Parliamentary debate on East to West Midlands railway connectivity

[VT 390]

Derby-Leicester actually makes good sense, because these trains are busiest between Leicester and London so Derby-Leicester passengers can use seats that would otherwise be empty. It's not quite the same as somewhere like Birmingham-Tamworth where short-distance passengers load up a long-distance train on the sector of its journey that is likely to have the most long-distance passengers.

When I travelled from Chesterfield to Leicester a few weeks ago it was very busy between Derby and Leicester with almost all the seats taken and few people got off at Leicester compared to how many remained on board. This was a 5 coach class 222 mid afternoon service.

 

[DavidGrain]

HS2 will help with some of these by taking passengers between the main centres such as Birmingham-Manchester and Birmingham-Sheffield-Leeds-York-Newcastle. The existing services will probably continue at about the same frequency but will be more targeted at shorter journeys north of Birmingham plus those travelling to/from south of Birmingham (a slightly odd mix I agree) and may make a few more stops.

Derby-Leicester actually makes good sense, because these trains are busiest between Leicester and London so Derby-Leicester passengers can use seats that would otherwise be empty. It's not quite the same as somewhere like Birmingham-Tamworth where short-distance passengers load up a long-distance train on the sector of its journey that is likely to have the most long-distance passengers.

Yes. I can't remember if I have said this before but Tamworth took a large Birmingham overspill about 50 years ago and I believe that it is still a major dormitory town for Birmingham commuters yet the only trains serving that route are Cross Country trains.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

. . . . Also many towns and cities in the region seem to lack direct links meaning rail travel is unattractive for example Mansfield only has links to Nottingham and Worksop meaning rail travel to many nearby places such as Chesterfield, Sheffield, Newark-on-Trent, Derby and others are not attractive. . . . .

This is something that is fascinating me more and more. It's only recently that I learned that Mansfield has a population of more than 100k. Why is it not regarded as a potentially important railway hub?

 

[edwin_m]

Yes. I can't remember if I have said this before but Tamworth took a large Birmingham overspill about 50 years ago and I believe that it is still a major dormitory town for Birmingham commuters yet the only trains serving that route are Cross Country trains.

Hence the need for a commuter-oriented service out to at least Tamworth and maybe as far as Derby, which might also serve Coleshill and some new stations. I think this is needed even after long-distance passengers transfer to HS2.

 

[edwin_m]

When I travelled from Chesterfield to Leicester a few weeks ago it was very busy between Derby and Leicester with almost all the seats taken and few people got off at Leicester compared to how many remained on board. This was a 5 coach class 222 mid afternoon service.

That's because most passengers on those trains are going to/from London so the closer they are to London the busier they get. If anything it says that Sheffield-London trains should be longer (although HS2 addresses that by taking nearly all the Sheffield/Chesterfield-London passengers).

 

[thenorthern]

This is something that is fascinating me more and more. It's only recently that I learned that Mansfield has a population of more than 100k. Why is it not regarded as a potentially important railway hub?

For a long time Mansfield didn't have a station the current station only opened in 1995.

There were a lot of lines in the area that closed in the 1960s and the Robin Hood Line was only reopened as it was because the trackbead was still there mostly.

 

[edwin_m]

For a long time Mansfield didn't have a station the current station only opened in 1995.

There were a lot of lines in the area that closed in the 1960s and the Robin Hood Line was only reopened as it was because the trackbead was still there mostly.

Not just the trackbed, most of the Robin Hood line was still operational for freight. The southern part was kept for coal traffic to collieries as far north as Newstead, and although there was probably a period with no trains I don't believe it formally closed. The line through Mansfield stayed open for freight, as part of a route from Pye Bridge on the Erewash Valley line through to Worksop. The current Mansfield station building is part of the original station. A fairly short section between Newstead and Kirkby-in-Ashfield had to be restored as part fo the Robin Hood Line project to provide a more direct link to Nottingham, although this didn't follow the old route exactly.

Of several routes that linked Mansfield to Sheffield, I believe the one from Creswell across to Staveley was largely still in place at the time, so could perhaps have been re-opened. But it looks pretty curvy so probably would have been quite slow.

 

[Neen Sollars]

[
You've not answered the question on rail growth. Not that I expect anyone who is opposed to HS2 would, as the predicted growth was for 2.5% growth a year meaning that by opening of Phase 1 it was expected to be about 50% higher than the 2008/09 passenger figures (the last available when HS2 was announced). From the table I posted above is currently 70% for the regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1.

