and the police department in advance.

That's quite a remarkable bit of urban design - as if the Metro Centre had been built so that one of the entrances was straight onto the Newcastle & Carlisle. (Related trivia question here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ided-by-an-operational-level-crossing.267631/)

 

[norbitonflyer]

The even more obvious solution in this case is to accept that times and trains have moved on and the handful of streets the “wrong” side of the crossing will need to miss out.

Parades usually go from a specific assembly point to a specific destination - in which case the railway will have to be crossed somewhere. And looking at the map, any detour to avoid the level crossing would involve a march of several miles, some of it along the motorway-standard A19 .

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Parades usually go from a specific assembly point to a specific destination - in which case the railway will have to be crossed somewhere. And looking at the map, any detour to avoid the level crossing would involve a march of several miles, some of it along the motorway-standard A19 .

Looking at realtime trains, that level crossing has 1 train scheduled M-F (nothing on weekends) that rarely runs, this year's parade would likely have no issues with it (unless trains happen to have to divert that way) although, as already mentioned, future years will be heavily impacted by the re-opening of the line to regular passenger services.

 

[LAX54]

Looking at realtime trains, that level crossing has 1 train scheduled M-F (nothing on weekends) that rarely runs, this year's parade would likely have no issues with it (unless trains happen to have to divert that way) although, as already mentioned, future years will be heavily impacted by the re-opening of the line to regular passenger services.

Trains or 'no' trains, they will still have to comply with the rules, and that is to get permission from the Signaller to cross

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Trains or 'no' trains, they will still have to comply with the rules, and that is to get permission from the Signaller to cross

I agree there, with the current service, they'll have no problem getting permission.

 

[LondonExile]

Reply came back from Network Rail, no trains should be running due to works for the Northumberland Line project, but there is a chance of the crossing activating that day, implying, (but not explicitly stating) that that would be if they're testing it at the time.

They've said there should be Network Rail staff on site, so I'm planning on arriving a bit earlier and either speaking to whoever is in Orange HiVis, or using the crossing phone if nobody is around.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Reply came back from Network Rail, no trains should be running due to works for the Northumberland Line project, but there is a chance of the crossing activating that day, implying, (but not explicitly stating) that that would be if they're testing it at the time.

They've said there should be Network Rail staff on site, so I'm planning on arriving a bit earlier and either speaking to whoever is in Orange HiVis, or using the crossing phone if nobody is around.

It is probably timely to think now about how it will be managed next year, when there will be a regular train service.

 

[londonbridge]

Next month I'll be part of a parade where the route crosses a level crossing (AHB as far as I can tell?) I can see on Google Streetview the usual sign saying drivers of large or slow vehicles must get permission to cross, but I'm wondering in terms of risk where a parade would sit? Should the parade be phoning the signaller ahead, or is the fact that it is made up of individual vehicles and pedestrians and can be "split" without fouling the crossing enough?

As I understand it, the road will be closed to traffic, and the parade will consist of a marching brass band, veterans, members of the local community and historic vehicles. The advice so far is that if the crossing operates, stop, do not duck under barriers etc., which whilst there's nothing wrong with what's written, I'm wondering if more is needed in terms of planning?

To stop a brass band on the march, they will be expecting cues from the bass drum that normally take about 5s to execute, but (untested), I expect someone screaming HALT! will be effective enough. Players are drilled not to stop on their own volition (otherwise the person behind you walks into you), so it's definitely not the same as say a group of runners.

Any thoughts?

I’ve run the Croydon 10k multiple times, last year was cancelled, they’re having to come up with a new route as TFL have decided it’s no longer allowed to cross the tram line at Lloyd Park. Previously there was a marshal there and final instructions given to runners were to stop if/as necessary, so I don’t know what’s changed.

 

[bleeder4]

Reply came back from Network Rail, no trains should be running due to works for the Northumberland Line project, but there is a chance of the crossing activating that day, implying, (but not explicitly stating) that that would be if they're testing it at the time.

They've said there should be Network Rail staff on site, so I'm planning on arriving a bit earlier and either speaking to whoever is in Orange HiVis, or using the crossing phone if nobody is around.

Perhaps that is why the person organising the parade specifically arranged it for this time period? It might already have all been taken care of, so no reason for you to have worried in the first place.

 

[MP33]

Regarding only one train a week day, if that. This is no guarantee. I saw a programme talking about Canadian railways, where it was stated on the line to Churchill. Which has a train every three weeks running through a sparsely populated area, the number of level crossing accidents there were.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Took me a while to find the level crossing bit --- good music though.

4m12 is a good place ... I could imagine that would send most Health and Safety people into apoplexy

The warning seems to be activated at 22:15 with a train trundling through to the nearby station shortly afterwards. The signs are well-observed by the band, who impressively don't miss a beat throughout.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The warning seems to be activated at 22:15 with a train trundling through to the nearby station shortly afterwards. The signs are well-observed by the band, who impressively don't miss a beat throughout.

With the legendary Japanese railway timekeeping, the band could probably incorate the trains' schedule into their choreography.

 

[Volvictof]

Reply came back from Network Rail, no trains should be running due to works for the Northumberland Line project, but there is a chance of the crossing activating that day, implying, (but not explicitly stating) that that would be if they're testing it at the time.

They've said there should be Network Rail staff on site, so I'm planning on arriving a bit earlier and either speaking to whoever is in Orange HiVis, or using the crossing phone if nobody is around.

Sorry if it’s already been mentioned elsewhere but what is the parade? I live in this area and have done parades over a lever crossing for The seghill gala when I was in a brass band. I diddnt work for the railway then though and assume it was all sorted by the local council.