Pay Increase after changing TOC?

[GriffoBrighton]

How do folks,

Just a quick one. I know I am not alone with this one as there are at least 5 people at my depot alone that are affected by this.

I left a TOC in May this year after 3 years of service and started a role at another TOC.

Should the recent proposal be accepted by the RMT membership, we may not receive the back dated pay from thr previous TOC, and, we may not in a position to receive it from our present employers.

Is there anyone in this position on this forum or do you know of anyone at your depot that is also affected by this???

Please feel free to DM me

 

[Snow1964]

You will need to clarify how you left previous job. Did you voluntarily leave (choose to resign because you had found another job to go to). Or were you transferred (TUPE) etc.

Generally back pay only applies to those still employed at date of agreement to award pay back. There is no normal legal entitlement to it if you chose to leave. Similar if a company decides to pay a bonus, only those still working get it even if it was related to performance 3-15 months ago.

Of course your current employer is likely to apply it from start date of employment (unless you signed a new contract with a specific salary value, rather than a scale rate). They are not going to give you a rise for before you worked for them.

If you were TUPEd then would be deemed continuous employment so would expect the back pay to apply, and your new employer would have to pay it if that is what they have agreed for back pay with unions (previous employer only had to pay you to TUPE date, then off their books).

Best to read small print of your employment contract if you are uncertain what it says, remember any historic custom and practice is non contractual, is at discretion of both employer and employee.

 

[GriffoBrighton]

You will need to clarify how you left previous job. Did you voluntarily leave (choose to resign because you had found another job to go to). Or were you transferred (TUPE) etc.

Generally back pay only applies to those still employed at date of agreement to award pay back. There is no normal legal entitlement to it if you chose to leave. Similar if a company decides to pay a bonus, only those still working get it even if it was related to performance 3-15 months ago.

Of course your current employer is likely to apply it from start date of employment (unless you signed a new contract with a specific salary value, rather than a scale rate). They are not going to give you a rise for before you worked for them.

If you were TUPEd then would be deemed continuous employment so would expect the back pay to apply, and your new employer would have to pay it if that is what they have agreed for back pay with unions (previous employer only had to pay you to TUPE date, then off their books).

Best to read small print of your employment contract if you are uncertain what it says, remember any historic custom and practice is non contractual, is at discretion of both employer and employee.

Thanks for that

I was kind of half expecting that answer. I voluntarily left one TOC for a job on another.

 

[ComUtoR]

My TOC will absolutely pay it. It is not paid automatically and any previous employee will need to apply to the payroll department to have it paid.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

My TOC will absolutely pay it. It is not paid automatically and any previous employee will need to apply to the payroll department to have it paid.

As will mine, they have already said as much before this offer. Just have to go through the union

 

[GalaxyDog]

My TOC will absolutely pay it. It is not paid automatically and any previous employee will need to apply to the payroll department to have it paid.

As will mine, they have already said as much before this offer. Just have to go through the union

Would it be alright to enquire which TOCs these are please? (if you feel this is a tad private, DM is fine) I'm following as I am in the same position, having left my TOC only a few weeks ago voluntarily for a new role elsewhere in the industry. Many thanks

 

[GriffoBrighton]

Sure

I left TransPennine Express to go to LNER

As will mine, they have already said as much before this offer. Just have to go through the union

Would you get in touch through a DM if you don't mind???

 

[whoosh]

My view of this is that your new LNER job should get a new rate of pay soon, and that that should backdate to when you joined in May 2023 - this is your grade's April 2022 raise running late, or whatever month your grade's pay anniversary is.

You should also get a backdated payment to May 2023 (or less if your grade's pay anniversary is later in the year)when the 2023 pay deal is negotiated in the new year after Christmas.

Your salary for TPE as far back as April 2022 (or whatever month your pay anniversary was there) is less clear. If you were still there, you would get back pay, but I am unsure as to the status of your entitlement to pay (or any discretionary amount) from them.
Speak to a union rep.

TPE backpay may be something you can be entitled to, be entitled to but have to claim, be able to claim but it be discretionary, or not be able to have on a, "Hard luck, that was the salary you were on when you left and you can't have any more even though a pay deal was delayed," basis.

Good luck and I hope you get all that you are owed.

