Passengers allowed to travel with no ticket - app failure

[johncrossley]

On a Northern train I got earlier, several passengers explained to the guard that the app didn't download the ticket. Not sure whether they were talking about e-tickets or Flexi Season tickets. The guard allowed everyone to travel and even made an announcement to say that there is a problem with the app and 'not to worry'.

Whilst it is good that passengers were allowed to travel, this goes against the normal philosophy that if you can't show a valid ticket then you either have to buy another ticket, or pay a penalty fare.

Does anyone know what this app problem was? I notice my EMR app was giving error messages earlier today.

 

[skyhigh]

On a Northern train I got earlier, several passengers explained to the guard that the app didn't download the ticket. Not sure whether they were talking about e-tickets or Flexi Season tickets. The guard allowed everyone to travel and even made an announcement to say that there is a problem with the app and 'not to worry'.

Whilst it is good that passengers were allowed to travel, this goes against the normal philosophy that if you can't show a valid ticket then you either have to buy another ticket, or pay a penalty fare.

Does anyone know what this app problem was? I notice my EMR app was giving error messages earlier today.

Trainline app fault (Northern app is based on the trainline back end) - etickets could not be shown on the app.

 

[johncrossley]

I suppose passengers can download the pdf from the email.

 

[_toommm_]

I suppose passengers can download the pdf from the email.

Not with the Northern app. They’re still only providing m-tickets AFAIK, so you have to show it in the app.

 

[matt_world2004]

If its a backend issue that means the passenger can't show an e ticket . The is the operators fault and passengers shouldn't be penalised for it

 

[Horizon22]

I think this was a nation-wide fault with Trainline, several crew have complained of the same this morning down in London too.

 

[AlterEgo]

On a Northern train I got earlier, several passengers explained to the guard that the app didn't download the ticket. Not sure whether they were talking about e-tickets or Flexi Season tickets. The guard allowed everyone to travel and even made an announcement to say that there is a problem with the app and 'not to worry'.

Whilst it is good that passengers were allowed to travel, this goes against the normal philosophy that if you can't show a valid ticket then you either have to buy another ticket, or pay a penalty fare.

Does anyone know what this app problem was? I notice my EMR app was giving error messages earlier today.

The normal philosophy where the train company or booking system has failed so passengers cannot download or purchase a ticket is to allow them to travel. That’s what happens when there’s widespread ticket machine failures for example.

 

[Watershed]

The normal philosophy where the train company or booking system has failed so passengers cannot download or purchase a ticket is to allow them to travel. That’s what happens when there’s widespread ticket machine failures for example.

However the OP raises a very valid point - there's no guaranteed right to travel without being able to produce your ticket when technical issues such as this arise. Similarly when ticket machines won't print bookings, Railcards disappear and m-tickets expire early.

Passengers would have been liable to pay a Penalty Fare or to be prosecuted, if permission to travel had not been given. And whilst that might seem a technicality that wouldn't ever happen in practice, it shouldn't even be a possibility.

This is a situation which definitely needs to be addressed, particularly with electronic ticketing becoming more and more ubiquitous.

 

[Horizon22]

However the OP raises a very valid point - inasmuch as there's no guaranteed right to travel without being able to produce your ticket when technical issues such as these arise.

In fact, passengers would have been liable to pay a Penalty Fare or to be prosecuted if permission to travel had not been given.

This is a situation which definitely needs to be addressed, particularly with electronic tickets (of all sorts) becoming more and more ubiquitous.

Surely in circumstances such as this its just a company-wide message going out to all relevant revenue staff explaining the issue and advising passengers may be travelling with references only until XX:XX? Normally permission is given pretty sharpish and broadcast to all parties.

 

[Watershed]

Surely in circumstances such as this its just a company-wide message going out to all relevant revenue staff explaining the issue and advising passengers may be travelling with references only until XX:XX? Normally permission is given pretty sharpish and broadcast to all parties.

Yes but passengers shouldn't have to rely on permission being given, because it isn't always forthcoming or indeed known about by all staff.

No-one should be liable to any kind of penalty/prosecution etc. if there is an error on the part of the railway.

 

[Horizon22]

Yes but passengers shouldn't have to rely on permission being given, because it isn't always forthcoming or indeed known about by all staff.

No-one should be liable to any kind of penalty/prosecution etc. if there is an error on the part of the railway.

Not really sure what the practical answer is then? If there's a fault with railway systems that aren't the fault of the customer they should of course be allowed to travel. That then relies on all relevant parties being aware and allowing people to travel and - as that is a departure from the norm - communicating that to all involved. That's basically what I've described. Systems aren't infalliable of course and whilst rare, I'm not personally aware of any issues where people have been told to buy tickets / PF'd in similar scenarios. Companies tend to err on the side of caution when there's some of system failure.

Now whether the communication is 100% airtight is I suppose a slightly different angle, but it needs to be.

 

[Watershed]

Not really sure what the practical answer is then? If there's a fault with railway systems that aren't the fault of the customer they should of course be allowed to travel. That then relies on all relevant parties being aware and allowing people to travel, which is basically what I said. Systems aren't infalliable of course and whilst rare, I'm not personally aware of any issues where people have been told to buy tickets / PF'd in similar sscenarios. Companies tend to err on the side of caution when there's some of system failure.

