Passenger-unfriendly downsides of e-tickets?

[Haywain]

If you read the Prosecutions/Disputes sub-forum, you will observe many who suffer a worse fate than having to go to a ticket office when thinking they're buying an e-ticket!

Those are people who have bought online, not spotted that they aren't getting an e-ticket but ToD, and getting on a train where there's no ticket gate. Then they get checked either on the train or at the destination and end up with a penalty fare or worse.

The majority of these can be summed up as travelling with Merseyrail or failing to away with short ticketing. In the case of the former many are then given the opportunity to collect the tickets on arrival in central Liverpool.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the case of the former many are then given the opportunity to collect the tickets on arrival in central Liverpool.

I wonder how many of these might be avoided if a means of collection (e.g. a couple of TVMs) inside the gateline were provided, to which anyone arriving at the gateline without having collected could be pointed. While we know otherwise, the idea that you've made the journey so there's no need to pick the ticket up (or you might as well "go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" as you're often asked to do for things) seems intuitive. Automatic refunding of uncollected walk-ups may happen, but nothing publicises that it will.

There's a TVM inside the gateline at MKC which is presumably there for that sort of purpose (it is still there, I looked on Friday). You can use it to buy a ticket from somewhere else (so it can be handy if wanting to go onwards to Bletchley, say) but I doubt that's its main usage. There's also one at Watford Junction, presumably for people arriving from the St Albans branch who haven't been able to collect yet.

At least Merseyrail does now do ToD, but the way it does it is subtly different from everyone else and as such it can catch people out, and there's no real need for it to do so.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I wonder how many of these might be avoided if a means of collection (e.g. a couple of TVMs) inside the gateline were provided, to which anyone arriving at the gateline without having collected could be pointed. While we know otherwise, the idea that you've made the journey so there's no need to pick the ticket up (or you might as well "go ter Laime Stsreets fer dat" as you're often asked to do for things) seems intuitive. Automatic refunding of uncollected walk-ups may happen, but nothing publicises that it will.

There's a TVM inside the gateline at MKC which is presumably there for that sort of purpose (it is still there, I looked on Friday). You can use it to buy a ticket from somewhere else (so it can be handy if wanting to go onwards to Bletchley, say) but I doubt that's its main usage. There's also one at Watford Junction, presumably for people arriving from the St Albans branch who haven't been able to collect yet.

At least Merseyrail does now do ToD, but the way it does it is subtly different from everyone else and as such it can catch people out, and there's no real need for it to do so.

Wakefield, Newcastel Darlington and Peterbough also have TVMs inside the gateline

 

[Adam Williams]

I'd rather they used signatures, and assymetric encryption the way god intended :P

Don't be silly! It wouldn't be the railway if things weren't done differently

This would be a good way to immediately lengthen the payload of the tickets by the key modulus. I'm really not convinced there's that much headroom given the number of layers specified.

As rail industry things go, I don't really mind this design decision.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would be a good way to immediately lengthen the payload of the tickets by the key modulus. I'm really not convinced there's that much headroom given the number of layers specified.

As rail industry things go, I don't really mind this design decision.

TBH I dont really care that I can't scan the barcode myself. What I care about is that unlike a paper ticket I can't see what's been marked on it. It really should be possible to do that by looking up the booking at the retailer, if only to see whether I've used a given ticket or not so I don't go and mistakenly use it again, but also to see if staff who may claim to have endorsed it have and what with.

 

[Adam Williams]

TBH I dont really care that I can't scan the barcode myself. What I care about is that unlike a paper ticket I can't see what's been marked on it. It really should be possible to do that by looking up the booking at the retailer, if only to see whether I've used a given ticket or not so I don't go and mistakenly use it again, but also to see if staff who may claim to have endorsed it have and what with.

I can see the potential use-cases, but there would need to be fairly significant contractual changes to enable this sort of thing.

Such a campaign for access to this data would be best aimed at RDG.

You can bet that the first objection raised will be "but fraudsters can use it to see if they will be able to refund a ticket without anyone knowing, after they actually travelled".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the potential use-cases, but there would need to be fairly significant contractual changes to enable this sort of thing.

Such a campaign for access to this data would be best aimed at RDG.

