Parent accompanied by teenager refused sale of alcohol in off-licence

[DB]

What is obvious to one isn't necessarily obvious to another.

In the OP it's stated:

@DavidB implied that the law shouldn't apply where parent/child relationships are concerned, my question was how the shopkeeper is supposed to ascertain that such a relationship exists.

AFAIK, the law doesn't specify a test of reasonableness.

They need to have reasonable grounds for suspecting that it's for the kid - and there's nothing stopping them from asking.

The law doesn't say that alcohol sales should be refused to anyone who has kids with them.

 

[_toommm_]

They're jobsworths scared of getting fired, which I guess is fair enough

I once drove to a shop, forgot my ID and despite me showing my 26-30 rail card on my phone, a thing that is verified with your driving licence and pointing to my car, with me opening the boot to show it was my car, I was still rejected from buying a bottle of red wine.

Gah.

That wouldn't fly in any reputable shop. Serving someone underage can cause not only the shop to lose their license, but potentially a fine for the cashier and even a criminal record. It's always best to err on the side of caution, especially as test purchases have started again. It's best to apply consistency, so I ask for the same ID forms whether I'm serving alcohol, handing out a click and collect. Giving credit or doing anything money-related is a different matter completely as it's more tightly regulated, but anything supermarket based needs consistency.

These views are my own.

 

[ComUtoR]

Well, it's often pretty obvious...

If you have a white parent with a black kid.. What call are you gonna make ?

Where in the wording is there reference to the adult being a parent ? As I read any relationship is irrelevant.

You quoted me but its Naga's comment.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

What about cigarettes? I understand there is much less smoking now than a few decades ago
Is alcohol on the way out too?

 

[Snow1964]

What about cigarettes? I understand there is much less smoking now than a few decades ago
Is alcohol on the way out too?

Apparently alcohol has gone up 50% in lockdown (mainly parents)

However I have virtually given up alcohol as I have a fatty liver (as do 30% of men of 50+), just most don’t know it as it is usually only diagnosed whilst looking for something else. If it takes you lot longer to recover from drink than when you were younger, then might have it, but will need ultrasound scan to check.

 

[JamesT]

What about cigarettes? I understand there is much less smoking now than a few decades ago
Is alcohol on the way out too?

Cigarettes and related products have similar laws banning purchases by minors, including proxy purchases.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

@Snow1964
Thanks for the insight
I gave up alcohol 30 years ago, dunno about the condition of my liver

 

[KevinTurvey]

I have seen this a couple of times. On one occasion two young women were stood together in the queue in front of me. The person purchasing wine was age challenged and duly presented her driving licence. Fine you would have thought.
The cashier then proceeded to ask the woman stood next to her for her age identification as well. She said she did not have any with her. The cashier then cancelled the sale and a bit of an argument ensued with the result that those 2 people will probably never shop in that store chain again.

 

[Typhoon]

On balance the store would want to keep its alcohol licence even if that means losing a few customers through strict enforcement. Police / trading standards do send people in undercover so you can blame them!

As do the media - I've seen this more than once on local tv; doubtless the print media are similar. This would certainly give the retail outlet publicity it could do without. It is pretty certain that they will use 16 year old's heavily made up (f) or with facial hair (m) to go undercover, the retailer does need to be ultra careful.

@DavidB implied that the law shouldn't apply where parent/child relationships are concerned , my question was how the shopkeeper is supposed to ascertain that such a relationship exists.

AFAIK, the law doesn't specify a test of reasonableness.

I hope not! The regulation as given by @ComUtoR in #8 refers to 'child', there is no exclusion for a parent buying booze for their off-spring heading off for some party in the next street.

I have seen this a couple of times. On one occasion two young women were stood together in the queue in front of me. The person purchasing wine was age challenged and duly presented her driving licence. Fine you would have thought.
The cashier then proceeded to ask the woman stood next to her for her age identification as well. She said she did not have any with her. The cashier then cancelled the sale and a bit of an argument ensued with the result that those 2 people will probably never shop in that store chain again.

Unfortunately, the cashier at that retail outlet is having to make a decision between making that and future sales by these customers and possibly losing their licence (and if the cashier is employed by the outlet, losing their job). That is a tough call, one I'm pleased I never had to make. The cashier took the 'safe' decision, I don't blame them. However, this is down to the law, and (quite probably) our reluctance to carry some form of identity.

 

[SS4]

I don't see the issue. The cashier and the store can be both be punished and it's not worth the risk to someone's job.

Off topic I really dislike jobsworth in the way it's used today - more often than not it seems to be from somebody whinging that they were denied service for a legitimate reason.

 

[DB]

I hope not! The regulation as given by @ComUtoR in #8 refers to 'child', there is no exclusion for a parent buying booze for their off-spring heading off for some party in the next street.

