Passenger Information Worldwide

[dm1]

I think it is important to realise that back then in many places bus stops did not even have names, at least not names that were publically accessible and displayed on either maps or on the stops themselves.

Therefore in many cases there wasn't really a name to announce. This I imagine has partly to do with the common approach of having very high stop density, with many stops skipped on a given run. On some routes, stops were every 100m or so and often little more than a bus stop flag on the pavement.

In some places this is still the case today.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Nowadays most people can track their location on their smart phones. No need to rely on the driver....

But information on a phone doesn't necessarily tell you the most important information about key public facilities near a particular bus stop - nor do modern announcements on buses in fact. Hence a conductor's local knowledge was really useful, including for tourists or for people asking which was the stop for a particular (maybe fairly minor) road.

I think it is important to realise that back then in many places bus stops did not even have names, at least not names that were publically accessible and displayed on either maps or on the stops themselves.

Therefore in many cases there wasn't really a name to announce. This I imagine has partly to do with the common approach of having very high stop density, with many stops skipped on a given run. On some routes, stops were every 100m or so and often little more than a bus stop flag on the pavement.

In some places this is still the case today.

But the stop names aren't always what you want anyway - hence a conductor's more contexted information, in response to a passenger query, was generally much more useful than present-day automation.

Present-day stop names in London don't all have much logic behind them - except for the need to have a different name for every stop! Sometimes there are several stops on one long road, and only one of them has that road name as the "bus stop name", which can be misleading for non-locals. And bus stops opposite one another going in opposite directions on the same road sometimes have different names, and so on. Then add in the weirdly misleading pronunciation of some complex names too, and you end up with a system (in London anyway) which in some places isn't fit for purpose.

And that's without taking into account the frequent glitches in the automation, with the aural and display announcements not matching; the former often refer to other routes or other parts of London.

 

[biko]

But the stop names aren't always what you want anyway - hence a conductor's more contexted information, in response to a passenger query, was generally much more useful than present-day automation

That additional context is nowadays easy to find online. As visitor to a city (and also London) I usually plan my journey in an app or online and the planner shows at which stop I need to alight. The announcement of that stop is very useful to know you need to press the button and go towards the doors. It doesn't really matter what they announce, as long as it is consistent between planner and announcement.

 

[marc224]

It's also about the idea of service: even in bus and rail transport, there should be quality against quality, and the announcement of stops is important and useful, especially in big cities; it's simply part of it, and why not make it easier for passengers?

As I have heard, in Germany, Switzerland, Sweden and Austria the stops were announced by the driver at that time. So it was considered sensible. In London and other places, however, it was apparently not, although during the time of the conductor in London, it was apparently considered sensible to announce stops, but after that, unfortunately, it was no longer the case.
I think it should always be aimed at the people who are most in need of help and these are blind people, people who are not familiar with the area etc. For these people a stop announcement makes a lot of sense.

How many bus lines in the 1980/1990s still had a conductor on board who announced the stops?
Does anyone know

 

[marc224]

One more addition,

nowadays the buses in London definitely have and yet, from what I have heard here, the stops are still not announced by the driver when the automatic system is down.

 

[RT4038]

It's also about the idea of service: even in bus and rail transport, there should be quality against quality, and the announcement of stops is important and useful, especially in big cities; it's simply part of it, and why not make it easier for passengers?

As I have heard, in Germany, Switzerland, Sweden and Austria the stops were announced by the driver at that time. So it was considered sensible. In London and other places, however, it was apparently not, although during the time of the conductor in London, it was apparently considered sensible to announce stops, but after that, unfortunately, it was no longer the case.
I think it should always be aimed at the people who are most in need of help and these are blind people, people who are not familiar with the area etc. For these people a stop announcement makes a lot of sense.

How many bus lines in the 1980/1990s still had a conductor on board who announced the stops?
Does anyone know

Conductors announcing stops in London was very patchy - maybe in the well used tourist spots but less likely at other intermediate stops and rarely or never in the suburbs, unless specifically asked. Conductors were never expected to announce every stop, nor did they. It very much depended on their character, and you came across all sorts!
I did plenty of conducting in the provinces in the late 70s - I would make a stop announcement at the major points on inter-urban routes (small market towns or elsewhere at interchanges with other services), but never on town service or on rural routes, unless specifically asked by a visitor etc. Don't think ever so many of my colleagues did, unless asked of course.
When buses routinely had conductors it was a different world then - those who rode buses with disabilities or were unfamiliar and needed help simply asked - there was no real concept then of the disabled being entitled to live the same/similar life as those who were not [and I realise that is a bit of a generalisation].