One thing that could be done fairly quickly is to show "scanned" against a booking. Trainline already know, because one way to find out is to hit the refund button (and then "no", obviously) - Trainline pops up a message if it's been scanned that it doesn't if it hasn't.

Doesn't show what's recorded, though, just that there's been a scan.

 

[Adam Williams]

One thing that could be done fairly quickly is to show "scanned" against a booking. Trainline already know, because one way to find out is to hit the refund button (and then "no", obviously) - Trainline pops up a message if it's been scanned that it doesn't if it hasn't.

Again, there would need to be fairly significant changes to today's contractual models to enable this. You couldn't just do it "fairly quickly" at all

This isn't data that retailers necessarily automatically have, it has to be fetched and there are implications to doing that (and restrictions on when it can be done).

It's not really a technical problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can bet that the first objection raised will be "but fraudsters can use it to see if they will be able to refund a ticket without anyone knowing, after they actually travelled".

Trainline already does, it will let you apply for a refund if it's not scanned but tell you it's scanned if it was.

Attached picture shows the message - "One or more tickets appear to have been scanned so cannot be refunded"

 

[Adam Williams]

Trainline already does, it will let you apply for a refund if it's not scanned but tell you it's scanned if it was.

And so does TrainSplit, but that's part of a refund process for customers that choose to try and apply for an automatic refund (and are eligible to do so). That's the difference.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And so does TrainSplit, but that's part of a refund process for customers that choose to try and apply for an automatic refund (and are eligible to do so). That's the difference.

It's still giving you a useful indication that the ticket has potentially been used and thus not to try to use it again out of confusion if you have a load stacked up as many people do, basically it's an e-biro scribble.

 

[xotGD]

If you drop a paper ticket while fumbling about at the ticket barrier, this does not require an expensive visit to the mobile phone repair shop.

 

[TUC]

Who are all these rail enthusiasts who appear to be more likely to drop their phones than the population as a whole?

One only has to be on a train during a ticket check and hear the number of beeps to know where the preference of a large number of passengers lies.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Who are all these rail enthusiasts who appear to be more likely to drop their phones than the population as a whole?

Older people perhaps?

Meanwhile, I actually did drop my mobile phone onto a rocky path on Saturday and it didn't sustain any damage.

 

[Skymonster]

basically nobody is choosing ToD when e-ticket is an option aside from those wishing to make a point of principle,

I do - today I bought online (Advance) and elected for fulfilment through ToD at departure station, and I did the same last week. No principle involved. I’d always rather have a piece of cardboard / paper than fumble with an expensive mobile phone (which could be dropped / broken or snatched) in a queue at a crowded ticket barrier.

 

[trainophile]

Who are all these rail enthusiasts who appear to be more likely to drop their phones than the population as a whole?

One only has to be on a train during a ticket check and hear the number of beeps to know where the preference of a large number of passengers lies.

I always find it a very awkward exercise, especially when there's a queue and you have to keep refreshing your phone display, while juggling various luggage items. It's an occasion when an extra arm would be very useful.

 

[crablab]

I get ToD when using the corporate travel platform, as it will only issue eTickets as PDFs (instead of adding to Google Wallet). They don't have a timeline for adding this functionality.

Otherwise solely eTickets through Trainsplit for me.

 

[AdamWW]

One only has to be on a train during a ticket check and hear the number of beeps to know where the preference of a large number of passengers lies.

Though if the option of choosing a physical ticket was clearly offered rather than being hidden away when buying tickets it might change the balance a bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I always find it a very awkward exercise, especially when there's a queue and you have to keep refreshing your phone display, while juggling various luggage items. It's an occasion when an extra arm would be very useful.

Personally I find it less awkward to take my phone out and tap once to show the Wallet pass (which I can do all with one hand) than taking out a paper ticket from a wallet and putting it back in. Those who don't use Android/Apple Wallet really should give it a go (subject to the constraints @crablab mentioned).

 

[redreni]

Though if the option of choosing a physical ticket was clearly offered rather than being hidden away when buying tickets it might change the balance a bit.

Quite. And reversing the position so TOD was the default and e-ticket was an option hidden away somewhere would surely alter the balance fairly decisively the other way, I would have thought (not that I'm advocating that).

