Passengers obstructing lift doors

[SimonR2]

For me one of the infuriating things about travelling on the Tube is the number of times someone will squeeze through the lift doors at the last nanosecond when the lift is just about to take off, causing the doors to retract and then other people enter the lift, rinse and repeat. This morning was particularly annoying when there were only three of us in the lift in Chalk Farm and the doors were only a third/quarter open, only for a woman to stop them with her foot. In a minute or so the lift was almost full following people cramming through the doors on several occasions. My organization uses hot desking and as a result of this delay, I almost missed working in my desired work area (I was lucky my colleague who was just in front of me when entering the building didn't have his security pass ready).

I have done a bit of Googling on this and it seems this behaviour isn't as frowned on as people obstructing train doors - indeed, in some places (like the USA and even the north of this country) it's considered bad etiquette NOT to hold the lift doors open, but maybe this applies more to lifts in tower blocks and offices. But that the fact that you have a clearly audible warning that the doors are closing and passengers (at least at some stations) are told not to obstruct the doors (albeit only when the delay has been caused) suggests that this is inconsiderate behaviour. You might say other passengers are just as much if not more in a hurry, but given Chalk Farm only has 53 steps, it probably would have taken less time for this woman to use the stairs than the time it took for everyone to get on and the lift to reach the ticket hall.

As it turned out after all that time the lift was out of service - I know nothing about how lifts work, could that have been caused by all those obstructions?

 

[bramling]

For me one of the infuriating things about travelling on the Tube is the number of times someone will squeeze through the lift doors at the last nanosecond when the lift is just about to take off, causing the doors to retract and then other people enter the lift, rinse and repeat. This morning was particularly annoying when there were only three of us in the lift in Chalk Farm and the doors were only a third/quarter open, only for a woman to stop them with her foot. In a minute or so the lift was almost full following people cramming through the doors on several occasions. My organization uses hot desking and as a result of this delay, I almost missed working in my desired work area (I was lucky my colleague who was just in front of me when entering the building didn't have his security pass ready).

I have done a bit of Googling on this and it seems this behaviour isn't as frowned on as people obstructing train doors - indeed, in some places (like the USA and even the north of this country) it's considered bad etiquette NOT to hold the lift doors open, but maybe this applies more to lifts in tower blocks and offices. But that the fact that you have a clearly audible warning that the doors are closing and passengers (at least at some stations) are told not to obstruct the doors (albeit only when the delay has been caused) suggests that this is inconsiderate behaviour. You might say other passengers are just as much if not more in a hurry, but given Chalk Farm only has 53 steps, it probably would have taken less time for this woman to use the stairs than the time it took for everyone to get on and the lift to reach the ticket hall.

As it turned out after all that time the lift was out of service - I know nothing about how lifts work, could that have been caused by all those obstructions?

Agree it’s infuriating, and I find it pretty selfish to the point of being arrogant. However it’s been going on for years, ever since the days of unmanned lifts, so there’s probably little value in getting angry about it.

A further issue is people find that lift doors work like this, then expect to do the same with train doors, and find is a surprise when they don’t re-open.

Another nuisance at Chalk Farm is the spiral stairs are quite well used because they are fairly short, and people don’t keep on the correct side. Fortunately Belsize Park and Hampstead don’t have this problem; it always amuses me when people blindly follow up the spirals at Hampstead and then find they don’t have the fitness to make it even part of the way.

 

[Magdalia]

it probably would have taken less time for this woman to use the stairs

I'm unable to do many stairs for health reasons so I use lifts a lot. It might be that "this woman" is unable to do 53 stairs. I know I can't.

You might say other passengers are just as much if not more in a hurry

I almost missed working in my desired work area

Lots of people will be in a hurry for far more important things than getting their favourite desk. Chalk Farm is one of the nearest stations to the Royal Free Hospital, "this woman" could have been in a hurry to get there.

indeed, in some places (like the USA and even the north of this country) it's considered bad etiquette NOT to hold the lift doors open

As someone who avoids stairs for health reasons, I think it very bad etiquette not to hold the lift doors open for me, and I will hold the doors open for people following me into the lift.

This morning was particularly annoying when there were only three of us in the lift in Chalk Farm and the doors were only a third/quarter open, only for a woman to stop them with her foot.

The woman did that because you didn't hold the doors for her.

In a minute or so the lift was almost full following people cramming through the doors on several occasions.

This is the most efficient use of limited lift capacity at peak times. Those people didn't have to wait for a near empty lift to go up to surface level and come back down again.

Maybe you are the one who should be using the stairs, and leaving the lift for those in greater need than you?

 

[hexagon789]

Certainly on TfL it's a byelaw offence, not sure about National Rail.

