Passengers getting confused by different TOCs or liveries.

[zero]

I've also met tourists on the Underground who have expected the line colours to appear on the actual trains. They also get confused because the Line name only appeared on the front of Circle Line trains, - if you wanted a District Train you had to look for one saying Richmond or Ealing or Wimbledon, not "District Line"

The colours generally do appear though, except for the S stock. The subsurface lines are generally a bit confusing to newcomers though, Wimbleware should perhaps be split out or become part of the "Circle line" but there aren't enough different colours and they won't use dedicated stock

 

[John Luxton]

People are confused by the Merseyrail (train operating company) vs Merseyrail (PTE branding for local train services within the county of Merseyside) thing. All the stations are similarly branded. How are people supposed to know that you can only use a Merseyrail DaySaver on the Northern or Wirral Lines, but not on the City Line?

I have been on Merseyrail a bit in the past few weeks and have seen posters as a number of stations promoting these tickets - but they do clearly state Wirral and Northern lines only. Perhaps there could be an argument that when the new 777 stock comes into service that Merseyrail was rebranded as "Mersey Railway" - a bit of heritage nostalgia as well a emphasising the difference?

 

[norbitonflyer]

The colours generally do appear though, except for the S stock.

More often in the trains (grabrails, for example), rather than on them.

 

[AlbertBeale]

The colours generally do appear though, except for the S stock. The subsurface lines are generally a bit confusing to newcomers though, Wimbleware should perhaps be split out or become part of the "Circle line" but there aren't enough different colours and they won't use dedicated stock

The interchangeable stock on much of the sub-surface Underground causes confusion for visitors, given that the line displays above the seats in many (all?) of the (non-Met) carriages alternate between District and Circle/H&C. I've several times had to help out people peering in a puzzled way at the line diagram in front of them if it doesn't seem to correlate with the journey/train they're on, and show them a different line diagram. I think this is a major problem with the mixing of rolling stock on these lines. The fact that the H&C diagram includes showing the Circle, but the District doesn't, means that correlating the two diagrams is difficult - though of course with the non-circular (in a topological sense) Circle now, that [adding the Circle to the District diagram] would add its own problems. I think that at least showing the Circle on the District diagram where the Circle shares tracks with the District might be helpful (ie from Edgware Road to Tower Hill, especially including the Earls Court "round the corner" connection), with the continuation just shown as a dotted line trailing off or something.

There have been times in the past when there were diagrams showing the H&C/Circle/District all on one diagram - though perhaps that ended up being a bit cramped. (Maybe it was in earlier rolling stock with a deeper space for the diagrams?) And there was also an era when the H&C/Circle diagrams included at least the "north-south" bit of the District, from Edgware Rd to Wimbledon.

 

[Ianno87]

When the Manchester to Holyhead "paupers' WAG" ran, quite a few people did not believe that this "inter-city" style train, with manually operated doors, could possibly be their local ATW service.

I've met people in Bolton who genuinely thought you weren't allowed to travel on the old Virgin XC service between there and Manchester, when it was Voyagers.

 

[317666]

The GTR madness causes all sort of confusion with their Gatwick Express Great Northern and Southern and Thameslink brands. And even Southeastern has been bought in to the confusion too.

At one point we had all of this mess at the same time:

• GX branded trains on SN branded services
• GX branded trains on TL branded services
• SN branded trains on GX branded services
• SN branded trains on SE branded services
• SN branded trains on TL branded services
• TL branded trains on GX branded services
• TL branded trains on SE branded services
• TL branded trains on SN branded services

There were even Gatwick Express services that went through Gatwick Airport non stop.

It is not quite as bad any more but there still is a lot of confusion.

Now more recently we have GX branded trains on hire to GN with the ridiculously confusing branding on the side that says "Great Northern Operated By Gatwick Express" which is sure to cause a ton of confusion.

Govia are experts at this sort of confusion.

Don't forget earlier this year during the Kings Cross works when 700s were diagrammed on a handful of Ely - Kings Cross services, plus a Cambridge - Kings Lynn peak extra. On more than one occasion I saw somebody let one go at Cambridge because "Thameslink don't go to King's Lynn" or "That's the Thameslink one which stops everywhere!"

 

[chris_in_salop]

I was recently at Birmingham international when a passenger asked me which of our 2 carriages was first class. As always, I told him all our trains are first class (as a joke) and he got on. It wasn’t until New Street when he got off shouting at me that I realised he was being serious and he had paid for an Avanti 1st ticket. Still…. Made me chuckle.

Still, at least you got one up on the self-loading freight, eh? Doubtless when the revolution comes, those top-hatted plutocrats will be first against the wall.

 

[LRV3004]

Still, at least you got one up on the self-loading freight, eh? Doubtless when the revolution comes, those top-hatted plutocrats will be first against the wall.