 

[marc224]

Were there no important stops or tourist destinations to announce on their urban lines? On which inner-city lines do you think conductors announced stops more often? Were there many of these lines? How many bus lines were still manned by conductors in the 1980s?

 

[RT4038]

Were there no important stops or tourist destinations to announce on their urban lines? On which inner-city lines do you think conductors announced stops more often? Were there many of these lines? How many bus lines were still manned by conductors in the 1980s?

In London, routes such as 9, 11, 14, 19, 22, 38, at least on their City Centre sections. By the middle of the 1980s conductors had been phased out of all but a handful of Provincial operations, and London were left with about 25 (?) routes. Following deregulation of bus services in the provinces in 1986, there was some pockets of a renaissance of conductors in some towns/cities for competitive reasons, but these gradually fizzled out by the 90s. In London the decision was taken around 2000 to phase out the remaining conductors, the last finally going from Service 159 in 2005. A small tourist orientated operation continued until the pandemic. There have been some very minor exceptions in the provinces.

 

[upnorth71]

In Japan bus conductors who announced the stops were phased out pretty much by the early 1980s (Yokohama Municipal Bus Lines kept two routes with conductors until 1988)- announcements are recorded now and activated by the driver at the appropriate times, and riders who wish to alight push a buzzer when a particular stop is announced. Buses have always been much more rider friendly in that way than say, the buses in Los Angeles (where I lived for almost 16 years carless), where no announcements were/are made. And as for those who say everyone now uses their smartphone to track their route, how about the elderly or the blind who do not or cannot use such devices? Buses are typically essential transport for those segments of the population.

training video for bus conductors circa 1960s (Keio Railway Bus Lines in the Tokyo area):

 

[Cricketer8for9]

West Berlin (1982-85) had driver announcements on many routes. Can’t guarantee all, but my local 92 and 94 did, at least much of the time.

My father recalls conductor announcement of major stops in London, but that may have been a one off when he was having to get the 68 bus from South Croydon to London because of a rail strike. That said these may not have been a huge amount of help to the non-local for example Camberwell Green became Cambell Green and the ”hs” got dropped from Herne Hill. Not a problem for Londoners, not very helpful for tourists already flummoxed by English pronunciation rules.

 

[marc224]

In Japan bus conductors who announced the stops were phased out pretty much by the early 1980s (Yokohama Municipal Bus Lines kept two routes with conductors until 1988)- announcements are recorded now and activated by the driver at the appropriate times, and riders who wish to alight push a buzzer when a particular stop is announced. Buses have always been much more rider friendly in that way than say, the buses in Los Angeles (where I lived for almost 16 years carless), where no announcements were/are made. And as for those who say everyone now uses their smartphone to track their route, how about the elderly or the blind who do not or cannot use such devices? Buses are typically essential transport for those segments of the population.

training video for bus conductors circa 1960s (Keio Railway Bus Lines in the Tokyo area):

Hello, I have heard a few times that Japan and China were passenger-friendly very early on and valued passenger information.

I have read that bus drivers are even equipped with a headset nowadays and announce important stops and give other information, although there are of course already automatic stop announcements.

May I ask when you lived in Los Angeles?
I once heard that since 1990 there was a rule for the entire USA that bus drivers had to announce important stops.
That wouldn't be done?

West Berlin (1982-85) had driver announcements on many routes. Can’t guarantee all, but my local 92 and 94 did, at least much of the time.

My father recalls conductor announcement of major stops in London, but that may have been a one off when he was having to get the 68 bus from South Croydon to London because of a rail strike. That said these may not have been a huge amount of help to the non-local for example Camberwell Green became Cambell Green and the ”hs” got dropped from Herne Hill. Not a problem for Londoners, not very helpful for tourists already flummoxed by English pronunciation rules.

Hello, I have also often heard that in Germany the bus driver used to announce the bus stops.

Was your father often in London?
Can he only remember the one time that the conductor announced the stops or was it done regularly?

 

[Siemens Trains]

Hello, I have heard a few times that Japan and China were passenger-friendly very early on and valued passenger information.

I have read that bus drivers are even equipped with a headset nowadays and announce important stops and give other information, although there are of course already automatic stop announcements.

May I ask when you lived in Los Angeles?
I once heard that since 1990 there was a rule for the entire USA that bus drivers had to announce important stops.
That wouldn't be done?


Hello, I have also often heard that in Germany the bus driver used to announce the bus stops.

Was your father often in London?
Can he only remember the one time that the conductor announced the stops or was it done regularly?

Do you think there might be safety concerns if drivers are compelled to announce the next stop? As with making phone calls while driving there's a certain amount of distraction involved. In general I feel drivers should only make announcements when stationary. Perhaps that was detailed in the USA rule you mention.