I made no such suggestion. I merely pointed out that just because someone happened to have their teenager with them did not automatically indicate that the booze was for them, and unless there was some clear indication that it was then there is no reason to assume it.

 

[Jamiescott1]

In my mid 30s I had alcohol amongst my shopping at the self service checkout in sainsburys. The lady wouldn't authorise my alcohol purchase so I brought the rest of the items without the alcohol which the assistant kept. I then went back to the shop floor and got some more beer and brought it at another checkout no issues.
As I was leaving the store, the original member of staff who refused me service at the self service checkout accused me of stealing the beer. I ignored her.
I got half way down the street and 2 security guards came chasing after me. I provided my receipts for all my shopping (2 separate transactions). Complained to sainsburys head office and recieved a £30 voucher

 

[52290]

A few years ago when using the self service till in Morrisons the red light started flashing when I scanned a copy of Viz magazine. I asked the assistant if I was too old to be allowed to read Viz, I'm 76.

 

[DB]

A few years ago when using the self service till in Morrisons the red light started flashing when I scanned a copy of Viz magazine. I asked the assistant if I was too old to be allowed to read Viz, I'm 76.

 

[kermit]

I take it this nonsense is not replicated regarding the sale of cigarettes ?

Only when you are attempting to purchase tobacco for your cat?

The phrase "if they’re accompanied by a child and think the alcohol is being bought for the child" is, I believe, the key to this apparently vexed question (and is the level of indignation being generated here symptomatic of the general demise of calm and respectful debate?). If I was with my (for instance) 16 year old child, and was refused sale of alcohol merely because I was with them, I wonder if I would have a case against the shop for defamation of character? By refusing sale, the shop would be more than implying that its staff thought I would be committing the serious criminal offence of purchasing alcohol for a minor. If they have no additional grounds for suspicion than the fact that my teenager was with me, I think they would be on thin ice. It's a shame, though, that my only route to redress for this foul calumny would be against the shop keeper themselves, when they may have been encouraged to take an over zealous (and in my view, incorrect) interpretation of the law by reflexively defensive lawyers, trading standards staff or others with some sort of axe to grind. But please don't hurl brickbats at me just for having the temerity to think out loud!

 

[JohnMcL7]

I wasn't allowed to buy alcohol one time when going through a till with my brother even though he was well over 18 because while I had ID, he didn't. I do appreciate how cautious they have to be but the attitude can be irritating since the checkout assistant seemed almost indignant we had tried to trick them and was immediately accusatory. I don't mind so much when they're polite about it given I know there's serious consequences for them. I'm teetotal and my brother at the time didn't drink either, it was just a normal weekly shop I was doing for parents and I think it was a normal bottle of wine or something.

 

[Horizon22]

This has happened to me personally - twice and both in Morrisons and only since COVID / mask-wearing. Only because I had my partner with me and she's an EU national without a easily portable ID (she only carries her passport if she has to). Both times we've gone to the supermarket together, she has been standing with me and I've had ID but they've declined it because she didn't have any.

She clearly looks over 25 and when I go alone, I'm pretty much never asked. So it's a very weird circumstance.

 

[Mitch in Notts]

Best one has to be a friend - she was in her early 40s and is only 5ft tall. Forgot her ID - cashier refused to serve her alcohol. She had her 22 year old Son with her, who did have his ID on him. Cashier wouldn't serve him alcohol in case he passed it to his Mum..... Obviously cashier had no way of knowing the relationship between the two people but still strikes me as ironic to this day.

 

[Iskra]

The person in front of me in the queue, who was accompanied by his teenage (underage) daughter has just been refused alcohol by the sales assistant, who told him it was against the law as he could be buying it for her. I've never seen this happen before but have read about it happening in a supermarket.

Was the sales assistant correct or was she just being a jobsworth? All I can find on line is that some supermarkets have this as a policy, just as they often ask you to produce ID if you LOOK under 21, or even 25, but it's not illegal. Many shoppers will have children at home when they buy booze. When I was being served I told the young woman I had a 10 year old grand-daughter but she didn't take the bait. She said even if this guy came back on his own she wouldn't serve him!

Any lawyers out there?

I've not read the full thread, but as someone who used to sell age-restricted products we were told we could refuse to sell them if we believed they were going to be passed onto someone under-age.

 

[SteveM70]

The response of the till person will depend a lot on the circumstances. Adult and teenager together but clearly doing the weekly family shop will have no problem buying booze. Adult and a teenager dressed to the nines buying just a bottle of vodka at 9pm will have a tough time.

 

[DB]

The response of the till person will depend a lot on the circumstances. Adult and teenager together but clearly doing the weekly family shop will have no problem buying booze. Adult and a teenager dressed to the nines buying just a bottle of vodka at 9pm will have a tough time.

Yeah, and that may well be reasonable.

As I mentioned above though, I've seen a case where a respectable-looking middle aged bloke in a suit was refused a bottle of wine because he happened to have his teenage son with him - they were clearly rather bemused and annoyed by it, unsurprisingly.