 

[Purple Train]

If there is space in the lift (for instance, only three people), in my opinion, it is good etiquette to hold the lift doors open if someone is clearly attempting to make it before the doors shut. Obviously that's a bit of a grey area, but it's one of the few grey areas that I think can genuinely be put down to common sense. If someone does not abide by that good etiquette, then the lift doors shouldn't be obstructed, though. Two wrongs do not make a right.

 

[Spamcan81]

Recently at Stevenage, I went to use the lift up to the main concourse. I was first in but many more passengers piled in after me and then the automated message came over. There were too many people in the lift for it to work. Nobody got out of course until I decided to do so. A bit annoying really as I’d been first in, but I had the last laugh as I got to the top of the steps before the lift as others were slow to heed the instructions.

 

[bramling]

I'm unable to do many stairs for health reasons so I use lifts a lot. It might be that "this woman" is unable to do 53 stairs. I know I can't.




Lots of people will be in a hurry for far more important things than getting their favourite desk. Chalk Farm is one of the nearest stations to the Royal Free Hospital, "this woman" could have been in a hurry to get there.


As someone who avoids stairs for health reasons, I think it very bad etiquette not to hold the lift doors open for me, and I will hold the doors open for people following me into the lift.


The woman did that because you didn't hold the doors for her.


This is the most efficient use of limited lift capacity at peak times. Those people didn't have to wait for a near empty lift to go up to surface level and come back down again.

Maybe you are the one who should be using the stairs, and leaving the lift for those in greater need than you?

Gosh I never realised that using a lift seems to be such a complex exercise in passive-aggressive etiquette.

Personally I would absolutely not hold a lift by obstructing a door, not least as it then encourages people to do the same with train doors - which is potentially dangerous when people develop the erroneous idea that all doors will open when obstructed.

If it’s considered good etiquette to hold a lift for someone (I’m not sure that’s universal, I for one have no expectation of it) then it should be via an open button, which if they’re not provided is an indication that the operator of the lift doesn’t want people interfering with their operation. At Chalk Farm this is further reinforced by the presence of an admonishing message if someone does choose to obstruct the doors.

Must admit I prefer to simply use stairs and avoid all this nonsense. Also on LU since the Fit For The Future changes there are plenty of horror stories of people being stuck in lifts for ages with staff being unsure what to do, so at least using the stairs avoids that issue as well, whilst at the same time contributing to building a good VO2 max.

 

[Magdalia]

Gosh I never realised that using a lift seems to be such a complex exercise in passive-aggressive etiquette.

My first job in London was in a tower block so I was doing at least 4 long lift journeys every working day. I quickly learned that it is possible to tell a great deal about people, and how they interact with others, by observing how they behave in lifts. Once, I worked out that the relationship between two of my team members had gone beyond the workspace, just by how they behaved when they were in the lift together.

 

[bramling]

My first job in London was in a tower block so I was doing at least 4 long lift journeys every working day. I quickly learned that it is possible to tell a great deal about people, and how they interact with others, by observing how they behave in lifts. Once, I worked out that the relationship between two of my team members had gone beyond the workspace, just by how they behaved when they were in the lift together.

I tend to avoid lifts, so my personality must be insular!

 

[Mikey C]

The only irritation I have with Underground lifts, is that due to a continuous stream of people piling on the first lift, they tend to bunch, so that you end up with long waits, and then both lifts arriving at much the same time!

In an ideal world you'd then have a member of staff holding one lift back to "regulate the service", but of course that's unaffordable.

 

[thomalex]

I think one of the issues nowadays is with the number of people wearing headphones you sometime don't hear the chime that the doors are closing.

I was guilty of this myself recently on a tube and got partly jammed in the doors when I boarded just as the doors closed.

The large, flashing red strip lights that are being introduced on the new Piccadilly and DLR stock I believe should help this, maybe something to consider in lifts.

 

[randyrippley]

If waiting three minutes for a lift door to open and close is really going to affect your day that badly, then it's time to get out of bed earlier.
The lifts are for everyone, not just the OP

 

[AY1975]

Certainly on TfL it's a byelaw offence, not sure about National Rail.

Is it a byelaw offence to press the door open button in a lift after the doors have started to close, or only if you physically get in the way of the doors closing? I'm guessing the latter (hence the recorded announcements in some lifts "Please do not obstruct the doors").

 

[hexagon789]

Is it a byelaw offence to press the door open button in a lift after the doors have started to close, or only if you physically get in the way of the doors closing? I'm guessing the latter (hence the recorded announcements in some lifts "Please do not obstruct the doors").

'(5)No person shall move, operate or stop any lift or escalator on the railway except - (ii) in the case of a lift, by means of any of the ccontrols intended for the use by that person.'