Along the lines of freight (apologies for going off on a slight tangent here), a few years ago I was the shunter/guard on a freight service. While swapping over crews at a station to return with a southbound train, a woman with a bike came ambling up and asked me at which part of the train would her bike go…….

 

[DustyBin]

Along the lines of freight (apologies for going off on a slight tangent here), a few years ago I was the shunter/guard on a freight service. While swapping over crews at a station to return with a southbound train, a woman with a bike came ambling up and asked me at which part of the train would her bike go…….

A few years ago I was on a 142 leaving Darlington southbound and a gentleman who had just boarded turned around and asked me “this is the London train isn’t it?”….

 

[Ianno87]

A few years ago I was on a 142 leaving Darlington southbound and a gentleman who had just boarded turned around and asked me “this is the London train isn’t it?”….

My best is a lady getting on a Pendolino at New Street and asking "is this the train to King's Norton?"

 

[DustyBin]

My best is a lady getting on a Pendolino at New Street and asking "is this the train to King's Norton?"

I realise the average person knows very little about railways, certainly compared to the likes of us on this forum, but really?

 

[ExRes]

My best is a lady getting on a Pendolino at New Street and asking "is this the train to King's Norton?"

My all time favourite was the man at Derby who asked the TM and me "Is this the train that I want?"

 

[godfreycomplex]

Reminds me of the tale some years ago where a suited businessman almost had to be restrained from climbing onto a tamper at Woking as he was absolutely convinced it was the Godalming train

Still, at least you got one up on the self-loading freight, eh? Doubtless when the revolution comes, those top-hatted plutocrats will be first against the wall.

Catch yourself on

 

[flitwickbeds]

A few years ago I was on a 142 leaving Darlington southbound and a gentleman who had just boarded turned around and asked me “this is the London train isn’t it?”….

My best is a lady getting on a Pendolino at New Street and asking "is this the train to King's Norton?"

Hahahaha, what idiots they are! Surely everyone can just see a tiny part of a train and immediately tell what class it is, and from there which TOC it belongs to and its exact calling pattern. What absolute doofuses those people were.

 

[py_megapixel]

The confusion in the terminology will persist until several present generations of Londoners have all died out

Or until TfL succeeds in their aim to control all of the London commuter services, when the two meanings will become one again!

 

[DustyBin]

Hahahaha, what idiots they are! Surely everyone can just see a tiny part of a train and immediately tell what class it is, and from there which TOC it belongs to and its exact calling pattern. What absolute doofuses those people were.

Not quite, obviously. However two carriages and 3+2 bus seats would suggest (to most people) that the train isn’t a long distance Intercity service… As per my post #41 above, you don’t need to be an enthusiast to figure it out surely?

 

[1955LR]

Not quite, obviously. However two carriages and 3+2 bus seats would suggest (to most people) that the train isn’t a long distance Intercity service… As per my post #41 above, you don’t need to be an enthusiast to figure it out surely?

I cannot see why one should imagine that passengers should be expected to have any idea that the "class" of train could/ should have any bearing on its route or usage. When I first started to use rail travel after I had retired I had no idea what to expect , it was all new and in previous posts on this forum one can see instances where 3+2 seating , and attendant complaints, is used on long distance travel.

 

[DustyBin]

I cannot see why one should imagine that passengers should be expected to have any idea that the "class" of train could/ should have any bearing on its route or usage. When I first started to use rail travel after I had retired I had no idea what to expect , it was all new and in previous posts on this forum one can see instances where 3+2 seating is used on long distance travel

You may well be correct, however I find it surprising that anybody could board a pacer thinking it would be operating a service from Darlington to Kings Cross. At the time this service would have been Class 91+MK4 operated to put it in perspective. Of course 3+2 seating is used on long distance trains but again, this was a pacer with 3+2 bus seats, not a !00mph EMU. Perhaps the gentleman had never been on a train in his life but I still find it surprising and slightly amusing that somebody could have so little idea as to what to expect!

 

[BayPaul]

Back when Northern hired TPX 185s on Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow services it was always quite a task to explain to passengers why they couldn’t board with a “TPE only” ticket to Preston, given it was a TPE train!

It is ridiculous if ticketing rules of this kind are enforced in situations like this. The only sensible option would be for both operators tickets to be valid.

 

[MP393]

It is ridiculous if ticketing rules of this kind are enforced in situations like this. The only sensible option would be for both operators tickets to be valid.

A lot of discretion was used, in my experience anyway. Although I can’t talk for others.

 

[Nova1]

Back when Northern hired TPX 185s on Manchester - Blackpool/Barrow services it was always quite a task to explain to passengers why they couldn’t board with a “TPE only” ticket to Preston, given it was a TPE train!