 

[Gloster]

Yeah, and that may well be reasonable.

As I mentioned above though, I've seen a case where a respectable-looking middle aged bloke in a suit was refused a bottle of wine because he happened to have his teenage son with him - they were clearly rather bemused and annoyed by it, unsurprisingly.

So, would it be acceptable to refuse to sell to him if he was a scruffy-looking middle aged bloke with someone who might or might not be his teenage son?

 

[DB]

So, would it be acceptable to refuse to sell to him if he was a scruffy-looking middle aged bloke with someone who might or might not be his teenage son?

Not unless there was a reason to assume it was for the son.

 

[PG]

I don't see the issue. The cashier and the store can be both be punished and it's not worth the risk to someone's job.

Off topic I really dislike jobsworth in the way it's used today - more often than not it seems to be from somebody whinging that they were denied service for a legitimate reason.

The phrase "if they’re accompanied by a child and think the alcohol is being bought for the child" is, I believe, the key to this apparently vexed question (and is the level of indignation being generated here symptomatic of the general demise of calm and respectful debate?).

I've not read the full thread, but as someone who used to sell age-restricted products we were told we could refuse to sell them if we believed they were going to be passed onto someone under-age.

I've previously worked in retail jobs which involved selling age restricted products. As has been mentioned both the retailer and the staff member are at risk of prosecution (and subsequent conviction) for selling age restricted products via a proxy sale. Thus most retailers would rather forgo a sale than face prosecution. Some will label this being a jobsworth but I'd rather have kept my job than be prosecuted.

Curiously I believe that a parent/guardian can permit their children over the age of 5 to consume alcohol in their own home; so in one respect one law is contradicting the other as I (as the customer) could say that the alcohol is for my child and likely be refused sale but in permitting my child to consume it at home I wouldn't be breaking the law!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The retailer I worked for a while back trained us on the alcohol laws at the time, and the policy was that if you got caught out once you wouldn't be fired but would have to deal with the fine yourself. Repeat breaches would be a disciplinary matter though.
The "Think 21" (at the time) policy was explained to us in training, but they might as well have not bothered as I've lost count of the times that I witnessed people aged between 18 and 20 being turned away because the staff member had misunderstood the policy.

I tended to go as much on attitude and behaviour as I did on appearance, as well as considering the context of what the alcoholic drink was, was it the only thing in the trolley or was it part of a "weekly shop". The only time I refused a sale because I suspected it was being purchased for someone under-age was an older male who was accompanied by a young lass. I'm pretty sure they weren't related as they were all over each other but then again this was a supermarket in Somerset* so who knows?

*= this bit is a joke, and shouldn't be taken as a genuine aspersion on the tendencies of our rural brethren.

 

[Westcountryman]

If someone was intending to buy alcohol for someone underage, all that they have to do is for the purchaser to go to the till and for the underage person to leave the shop, or for the younger person to wait outside.. As I would imagine that many people understand this, so the people stopped from purchasing are much more likely to be genuine buyers.

 

[westv]

Clearly anybody who really wanted to get an adult to buy alcohol for them would have the sense not to stand next to them at the till.

 

[185143]

I got refused sale of alcohol in an Aldi shortly after I'd turned 18 due to my mate being underage. We were both asked for ID which I produced no problem. It was only a single bottle of beer rather than multiple as well.

 

[sprunt]

If I was with my (for instance) 16 year old child, and was refused sale of alcohol merely because I was with them, I wonder if I would have a case against the shop for defamation of character?

I'm not a lawyer, but I'm as confident as I've ever been about anything in saying that you wouldn't have a scintilla of a case.

 

[trebor79]

Difficult to say unless you were there if this was a jobsworth or not.
I had a summer job in an off licence whilst at university. I only once refused someone on the grounds they were buying it for someone else - in this case her (adult) sister who'd I'd refused a few minutes prior because she was absolutely paralytically drunk.
Ended up with both sisters in the shop ranting at me and refusing to leave, accusing me of being racist. My colleague just quietly called the local police station who turned up and told them in no uncertain terms that it was private property and if the were asked to leave they must leave, end of. He gave them one more chance before the cuffs came out and after that they disappeared pronto.

Best part was they both then barged in the next morning complaining to the manager and wanting me sacked. Helen was a fearless Scot who told them if she ever heard of them abusing any of her staff again they'd be barred for life. Off they went with tail between legs, both nice as pie after that incident!

Having said all that, I don't think I'd ever refuse a parent even if I did think they were buying for their child. I don't think it's actually illegal for a parent to give a child alcohol anyway.

AFAIK, the law doesn't specify a test of reasonableness.

Indeed. You can be refused service just because the shopkeeper doesn't like the look of you, and there's nowt you can do about it. So long as they don't say it's because of your race, religion or other protected characteristic you just have to suck it up.