So yes, I would agree with your interpretation. Obstructing with one's body is a no-no, re-opening doors using the door control buttons is fine.

 

[Egg Centric]

Gosh I never realised that using a lift seems to be such a complex exercise in passive-aggressive etiquette.

Personally I would absolutely not hold a lift by obstructing a door, not least as it then encourages people to do the same with train doors - which is potentially dangerous when people develop the erroneous idea that all doors will open when obstructed.

If it’s considered good etiquette to hold a lift for someone (I’m not sure that’s universal, I for one have no expectation of it) then it should be via an open button, which if they’re not provided is an indication that the operator of the lift doesn’t want people interfering with their operation. At Chalk Farm this is further reinforced by the presence of an admonishing message if someone does choose to obstruct the doors.

Must admit I prefer to simply use stairs and avoid all this nonsense. Also on LU since the Fit For The Future changes there are plenty of horror stories of people being stuck in lifts for ages with staff being unsure what to do, so at least using the stairs avoids that issue as well, whilst at the same time contributing to building a good VO2 max.

My first job in London was in a tower block so I was doing at least 4 long lift journeys every working day. I quickly learned that it is possible to tell a great deal about people, and how they interact with others, by observing how they behave in lifts. Once, I worked out that the relationship between two of my team members had gone beyond the workspace, just by how they behaved when they were in the lift together.

If there is space in the lift (for instance, only three people), in my opinion, it is good etiquette to hold the lift doors open if someone is clearly attempting to make it before the doors shut. Obviously that's a bit of a grey area, but it's one of the few grey areas that I think can genuinely be put down to common sense. If someone does not abide by that good etiquette, then the lift doors shouldn't be obstructed, though. Two wrongs do not make a right.

I'm with the latter two posters here. Honestly it's never even occurred to me before that other people would think otherwise, so it's quite the eye opener as I do see Bramling and OP's point (even if I disagree with it).

Need signs to set an expectation here I think!

 

[boiledbeans2]

Need signs to set an expectation here I think!

Don't give TfL any ideas! Soon, you'll have a member of staff in front of the lift door with a megaphone, "THE LIFT IS ABOUT TO DEPART!!! PLEASE STAND BEHIND THE YELLOW LINE!!!!"

 

[pelli]

From a naive mathematical point of view, the delay D incurred by holding the lift for one person (maybe 10 seconds?) should be taken if the total time N*D lost for the other N people already in the lift is less than the wait W that the one person would incur waiting for the next lift (maybe 80 seconds for a full lift return trip at Chalk Farm if only one lift available?). As a result, the lift should be held if and only if the number of people already on board is less than the ratio W/D (maybe 8?). (If slamming - or rather sliding? - the door in someone's face seems harsh to you, just remember that the W seconds they lost today is more than made up for by the D seconds they save on each of N other days when they will be one of the people in the lift slamming the door in someone else's face! Unless there is some reason why that particular person consistently ends up arriving just as the lift is ready to depart...)

This calculation misses the fact that holding the lift does not delay just the people on board, but also the people waiting at the other end for its return journey, so a more accurate criterion is that the number of people already on board plus the number of people that are, or will be, waiting for the return journey (which you normally will have to estimate statistically since you can't see what's happening at the other end) is less than W/D. (If you hold the lift then there will also be some people who would have missed the return trip that will make it, but on average their saving is exactly cancelled by the loss of the following people whose journey with the next return trip will also be delayed.) This means in particular that when the loading of the lift on its return trip is expected to exceed W/D (e.g. due to large peak flows) then it should not be held for someone trying to join the outbound trip even if it's empty.

The analysis is made more complicated if there are two lifts (which I believe is the case at Chalk Farm). Naively you would just say that W is halved on average so the critical number W/D is also halved, but the key to reducing waiting times in the long run is to avoid the lifts bunching up, as Mikey C pointed out. Luckily, the way to correct lift bunching is to send off the first lift of the bunch (which the large crowd that has built up tries to squeeze on) as fast as possible while holding back the second lift (which is typically much emptier), which is consistent with the strategy of only holding the lift if it is sufficiently empty, although it's more difficult to judge the threshold in that case. Often there are displays showing the location of all lifts so you can tell whether a lift is first or second in the bunch, and act accordingly by holding the lift if and only if it's the second one.

 

[jon0844]

Maybe you are the one who should be using the stairs, and leaving the lift for those in greater need than you?

I am surprised you'd suggest someone use the stairs who may have very good reason to need the lift. Who determines who has the greatest need? Top Trumps cards with ratings for various disabilities and needs?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Surely if there is still space in the lift then common curtesy is to hold the doors if you see someone trying to get into the lift? Shutting the doors on someone when ther is still space for more people is the selfish act.