It's just lazy from the TOCs that are using the units.

WMR are still running around with trains in EMR livery and a few sets in chiltern liveries, but atleast they have bothered to cover all the chiltern and emr branding and put "west midlands railway" on the side.

 

[MP393]

It's just lazy from the TOCs that are using the units.

WMR are still running around with trains in EMR livery and a few sets in chiltern liveries, but atleast they have bothered to cover all the chiltern and emr branding and put "west midlands railway" on the side.

The problem in this situation when we hired the TPX 185s was that it was never the same units each day. In fact they actually worked a York - Manchester Airport TPE service and then a Manchester Airport - Blackpool North Northern service at one point before the timetable change, so it would have been difficult to brand and unbrand units each day which were going onto the Northern diagram. Fully agree with you though, and if they were hired for more of a long term period then it would make sense to brand them up

 

[andrewbowden]

More often in the trains (grabrails, for example), rather than on them.

It's in the windows of the deep level stock - or certainly used to be.

For example:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xlgpUoqNElc/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[Ianno87]

Hahahaha, what idiots they are! Surely everyone can just see a tiny part of a train and immediately tell what class it is, and from there which TOC it belongs to and its exact calling pattern. What absolute doofuses those people were.

Confusing a Pendolino for a 323 is a pretty big stretch even for the least familiar travellers. Wasn't even vaguely the same platform at New Street (Platform 5 vs Platform 12)

 

[thedbdiboy]

I wonder how many passengers have been confused by the C2C 387s on Newbury - Reading services as "they didn't say GWR"

There's no attempt to amend the branding even temporarily

 

[NoRoute]

Confusing a Pendolino for a 323 is a pretty big stretch even for the least familiar travellers. Wasn't even vaguely the same platform at New Street (Platform 5 vs Platform 12)

If someone rarely takes the train and has no interest in the railways, then unless Thomas the tank engine rolls upto the platform, the passenger is probably going to assume this is potentially their train.

Personally I don't understand why the rail industry struggles with basic concepts like clear and obvious branding and logos, lots of companies manage to clearly brand their vehicles even when they're not serving passengers. I think part of the issue is the brands and logos change everytime the franchise changes, the franchises need to retain the same brand identity even where the franchise changes.

 

[Spartacus]

....unless Thomas the tank engine rolls upto the platform, the passenger is probably going to assume this is potentially their train.

You'd be amazed at the number of people who attempt to join steam charters thinking they're regular service train, and not just on occasions where the loco isn't visible, I've known the loco to roll right past them, hauling premier dining stock or Pullmans, and they STILL ask, and occasionally still get on. I think even if that loco WAS Thomas, complete with face, it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference.

 

[coppercapped]

These stories about confused passengers are as old as the hills, some may be true, others apocryphal. Apparently the names of some of the London Brighton and South Coast Railway's locomotives, Stepney, Ewell, Cheam, Kemptown and similar caused many Victorian travellers to miss their trains or end up at the wrong place.

There's nothing new under the sun...

 

[scrapy]

I have been on Merseyrail a bit in the past few weeks and have seen posters as a number of stations promoting these tickets - but they do clearly state Wirral and Northern lines only. Perhaps there could be an argument that when the new 777 stock comes into service that Merseyrail was rebranded as "Mersey Railway" - a bit of heritage nostalgia as well a emphasising the difference?

Stating Wirral and Northern lines only doesn't make it any clearer. Given that most of the trains on the 'city lines' say Northern on the outside and are advertised on the PIS as (Northern) or (operated by Northern) yet the stations have Merseyrail branding. Why wouldn't passengers they are the Northern line of Merseyrail at Huyton for example when Northern is emblazoned down the side of the trains?

 

[Pigeon]

Personally I don't understand why the rail industry struggles with basic concepts like clear and obvious branding and logos, lots of companies manage to clearly brand their vehicles even when they're not serving passengers. I think part of the issue is the brands and logos change everytime the franchise changes, the franchises need to retain the same brand identity even where the franchise changes.

It's not just the rail industry. There was (dunno if they're still going) an energy PPP who decided to call themselves e. HTF you are supposed to find that on google is anyone's guess. What's really hard to understand is how there can still be so many people around who have never used a search engine to be thinking up these stupid names.

Personally I think they should just get rid of the whole silly mess altogether. Paint all the stock blue and grey with no logos anywhere and if anyone really does care what is the name of the company operating the train this week then they can stick it on a paper label in the door underneath the list of destinations, Rail Alphabet font and plain text only. Knock the saved cost of all the endless repainting off the fares, ditto the cost of the acid tabs used in concocting the new colour schemes, and if any company insists on calling themselves by a stupid name like First or One they are instantly disqualified.