 

[marc224]

In London, routes such as 9, 11, 14, 19, 22, 38, at least on their City Centre sections. By the middle of the 1980s conductors had been phased out of all but a handful of Provincial operations, and London were left with about 25 (?) routes. Following deregulation of bus services in the provinces in 1986, there was some pockets of a renaissance of conductors in some towns/cities for competitive reasons, but these gradually fizzled out by the 90s. In London the decision was taken around 2000 to phase out the remaining conductors, the last finally going from Service 159 in 2005. A small tourist orientated operation continued until the pandemic. There have been some very minor exceptions in the provinces.

Hello, so the conductors became fewer in the 1980s.
In the 1980s there were only 25 bus routes with conductors in London?
These were important routes in the city centre with a lot of passengers?
From 1986 onwards there were more lines with conductors again.

Can anyone give an estimate (percentage) of how many conductors always announced the most important stops?

 

[AlbertBeale]

In London, routes such as 9, 11, 14, 19, 22, 38, at least on their City Centre sections. By the middle of the 1980s conductors had been phased out of all but a handful of Provincial operations, and London were left with about 25 (?) routes. Following deregulation of bus services in the provinces in 1986, there was some pockets of a renaissance of conductors in some towns/cities for competitive reasons, but these gradually fizzled out by the 90s. In London the decision was taken around 2000 to phase out the remaining conductors, the last finally going from Service 159 in 2005. A small tourist orientated operation continued until the pandemic. There have been some very minor exceptions in the provinces.

Hello, so the conductors became fewer in the 1980s.
In the 1980s there were only 25 bus routes with conductors in London?
These were important routes in the city centre with a lot of passengers?
From 1986 onwards there were more lines with conductors again.

Can anyone give an estimate (percentage) of how many conductors always announced the most important stops?

Re "at least on their City Centre sections" - if a bus had a conductor it had a conductor; there was no situation where a conductor was used for just a busy part of the route but not right through the bus's journey.

The conductors continued on those routes still using the old Routemaster rear-platformed buses; these weren't necessarily the most busy and/or just City Centre routes, though they did tend to be ones where the route included some travel around central London as opposed to being entirely out in the suburbs. It is true that, in general, outer suburban routes lost their conductors first, so that from the 1980s it would have been mostly inner London routes retaining them (nearly all of which included at least a bit of their route which was fairly "central").

Re "In the 1980s there were only 25 bus routes with conductors in London?" I'm not sure it was as few as that... it didn't feel like such a small proportion of routes ... but then again I'm based in central London and so my memoery could be skewed by that.

Re "From 1986 onwards there were more lines with conductors again." - no, I don't think there was ever any route which went back to having Routemasters with conductors, once they'd been switched to OPO. Certainly, if so, it was rare.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Re "From 1986 onwards there were more lines with conductors again." - no, I don't think there was ever any route which went back to having Routemasters with conductors, once they'd been switched to OPO. Certainly, if so, it was rare.

I think this activity was outside London.
Around 1986, deregulation led to new companies being formed and some new ideas. Maybe certain areas of the country saw reintroduction of conductors where companies thought it worthwhile (perhaps due to excess staff or as a trial). Or from necessity due to the second hand vehicles they bought.
But it was only for a short period and not a general policy anywhere. Over the longer term (eg 3 year moving average) the trend has always been conductors becoming less common on UK buses.

 

[Ken H]

In leeds when there were conductors no stops were announced. I dont remember announcements on OPO buses either. That is out of town buses and Leeds city Transport (LCT) buses. The first LCT double decker 2 door buses designed for OPO had PA and the equipment was soon removed. Never heard it used.

Rode 5 first and 1 transdev buses in Leeds yesterday. The first ones had no announcements and 2 had no display of next stop. But these were local buses for local people. The transdev one announced each stop but no displays. Not upstairs anyway.

 

[marc224]

In Germany, Switzerland, Austria and Sweden, bus stop announcements have always been an important service.

Hello, I heard from the London Transport Museum that conductors on buses had to announce stops without being asked as early as 1930.

From 1970 onwards, this regulation was probably watered down due to a lack of staff.

For my paper again to all:
How high would you estimate the percentage of conductors who announced the most important stops in 1970/1980/1990?

The bus drivers announced the stops even less often.

I heard from TFL that if the automatic system fails, nowadays the bus drivers have to announce the stops.
Is this also done?

Many greetings

 

[marc224]

Has anyone ever experienced that bus drivers nowadays make announcements or announce the stops when the system is not working?

I heard from the museum that there has been a rule since the 1920s that conductors have to announce the stops.

In the 1970s, this regulation was watered down a bit, but some still did or did not.