To reach the 100% increase by 2033 that's 1.1% growth a year, including between 2026 and 2033 when there's due to be a lot more trains providing a lot more capacity in the form of HS2 phase 1 services.[/QUOTE]

There is no question to answer, you simply quote old statistics as justification for supposed future growth. I cannot be bothered to look them up, but I would wager that if I looked up similar figures for other regions, especially commuter regions like the West Midlands the growth statistics would be considerably higher than those for passengers into London. Dispatches programme Jan 2019 London Bham 70% full at peak and 43% full on average, longer trains means more capacity. Train capacity to and from London is not the problem. The next Prime Minister will shortly be presented with a sign off for HS2 he will be told that costs already exceed "official" estimates and that he is looking at a total cost in excess of £100 billion. If I were the PM I would think of what that £100 bn could be used for over the next 7 years. I would refuse to sign the document and rip it up, and then sleep easy that night, because I would not sleep easy if I signed it.
There are plenty of worthwhile rail re-instatement and enhancement projects around the UK, and the subject of this thread is one of them.
Over and Out.

 

[The Ham]

You've not answered the question on rail growth. Not that I expect anyone who is opposed to HS2 would, as the predicted growth was for 2.5% growth a year meaning that by opening of Phase 1 it was expected to be about 50% higher than the 2008/09 passenger figures (the last available when HS2 was announced). From the table I posted above is currently 70% for the regions which benefit from HS2 phase 1.

To reach the 100% increase by 2033 that's 1.1% growth a year, including between 2026 and 2033 when there's due to be a lot more trains providing a lot more capacity in the form of HS2 phase 1 services.

There is no question to answer, you simply quote old statistics as justification for supposed future growth. I cannot be bothered to look them up, but I would wager that if I looked up similar figures for other regions, especially commuter regions like the West Midlands the growth statistics would be considerably higher than those for passengers into London. Dispatches programme Jan 2019 London Bham 70% full at peak and 43% full on average, longer trains means more capacity. Train capacity to and from London is not the problem. The next Prime Minister will shortly be presented with a sign off for HS2 he will be told that costs already exceed "official" estimates and that he is looking at a total cost in excess of £100 billion. If I were the PM I would think of what that £100 bn could be used for over the next 7 years. I would refuse to sign the document and rip it up, and then sleep easy that night, because I would not sleep easy if I signed it.
There are plenty of worthwhile rail re-instatement and enhancement projects around the UK, and the subject of this thread is one of them.
Over and Out.

Full reply given here to avoid thread drift:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...er-hs2-discussion.177112/page-93#post-4084959

However I think you missed a key point of my post:

Indeed, however:
- it is reliant on HS2 being built

For this (worthwhile) scheme to go ahead it needs HS2 to be built. Without it there's not the capacity to do what's wanted. How do you get around that?

 

[thenorthern]

Not just the trackbed, most of the Robin Hood line was still operational for freight. The southern part was kept for coal traffic to collieries as far north as Newstead, and although there was probably a period with no trains I don't believe it formally closed. The line through Mansfield stayed open for freight, as part of a route from Pye Bridge on the Erewash Valley line through to Worksop. The current Mansfield station building is part of the original station. A fairly short section between Newstead and Kirkby-in-Ashfield had to be restored as part fo the Robin Hood Line project to provide a more direct link to Nottingham, although this didn't follow the old route exactly.

Of several routes that linked Mansfield to Sheffield, I believe the one from Creswell across to Staveley was largely still in place at the time, so could perhaps have been re-opened. But it looks pretty curvy so probably would have been quite slow.

The Annesley Tunnel I know had been filled in with garbage from the mines and had to be re-excavated when the line re-opened. There w

I think the line through Creswell and Staveley has been converted to a footpath a couple of years ago, I know there was an underground fire in the area in the 1990s which made the line unstable to run trains over.

There was talk of running services from Derby to Mansfield via Long Eaton the Erewash Valley and Pye Bridge but I don't think that will happen.

 

[edwin_m]

There was talk of running services from Derby to Mansfield via Long Eaton the Erewash Valley and Pye Bridge but I don't think that will happen.

There's a plan kicking around to run from Toton to Mansfield Woodhouse by that route to connect that area to HS2.

 

[thenorthern]

As this is House of Commons related and talking about rail improvements in the East Midlands I would just like to point out the amount of railway projects by Westminster, Local authorities and others which have been proposed over the years in the East Midlands many of which have been approved but not happened.

• Leicester to Burton upon Trent - reopening the line has been mentioned since the early 1990s with politicians regularly talking about reopening the line however progress is no further forward 25 years later.
• Buxton to Matlock - despite being an aspiration by politicians and Derbyshire County Council having a study about reopening it in 2004 the line is not going to reopen despite how many petitions people sign.
• Newark Flat Crossing - supposedly going to be removed in an upgrade of the East Coast Main Line announced in 1999 but its still there and there is no set date for its removal.
• Lincoln Central to London - supposedly going to have a 2 hourly service to London announced in 2007 but all it has is a 2 early morning services to the capital.
• Midland Main Line electrification - supposedly going to be electrified and Politicians made a big deal about how great it would be but it was "paused" after the 2015 election and canceled after the 2017 election.
• Doncaster-Sheffield Airport Station - Planning permission was granted in 2008 however the station is not going to be built any time soon.
• Ollerton Branch Line - mentioned by councils quite a few times although its not got anywhere further than that.
• East Midlands Airport rail link - East Midlands Parkway was built in 2009 however it didn't achieve what it set out as its not got anywhere near the projected passenger numbers and it doesn't really serve the airport. A proper link has been mentioned but again nothing has come of it.
• Stoke-on-Trent improvements - although not in the East Midlands at the 2017 election Chris Grayling spoke about a light rail system for the city and re-routing HS2 to serve the city however not much has happened since then.