That terms and conditions shouldn't say "it's your own problem/fault" if things break, as for example the Railcard app terms currently state:

4.2. RDG does not accept any responsibility whatsoever for unavailability of the 'Railcard' App, or any difficulty or inability to download or access content or any other communication system failure which may result in the 'Railcard' app being unavailable.

4.3. RDG will not be responsible for any support or maintenance for the 'Railcard' app.

...

9.1. In no event will RDG be liable for any direct, indirect, special, punitive, exemplary or consequential losses or damages of whatsoever kind arising out of your use or access to the 'Railcard' app, including loss of profit or the like whether or not in the contemplation of the parties, whether based on breach of contract, tort (including negligence), product liability or otherwise.

Given that you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted if the Railcard app fails, those terms are unacceptable, just as one example.

I would be expecting terms to explicitly state that if they do something that breaks the app, they will fix it ASAP and that you will not face any penalties as a result.

 

[johncrossley]

Not with the Northern app. They’re still only providing m-tickets AFAIK, so you have to show it in the app.

Is there any reason to use the Northern app? I had an e-ticket bought using Cross Country and that came by email even though it was a Northern only Advance ticket.

 

[island]

That terms and conditions shouldn't say "it's your own problem/fault" if things break, as for example the Railcard app terms currently state:

...


Given that you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted if the Railcard app fails, those terms are unacceptable, just as one example.

I would be expecting terms to explicitly state that if they do something that breaks the app, they will fix it ASAP and that you will not face any penalties as a result.

I do not use the Railcard app partly for this reason.

 

[_toommm_]

Is there any reason to use the Northern app? I had an e-ticket bought using Cross Country and that came by email even though it was a Northern only Advance ticket.

Not that I can think of to be honest.

 

[miklcct]

I do not use the Railcard app partly for this reason.

So which app do you use for your digital railcards?

 

[James H]

It's a good example of why the e-ticket format is a good thing - if you've got the option to display the ticket in an app, but the PDF is also in your email, you don't have a single point of failure.

 

[neilmc]

I have a smart phone, a personal PC and a business PC but when it comes to catching trains (if I ever do) I prefer a piece of card in my wallet, and this thread is why.

 

[Darandio]

So which app do you use for your digital railcards?

Presumably they don't in this case and use physical.

 

[island]

So which app do you use for your digital railcards?

I only own physical Railcards and being aged over 31 there are no digital-only Railcards for which I am eligible.

 

[AlterEgo]

So which app do you use for your digital railcards?

I personally have a physical one, for the same reason @island outlines, that I bear responsibility for the Railcard app’s own failures. I keep my three year DSB card in a secure pouch next to my phone.

 

[Deerfold]

Since I resumed travel recently all my tickets have been downloaded to my phone (and forwarded to my wife's) but I also am sticking to physical railcards whilst I can't control its display.

 

[dosxuk]

If there's a fault with railway systems that aren't the fault of the customer they should of course be allowed to travel. That then relies on all relevant parties being aware and allowing people to travel and - as that is a departure from the norm - communicating that to all involved. That's basically what I've described. Systems aren't infalliable of course and whilst rare, I'm not personally aware of any issues where people have been told to buy tickets / PF'd in similar scenarios. Companies tend to err on the side of caution when there's some of system failure.

As others have pointed out, not when it's a Railcard issue. There the general instructions are to ask the on board staff nicely if they can sell you a new ticket, and then try and get a refund after you've travelled using the "I forgot my railcard" rules. They also say there is no requirement for staff to sell you a new ticket, and you may be PF'd in those circumstances, but you should be able to appeal it.

Having been caught up in two railcard app failures and using the Northern M-ticket system at the time, claiming refunds became a nightmare (pretty sure one didn't get refunded in the end, with RDG / Northern both pointing at each other saying it was the other party's problem), I decided to never use any form of rail ticketing that didn't involve a bit of card printed on one of their machines. If I lose a ticket it's my problem and my fault. If they break the apps it seems it's still the user's fault, and there's no guarantee of the rail industry making things right.

 

[talltim]

That terms and conditions shouldn't say "it's your own problem/fault" if things break, as for example the Railcard app terms currently state:

...


Given that you are liable to pay a Penalty Fare or be prosecuted if the Railcard app fails, those terms are unacceptable, just as one example.

I would be expecting terms to explicitly state that if they do something that breaks the app, they will fix it ASAP and that you will not face any penalties as a result.

Both those qotes refer to the the App, not the backend infrastructure. If you've got the access to the App, thats your bit done , even if the App can't access anything

 

[Watershed]

Both those qotes refer to the the App, not the backend infrastructure. If you've got the access to the App, thats your bit done , even if the App can't access anything

The problem is that Railcard discounted tickets aren't valid unless you can show the Railcard when asked to. As there is nothing in the Railcard conditions stating that you are exempt from this requirement if the app fails, you could be liable to anything from the excess to the undiscounted fare, up to being prosecuted, for a failure that's outside your control. And that's simply not on.

 

[robbeech]

And that's simply not on.

Maybe so, but it is how these things operate and it’s almost certainly the direction the railway wishes to head.

 

[setdown]

My brother bought and displays his digital railcard through the Trainline app. Could that be an alternative (with “friendlier” T&Cs) maybe?

 

[Deerfold]

My brother bought and displays his digital railcard through the Trainline app. Could that be an alternative (with “friendlier” T&Cs) maybe?

The problem Ts&Cs are those of the railway - if there's a problem with the Trainline app, they still won't be able to show a railcard and may be subject to the problems listed above.