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Partially Fitted and Unfitted Freight Brake Van Side Lights.

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MOONY

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15 Jan 2009
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Hi, Could one of the more mature posters (!) please explain to me why partially fitted and unfitted freight train brake vans required side lights in addition to the standard tail lamp please? These lamps were dual lens so that they faced toward the front of the train for the Fireman to check that the rear of the train was following OK, but rearwards facing? I'm baffled!

MTIA

Moony
 
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PaulLothian

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Does this help? https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/i...ide-lamps-for-brake-vans-on-unfitted-freights

"The side lamps were carried on part or un- fitted freight trains and shone a white light forward so that the loco crew could check that the train was complete at night. They were carried on both sides of the van at once, normally on the rear balcony brackets where the guard was afforded some protection from the wind when running at speed, but this was not a hard and fast rule and on 25mph maximum class K or 9 trains they might well be on the front balcony's brackets, especially where trains changed direction. The 'normal' display while the train was running was thus of 3 red lights to the rear in an upside down triangle formation, but not always, as follows.

They shone a red to the rear as stated, but this was in the form of a removable slide-in shade that the guard removed from the side adjacent to a running line if his train was in a loop, refuge siding, or reception/departure road, or on a slow or goods line adjacent to a fast running line that traffic might overtake on. This was to re-assure the drivers of such trains that they were not about to collide with the rear of a freight train travelling perhaps 60mph slower than them, especially on curves where perspective can play nasty tricks with you at night! Thus the display would be of 2 red lights, the main tail lamp and the side lamp on the side of the train away from the faster line, and a white on the side closest to it. There was a slide-in on one side of the lamp to store the shade in, but when you were in a loop or siding you just left it sticking out the top of the main slide-in!

On the GWR/BR (W), the white light was similarly displayed to the rear on 'relief' lines even when they were separated from the faster running line by another running line in the opposite direction.

They were painted black or white, and about the same dimensions as the normal head and tall lamps, and used the same paraffin reservoirs and burners. They fitted differently to the brackets, though, a slot being provided either side of the lamp. The handle was oriented the other way around as well. In an emergency in which the guard wishes to draw the attention of the loco crew to have the train stopped, he can reverse the lamps so that they show a red light forward; if the loco crew don't notice, the next signal box or passing train will! If the emergency is more serious than this, you have plenty else to worry about...

There seems to have been no rhyme or reason to black or white painting in BR days, but I have a general impression that there were more black painted ones towards the end of the brake van period. I believe GW ones may have been red painted. Fully fitted freight trains carried a single tail lamp without the side lamps, as did all other traffic above Class C or 6, and of course still do!"
 

thesignalman

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2012
Messages
71
This was to re-assure the drivers of such trains that they were not about to collide with the rear of a freight train travelling perhaps 60mph slower than them, especially on curves where perspective can play nasty tricks with you at night!
That was the theory, but a slow-moving or stationary fully-fitted train could give a similar view (and does today) so thr idea didn't hold a lot of water.
On the GWR/BR (W), the white light was similarly displayed to the rear on 'relief' lines even when they were separated from the faster running line by another running line in the opposite direction.
Not peculiar to to GWR/BR(WR) at all, nor limited to Relief Lines!

John
 

MOONY

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
78

s

"The side lamps were carried on part or un- fitted freight trains and shone a white light forward so that the loco crew could check that the train was complete at night. They were carried on both sides of the van at once, normally on the rear balcony brackets where the guard was afforded some protection from the wind when running at speed, but this was not a hard and fast rule and on 25mph maximum class K or 9 trains they might well be on the front balcony's brackets, especially where trains changed direction. The 'normal' display while the train was running was thus of 3 red lights to the rear in an upside down triangle formation, but not always, as follows.

They shone a red to the rear as stated, but this was in the form of a removable slide-in shade that the guard removed from the side adjacent to a running line if his train was in a loop, refuge siding, or reception/departure road, or on a slow or goods line adjacent to a fast running line that traffic might overtake on. This was to re-assure the drivers of such trains that they were not about to collide with the rear of a freight train travelling perhaps 60mph slower than them, especially on curves where perspective can play nasty tricks with you at night! Thus the display would be of 2 red lights, the main tail lamp and the side lamp on the side of the train away from the faster line, and a white on the side closest to it. There was a slide-in on one side of the lamp to store the shade in, but when you were in a loop or siding you just left it sticking out the top of the main slide-in!

On the GWR/BR (W), the white light was similarly displayed to the rear on 'relief' lines even when they were separated from the faster running line by another running line in the opposite direction.

They were painted black or white, and about the same dimensions as the normal head and tall lamps, and used the same paraffin reservoirs and burners. They fitted differently to the brackets, though, a slot being provided either side of the lamp. The handle was oriented the other way around as well. In an emergency in which the guard wishes to draw the attention of the loco crew to have the train stopped, he can reverse the lamps so that they show a red light forward; if the loco crew don't notice, the next signal box or passing train will! If the emergency is more serious than this, you have plenty else to worry about...

There seems to have been no rhyme or reason to black or white painting in BR days, but I have a general impression that there were more black painted ones towards the end of the brake van period. I believe GW ones may have been red painted. Fully fitted freight trains carried a single tail lamp without the side lamps, as did all other traffic above Class C or 6, and of course still do!"
Many thanks for excellent response. However, this much I already knew. My point was - why was it necessary to have rear facing sidelights on partially or unfitted freight trains? A looped class C (4) freight with a single tail lamp cannot display the "white on the right"
Does this help? https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/i...ide-lamps-for-brake-vans-on-unfitted-freights

"The side lamps were carried on part or un- fitted freight trains and shone a white light forward so that the loco crew could check that the train was complete at night. They were carried on both sides of the van at once, normally on the rear balcony brackets where the guard was afforded some protection from the wind when running at speed, but this was not a hard and fast rule and on 25mph maximum class K or 9 trains they might well be on the front balcony's brackets, especially where trains changed direction. The 'normal' display while the train was running was thus of 3 red lights to the rear in an upside down triangle formation, but not always, as follows.