 

[GriffoBrighton]

My view of this is that your new LNER job should get a new rate of pay soon, and that that should backdate to when you joined in May 2023 - this is your grade's April 2022 raise running late, or whatever month your grade's pay anniversary is.

You should also get a backdated payment to May 2023 (or less if your grade's pay anniversary is later in the year)when the 2023 pay deal is negotiated in the new year after Christmas.

Your salary for TPE as far back as April 2022 (or whatever month your pay anniversary was there) is less clear. If you were still there, you would get back pay, but I am unsure as to the status of your entitlement to pay (or any discretionary amount) from them.
Speak to a union rep.

TPE backpay may be something you can be entitled to, be entitled to but have to claim, be able to claim but it be discretionary, or not be able to have on a, "Hard luck, that was the salary you were on when you left and you can't have any more even though a pay deal was delayed," basis.

Good luck and I hope you get all that you are owed.

Thanks for getting back to me

 

[Shunter2022]

A quick question regarding the back pay. My pay anniversary is October 2022 so I should be expecting 13 months roughly if its accepted! I'm due to start as a trainee driver in December with the same TOC does anyone know if i still receive the backpay for my previous role?

 

[Snow1964]

A quick question regarding the back pay. My pay anniversary is October 2022 so I should be expecting 13 months roughly if its accepted! I'm due to start as a trainee driver in December with the same TOC does anyone know if i still receive the backpay for my previous role?

The back pay will include the previous role within same company (TOC) at rate applicable to role being worked at the time.

Yours is classic example of why it takes so long to do back pay as will all have to be calculated manually then checked, the period in old role at rate 1, then period in new role at rate 2, then deduct any non working days (eg strikes). That is why many companies never do back pay, need an army of clerks to process it.

 

[800 Driver]

Unless you were TUPE'd over why would you get back pay from a previous employer, as you contract of employment has ended?

 

[Yfg132]

Unless you were TUPE'd over why would you get back pay from a previous employer, as you contract of employment has ended?

Because that's the rate of pay you should have been receiving at that time. Its a delayed pay rise which should of happened in 2022, not a bonus.

 

[Snow1964]

Because that's the rate of pay you should have been receiving at that time. Its a delayed pay rise which should have happened in 2022, not a bonus.

Does seem bit silly giving it to those who voluntarily left before back pay was agreed. They chose not to wait for it, so wonder why they weren't excluded when it was agreed.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Does seem bit silly giving it to those who voluntarily left before back pay was agreed. They chose not to wait for it, so wonder why they weren't excluded when it was agreed.

Not really, the pay anniversary was when they were in the role. It's not the individual's fault that it was given at a later day.

You could argue that someone that was dismissed forfeits the back pay, but if you worked after when the pay 'should' have gone up, you've not been paid correctly. It's always best to agree in advance to prevent this situation. You can't be locked into a job pending a pay rise that has been delayed by nigh in 2 years.

Thankfully, RMT seems to agree. There will be many putting in claims, and I would imagine the vast majority being successful.

 

[800 Driver]

Because that's the rate of pay you should have been receiving at that time. Its a delayed pay rise which should of happened in 2022, not a bonus.

No, it will be a payrise, back dated to a date for current employees, it's not deferred pay. I very much doubt anyone that left a toc will get their pay backdated.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

No, it will be a payrise, back dated to a date for current employees, it's not deferred pay. I very much doubt anyone that left a toc will get their pay backdated.

LLC and Company Council confirmed they would for our TOC many months ago. To be raised through the RMT

 

[GalaxyDog]

LLC and Company Council confirmed they would for our TOC many months ago. To be raised through the RMT

When you say 'to be raised through RMT', is this meaning that you have to speak to RMT yourself, or simply that RMT will be ensuring that it will be part of the agreement? Asking as I can't simply contact my old reps.

 

[ModernRailways]

When you say 'to be raised through RMT', is this meaning that you have to speak to RMT yourself, or simply that RMT will be ensuring that it will be part of the agreement? Asking as I can't simply contact my old reps.

I have a friend who has left the railway and thus the RMT. They would’ve been entitled to this pay rise, and they took part in strikes etc so it would be good to know where they stand with this also, they can’t really contact a rep when they’re no longer part of said union so, I presume and is what I have advised them, the best cause of action for them is to contact our HR department and hope for the best.