 

[jon0844]

Surely if there is still space in the lift then common curtesy is to hold the doors if you see someone trying to get into the lift? Shutting the doors on someone when ther is still space for more people is the selfish act.

Yes, but there comes a point where you need to let the lift, erm, lift. Plus, chances are that if you allow the lift to get completely full it will become overweight and not move.

 

[hexagon789]

Surely if there is still space in the lift then common curtesy is to hold the doors if you see someone trying to get into the lift? Shutting the doors on someone when ther is still space for more people is the selfish act.

No.

 

[bramling]

Surely if there is still space in the lift then common curtesy is to hold the doors if you see someone trying to get into the lift? Shutting the doors on someone when ther is still space for more people is the selfish act.

Pressing a close button I’d agree would be selfish, but just allowing the lift to do its thing isn’t selfish, it’s simply neutral. I *might* think about pressing an open button (if one is there) but I absolutely wouldn’t obstruct a door for someone.

Apart from anything else, it doesn’t do the lift much good, most of the lifts on LU are unreliable enough as it is, without people using them in ways that aren’t intended.

To be honest, for many people an excursion up a flight of stairs (especially a modest one like at Chalk Farm) would do their physical health some much-needed good. It’s somewhere between shocking and grotesque just how badly some people cope when, for example, they have to walk up a spiral staircase or an escalator, and something that in many cases is entirely within their own gift to deal with.

 

[Purple Train]

Pressing a close button I’d agree would be selfish, but just allowing the lift to do its thing isn’t selfish, it’s simply neutral. I *might* think about pressing an open button (if one is there) but I absolutely wouldn’t obstruct a door for someone.

I don't read any post as suggesting physically holding the doors, as that is against bye-laws. I can't remember the last time I saw a lift without an open button, though!

 

[Magdalia]

I am surprised you'd suggest someone use the stairs who may have very good reason to need the lift.

It was the OP doing that, not me.

Who determines who has the greatest need?

People with good manners are doing that all of the time, and without consciously thinking about it. The important thing is not to assume that the greatest need is your own.

Top Trumps cards with ratings for various disabilities and needs?

In particular it is important to remember that not all disabilities are visible.

 

[bramling]

It was the OP doing that, not me.


People with good manners are doing that all of the time, and without consciously thinking about it. The important thing is not to assume that the greatest need is your own.


In particular it is important to remember that not all disabilities are visible.

Whilst I very much understand the point about disabilities, it does remain the case that a good proportion of people are just plain lazy, or in some cases don’t even think things through but just follow the crowd.

 

[The exile]

Surely if there is still space in the lift then common curtesy is to hold the doors if you see someone trying to get into the lift? Shutting the doors on someone when ther is still space for more people is the selfish act.

It’s when “traffic” is light and you’ve already held the doors three times that it starts to get irritating! If only H&S didn’t preclude the installation of paternosters! (Joke - in case anyone’s wondering)

 

[jon0844]

It was the OP doing that, not me.


People with good manners are doing that all of the time, and without consciously thinking about it. The important thing is not to assume that the greatest need is your own.


In particular it is important to remember that not all disabilities are visible.

My apologies. There must have been a forum glitch as I thought I saw you write 'Maybe you are the one who should be using the stairs, and leaving the lift for those in greater need than you?'.

You are indeed correct, not all disabilities are visible. It's important that all people remember this and respect it, so as not to suggest some people maybe don't use the lift or that other people have a greater need.

 

[The exile]

You are indeed correct, not all disabilities are visible. It's important that all people remember this and respect it, so as not to suggest some people maybe don't use the lift or that other people have a greater need.

What on earth is wrong with suggesting in general that some people have greater need of a lift than others and that it would do many (including myself!) good to take the stairs sometimes? It is a fact! Applying it to specific individuals is of course a different matter (a matter of common courtesy for a start).

 

[AlbertBeale]

The only irritation I have with Underground lifts, is that due to a continuous stream of people piling on the first lift, they tend to bunch, so that you end up with long waits, and then both lifts arriving at much the same time!

In an ideal world you'd then have a member of staff holding one lift back to "regulate the service", but of course that's unaffordable.

Are there no lifts anywhere on the Underground which ever have staff in them these days? (Even if just using an override control at busy times in a lift which can also work OK without staff present.)

 

[bramling]

Are there no lifts anywhere on the Underground which ever have staff in them these days? (Even if just using an override control at busy times in a lift which can also work OK without staff present.)

The nearest thing is Covent Garden, where staff often work the lifts manually from the upper landing. I think this is the only station where this happens, unless anyone knows different.