For some reason projects in the East Midlands seem to get cancelled more often than other projects and politicians will promise projects in the region just to get votes but fail to deliver on their promises when elected.

As I have said before my view is that the government hates the East Midlands.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Picking up a few points made in this thread.

The alignment of the Nuneaton dive-under would have been unsuitable for reinstatement for use instead of the re-opened overbridge; it can be clearly seen on 1947 OS maps - try:

http://www.npemap.org.uk/tiles/map.html#436,292,1

Parts of "greater Leicester" fall into the Hinckley & Bosworth district; going north up the A50 towards M1 Junction 22, you enter it just after the Glenfield Hospital, and as the road has a bus every 10 minutes into Leicester St Margaret's bus station, that city's station is the "natural" one to use for most rail journeys.

When is a line open to passenger traffic? The Winchnor Junction - Lichfield Trent Valley High Level line has at least one regular passenger service over it each week (the Sunday 1V48 08.10 Leeds - Plymouth HST), so is it classed as being open to passenger traffic?

 

[thenorthern]

When is a line open to passenger traffic? The Winchnor Junction - Lichfield Trent Valley High Level line has at least one regular passenger service over it each week (the Sunday 1V48 08.10 Leeds - Plymouth HST), so is it classed as being open to passenger traffic?

There is an evening weekday service as well from Newcastle to Birmingham that goes via Lichfield rather than Tamworth its for route knowledge retention purposes in simple terms it so the drivers remember routes that are used in diversions.

Other users will probably know more than me but from what I understand from Lichfield Trent Valley to Wychnor junction is not classed as an open passenger line but a freight line which has been approved to run passenger trains so there is no requirement to operate passenger trains over it but it can be used by passenger trains in a diversion and CrossCountry could in theory remove the regular services booked to use the line if they wanted to. Other lines such as Stockport to Stalybridge are classed as open lines so are required to have at least one train per week using the line.

 

[DavidGrain]

Being in the area one day last year I went to look at East Midlands Parkway. As far as I could see most of the passengers were people getting off Megabuses from various places in Yorkshire for onward travel to London. The Megabuses were showing London St Pancras on their destination boards. The question is will these services continue after Stagecoach hands over the franchise.

Anyone know if there are plans to extend the Clifton line of the Nottingham trams to either East Midlands Parkway or the Airport. This would seem logical to me

 

[swt_passenger]

Being in the area one day last year I went to look at East Midlands Parkway. As far as I could see most of the passengers were people getting off Megabuses from various places in Yorkshire for onward travel to London. The Megabuses were showing London St Pancras on their destination boards. The question is will these services continue after Stagecoach hands over the franchise.

The assumption here was that they’ll cease, we discussed it back in April in this thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/mml-franchise-impact-on-megabus.180983/#post-3958560

 

[edwin_m]

The conductor on one of the London trains last week was advising passengers (presumably the Megabus ones) when checking tickets that the service would end in August. I don't know how official that was. While Abellio could come to some agreement with Stagecoach to continue it, there might be dispute about the payments involved and Abellio might be afraid Stagecoach would go after their rail passengers, whereas when Stagecoach ran the whole lot they could try to segregate the market to avoid problems of that sort.

 

[swt_passenger]

The conductor on one of the London trains last week was advising passengers (presumably the Megabus ones) when checking tickets that the service would end in August. I don't know how official that was. While Abellio could come to some agreement with Stagecoach to continue it, there might be dispute about the payments involved and Abellio might be afraid Stagecoach would go after their rail passengers, whereas when Stagecoach ran the whole lot they could try to segregate the market to avoid problems of that sort.

They aren’t coming up on the Megabus site after about Aug 15th, just checked a couple of hours ago.

 

[DavidGrain]

Stagecoach have presumably thought about running the buses on to London. This will be a lot of passengers lost to the the railways or at least to the East Midlands franchise as these passengers, depending on their starting point could switch to the ECML

 

[thenorthern]

Anyone know if there are plans to extend the Clifton line of the Nottingham trams to either East Midlands Parkway or the Airport. This would seem logical to me

In an ideal world yes however in most areas with light rail / rapid transit there is a passenger transport executive who oversees the implementation of public transport policy for a set area and applies to Westminster for funding when improvements are needed. In the East Midlands however there is no such body and more to the point Nottingham is a separate unitary authority to the rest of Nottinghamshire County Council so there isn't even a unified transport policy between the two and Nottingham City Council isn't going to pay for a line that largely runs outside its area.

When the line through Beeston was being planned I know there was a lot of controversy about who was paying for the line as a large amount of it runs through Broxtowe.

 

[Class 170101]

Lincoln to Kings Cross direct two hourly service starts from 9 September according to Realtime trains.