They shone a red to the rear as stated, but this was in the form of a removable slide-in shade that the guard removed from the side adjacent to a running line if his train was in a loop, refuge siding, or reception/departure road, or on a slow or goods line adjacent to a fast running line that traffic might overtake on. This was to re-assure the drivers of such trains that they were not about to collide with the rear of a freight train travelling perhaps 60mph slower than them, especially on curves where perspective can play nasty tricks with you at night! Thus the display would be of 2 red lights, the main tail lamp and the side lamp on the side of the train away from the faster line, and a white on the side closest to it. There was a slide-in on one side of the lamp to store the shade in, but when you were in a loop or siding you just left it sticking out the top of the main slide-in!

On the GWR/BR (W), the white light was similarly displayed to the rear on 'relief' lines even when they were separated from the faster running line by another running line in the opposite direction.

They were painted black or white, and about the same dimensions as the normal head and tall lamps, and used the same paraffin reservoirs and burners. They fitted differently to the brackets, though, a slot being provided either side of the lamp. The handle was oriented the other way around as well. In an emergency in which the guard wishes to draw the attention of the loco crew to have the train stopped, he can reverse the lamps so that they show a red light forward; if the loco crew don't notice, the next signal box or passing train will! If the emergency is more serious than this, you have plenty else to worry about...

There seems to have been no rhyme or reason to black or white painting in BR days, but I have a general impression that there were more black painted ones towards the end of the brake van period. I believe GW ones may have been red painted. Fully fitted freight trains carried a single tail lamp without the side lamps, as did all other traffic above Class C or 6, and of course still do!"
 

thesignalman

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2012
Messages
71
My point was - why was it necessary to have rear facing sidelights on partially or unfitted freight trains? A looped class C (4) freight with a single tail lamp cannot display the "white on the right"
I did explain this issue in my response.

The rule obviously dates back to the days when all trains had brake vans at the rear so it would have been possible to display side lights on all classes of freight trains.

John
 

MOONY

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
78
I did explain this issue in my response.

The rule obviously dates back to the days when all trains had brake vans at the rear so it would have been possible to display side lights on all classes of freight trains.

John
I cannot see where you explained why rear facing side lights were necessary per se - as I have already said - unnecessary on fully fitted trains, or have I not explained myself properly?

Permit me to put this another way - why would a single tail light not suffice for all trains - i.e., no requirement for rear facing side lights on any type of train. That is all I need to know.
 

thesignalman

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9 Jan 2012
Messages
71
You need to take yourself out of the 21st Century and put yourself back in the days when all goods trains were unfitted and had a guards van at the back. Displaying side lights forwards and backwards would have been totally consistent.

The perceived benefit of rearward-facing side lights has already been explained.
 

MOONY

Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
78
You need to take yourself out of the 21st Century and put yourself back in the days when all goods trains were unfitted and had a guards van at the back. Displaying side lights forwards and backwards would have been totally consistent.

The perceived benefit of rearward-facing side lights has already been explained.
Sidelights were still in use until comparatively recently for Class 9 Engineers trains. You still haven't addressed the precise question. The attitude of your reply would indicate that the post could become attritional. Therefore I shall seek the answer elsewhere and as far as I am concerned this post is terminated.
 

John Webb

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5 Jun 2010
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Location
St Albans
All trains at one time had three rear lamps, as demonstrated by a number of carriages at the Vintage Carriage Trust museum at Ingrow West. I am unclear why passenger trains eventually lost the side lamps, possibly because of the introduction of continuous braking? (So it was not necessary to have side lamps visible forward to the engine crew.)
The rear-facing lamps were possibly a redundancy feature? Bear in mind that there was far more 'smog' about up until the Clean Air acts of the 1950s and so there was a better chance of the rear of a train being sighted if it had three lights instead of one. But this is conjecture on my part, I have to admit.
 

randyrippley

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21 Feb 2016
Messages
5,212
You're all looking at the wrong question.
The issue surely is "what is the justification for downgrading the rear facing lights from three to one on a fully fitted train"?
 

Gloster

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Up the creek
Or, once passenger trains were fully braked, to differentiate a non-fully braked once from one that was fully braked.
 

edwin_m

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21 Apr 2013
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Nottingham
Possibly just a case that the rule had always been there and nobody had found a good reason to change it? The below is speculation but I think is quite likely to be true.

All trains had central and side lights originally. When continuous brakes came along there was no real need for the engine crew to confirm the train was complete so the forward facing lights were unnecessary. Combined with the possibility that the guard wouldn't be in the last vehicle (rare initially but more common later) so couldn't easily swap the reds for whites, someone decided they weren't necessary at all on fully-fitted trains. However they were still needed on part- or unfitted trains so nobody changed the rule for these, even though the red rear-facing part was probably redundant. Also having the red glass to hand would have made it quicker for the guard to shine this forward if necessary in emergency.
 

Lemmy99uk

Member
Joined
5 May 2015
Messages
462
As an aside, there used to be an up goods loop at Weaver junction where the Liverpool and Glasgow lines combined.

It was situated between the two, with the up Liverpool on your left and the up Glasgow on your right. As a result you were required to display a rear facing white light on both sides of your brake van.

I’m not sure if there were any other locations with this rule, certainly nowhere on the LM that I’m aware of.
 
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