 

[Gemz91]

I have a friend who has left the railway and thus the RMT. They would’ve been entitled to this pay rise, and they took part in strikes etc so it would be good to know where they stand with this also, they can’t really contact a rep when they’re no longer part of said union so, I presume and is what I have advised them, the best cause of action for them is to contact our HR department and hope for the best.

I have a friend who moved companies within the railways, when doing so they left the RMT.

When an agreement came in for backpay to be paid, the RMT fought for a friend of theirs who had also changed roles but remained in the RMT and successfully got the money paid. How ever, the RMT refused to fight for my friends back pay as they were no longer part of the RMT. My friend tried to argue that as they were part of the RMT when he worked there they felt the RMT should still represent them. But the RMT wouldn’t represent them so they didn’t receive any back pay.

Personally, when I’ve recently taken on a new role, I’ve done so with the expectation that I may not receive any back pay. If I do, it’s a bonus. If I don’t, then so be it.

 

[GalaxyDog]

I have a friend who has left the railway and thus the RMT. They would’ve been entitled to this pay rise, and they took part in strikes etc so it would be good to know where they stand with this also, they can’t really contact a rep when they’re no longer part of said union so, I presume and is what I have advised them, the best cause of action for them is to contact our HR department and hope for the best.

See, Ive retained RMT membership for the while as am still railway wirkijg somewhat, so am hopeful this will work out.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

When you say 'to be raised through RMT', is this meaning that you have to speak to RMT yourself, or simply that RMT will be ensuring that it will be part of the agreement? Asking as I can't simply contact my old reps.

We were just told that RMT would raise on your behalf and the company would accept such claims. It is a potential minefield, and rather poor form of RMT to just wash hands and say they won't help someone who was paying subs at the time of the dispute.

I would go through HR first and foremost as that's the simplest route

 

[GalaxyDog]

I was thinking HR myself, thank you for getting back to me.

 

[Danzrobyn]

Hello everyone.

Could anyone offer advice as how I stand in getting “back pay” I left Northern Rail 23rd September’23 and was told I’d get back pay if deal is reached in which today it has, it appears they are now back peddling on this and refusing to pay? (Reaffirms my decision on leaving the shower of s***e lol)

Thanks in advance xx

 

[Chat Moss]

Hello everyone.

Could anyone offer advice as how I stand in getting “back pay” I left Northern Rail 23rd September’23 and was told I’d get back pay if deal is reached in which today it has, it appears they are now back peddling on this and refusing to pay? (Reaffirms my decision on leaving the shower of s***e lol)

Thanks in advance xx

I'm in the same position. I left to join TPE in June and Northern have told me I am not entitled to it. I was hoping the union would step in but they said they didn't agree with the decision but there is nothing they can do. I have no idea what I pay my subs for.

 

[Arty Morgan]

Hello everyone.

Could anyone offer advice as how I stand in getting “back pay” I left Northern Rail 23rd September’23 and was told I’d get back pay if deal is reached in which today it has, it appears they are now back peddling on this and refusing to pay? (Reaffirms my decision on leaving the shower of s***e lol)

Thanks in advance xx

Same position as you. I wonder how many people are in this trap? I support the earlier comment that we took part in the fight to secure the deal. Now they have agreed what the rate should have been for the job how can we be paid less than a colleague?

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Slightly related and worth a read for anyone considering claiming back pay

 

[Rodney]

I'm having similar results to most in this thread when trying to get backpay from my previous TOC. They said "backpay is only payable to employees in employment at the date of this agreement".

RMT were not very helpful as I'm no longer a member, so I'll probably have to try my current union to see if they can offer any help.

I lost many days of pay on the picket lines, so it would be nice to get somewhere with this

 

[GalaxyDog]

I've just had an email back from my TOC declining the same, claiming that
"As you were not employed by (the empire) at the date the agreement was reached, you are not eligible to receive payment relating to this matter. I appreciate this may be disappointing news and we have kept a record of your enquiry."

Somewhat miffed as a)I'm still an RMT member and b)when we've got drivers here claiming Aslef have reassured all people thinking about leaving/retiring that theyll get backpay even if they leave before any agreement reached, either Aslef are being optimistic, or its going to be one rule...

 

[GalaxyDog]

Has anyone any further news on this? RMT are now looking to take this up and going down the legal advice route. I ssupect if several people start the same, especially against the likes of certain TOCS, this could become a class action?