I don't contest that people are happy with e-tickets, nor that a lot of people don't like TOD (because if you don't commute by train and will only get one opportunity to collect the ticket immediately before travel, and have to allow additional time for this when setting out, that is a pain and a potential problem).

I do contest that passengers have expressed a particular preference for them, though, because online retailers have their own preference (e-ticket fulfilment costs less than TOD) and therefore push them. My impression is most people have no strong preference either way and just accept the tickets whatever way they come by default.

 

[xotGD]

Who are all these rail enthusiasts who appear to be more likely to drop their phones than the population as a whole?

One only has to be on a train during a ticket check and hear the number of beeps to know where the preference of a large number of passengers lies.

One of my colleagues dropped their phone when they arrived at the station. Had to buy a new (paper!) ticket and get the screen replaced.

Double whammy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One of my colleagues dropped their phone when they arrived at the station. Had to buy a new (paper!) ticket and get the screen replaced.

Double whammy.

One thing that is a downside of the e-ticket system is that one cannot get a reprint of it on paper from a TVM or booking office. With these now moving to issuing tickets with barcodes, this should surely not be hard to achieve, certainly doing it at the booking office on production of ID or the card used to buy it.

 

[OscarH]

One thing that is a downside of the e-ticket system is that one cannot get a reprint of it on paper from a TVM or booking office. With these now moving to issuing tickets with barcodes, this should surely not be hard to achieve, certainly doing it at the booking office on production of ID or the card used to buy it.

Are you suggesting reprints when someone has the original, but it's just faded or their phone is about to die?

Printing without the barcode would not be easy to implement - even with it, it alone wouldn't produce a whole eTicket. Although without a functional original you wouldn't get a replacement CCST either so I assume you mean the former case

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you suggesting reprints when someone has the original, but it's just faded or their phone is about to die?

Printing without the barcode would not be easy to implement - even with it, it alone wouldn't produce a whole eTicket. Although without a functional original you wouldn't get a replacement CCST either so I assume you mean the former case

It'd actually be very, very easy to implement if you had an Internet connected device with a laser printer with which one could log into one's account on any of the accredited sales sites and reprint it from there. However I'd love to see the e-ticket system develop further so there's a central repository from which they could be retrieved, though I'm conscious the present system can't do that.

(These are sometimes provided for-profit in airports for the purpose of avoiding paying Ryanair's swingeing fees for doing it!)

 

[TUC]

Though if the option of choosing a physical ticket was clearly offered rather than being hidden away when buying tickets it might change the balance a bit.

Why? When so many of us pay for most things using our phone, have gig tickets on our phones, have Clubcard, Nectar etc on our phones, sometimes not even carrying a wallet, would people be interested in changing the balance?

 

[AdamWW]

Why? When so many of us pay for most things using our phone, have gig tickets on our phones, have Clubcard, Nectar etc on our phones, sometimes not even carrying a wallet, would people be interested in changing the balance?

It seems likely to me that there are some people who would choose physical tickets for whatever reason but don't because the option has been hidden and they think it's no longer possible.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Why do so many people think you need a phone to display an eTicket ?

 

[MrJeeves]

However I'd love to see the e-ticket system develop further so there's a central repository from which they could be retrieved

I'd warn that the lack of this is an explicit design choice to prevent any single point of failure.

Tickets are encrypted so that their content can be trusted without the need for any centralised system.

 

[talldave]

One of my colleagues dropped their phone when they arrived at the station. Had to buy a new (paper!) ticket and get the screen replaced.

Double whammy.

UNBREAKcable screen protectors - the phone owners' defence against gravity - tested to destruction by Mrs talldave!

 

[trainophile]

Why do so many people think you need a phone to display an eTicket ?

Presumably you mean or a printer? We've had this discussion many times, it's not an option for those without one or access to one.

Out of curiosity, when you hear the guard going through collecting beeps, occasionally there's a different tone that sounds like when someone gives a wrong answer on a TV quiz show. However the guard usually just nods and walks on. What is the reason for the difference in scanning tones? Is it indicating that there's a railcard discount? Child ticket? Presumably it's meant to flag up that there's something else that needs checking?