Penalty appeal advice

[Moon22]

Hi,

I made the mistake of getting on a train without a ticket recently and have been issued a penalty. Is there any point in appealing it and it being successful?

I have not travelled via a train in years just because I drive more nor do I get out much for an evening meal out after becoming a mum. When I used trains when I was younger I would just get tickets on the train or at Leeds station without an issue. I genuinely had absolutely no idea all the rules had changed.

After dropping my daughter off at my mums, I got on a train at New Pudsey train station to Leeds. I was running late, the train was approaching the platform so I just got on hoping to get a ticket from the conductor or at the station like I used to. It was rush hour so the train was packed and I didn't see a conductor. (which I now know would most likely have given me a penalty anyway!)

Once I got to the station I went straight to the ticket office but someone was in front of me. A member of staff stood by a platform approached me. I said I need to buy a ticket and he called a guy over. This member of staff didn't listen to anything I had to say, nor did he properly explain what was going on and just wanted my information. I'm honestly so gutted this has happened as I would never have intentionally tried getting into Leeds without paying for a train ticket. I was happy to pay for a ticket, just didn't realise eveything has changed and I needed to get the ticket before boarding. Any advice?

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

We could do with knowing a bit more detail about your case. What exactly were you given at Leeds - was it a Penalty Fare? This is £100 plus the applicable fare or £50 plus the fare if paid within 21 days, or was it something else?

Unfortunately it is a criminal offence to board a train without a ticket so on the face of it it would seem that issuing a Penalty Fare is correct. A Penalty Fare is not a fine but is an exceptional fare charged where a passenger is unable to present a valid ticket. There are some circumstances were a Penalty Fare should not be valid, the main one being if there are no ticketing issuing facilities (ie open ticket office or ticket vending machine) at your starting station. I'm not familiar with New Pudsey but I assume there is a ticket machine there. The other thing worth checking is the signage at New Pudsey because for a Penalty Fare to be valid there has to be signage that uses a very specific form of words. We've seen cases recently where the signage has been deficient and consequently a Penalty Fare has been cancelled.

There was a case of deficient signage recently at Tottenham Hale station which ended up with a Penalty Fare being cancelled:

Stansted Airport fines

As suggested, I am starting a separate thread to seek advice re the fine I received on Friday/the broader issue of fines for using contactless payment in error at Stansted train station. I changed from the underground to NR at Tottenham Hale and was charged the full single fare (£21.40) plus a...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[John R]

And to steer the OP to the relevant point in that thread, it's the wording below for which many notices appear to be incorrect, in that they add some wording about the amount of the penalty fare, which is not in line with the the wording required in the regulations which I've underlined below.

(c)the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”; As you noted, this wording has not been faithfully reproduced; "be charged" has been changed to "have to pay". They've also added on "of at least £100", which is not really accurate given the potential reduction to £50.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

I made the mistake of getting on a train without a ticket recently and have been issued a penalty. Is there any point in appealing it and it being successful?

I have not travelled via a train in years just because I drive more nor do I get out much for an evening meal out after becoming a mum. When I used trains when I was younger I would just get tickets on the train or at Leeds station without an issue. I genuinely had absolutely no idea all the rules had changed.

After dropping my daughter off at my mums, I got on a train at New Pudsey train station to Leeds. I was running late, the train was approaching the platform so I just got on hoping to get a ticket from the conductor or at the station like I used to. It was rush hour so the train was packed and I didn't see a conductor. (which I now know would most likely have given me a penalty anyway!)

Once I got to the station I went straight to the ticket office but someone was in front of me. A member of staff stood by a platform approached me. I said I need to buy a ticket and he called a guy over. This member of staff didn't listen to anything I had to say, nor did he properly explain what was going on and just wanted my information. I'm honestly so gutted this has happened as I would never have intentionally tried getting into Leeds without paying for a train ticket. I was happy to pay for a ticket, just didn't realise eveything has changed and I needed to get the ticket before boarding. Any advice?

Welcome

It's a while since we've seen any of the 'honest passenger goes to try and pay the fare they owe at Leeds desk ends up with penalty fare - PF - (or worse)' but no doubt it's been happening at a steady rate. Sorry to read it's happened to you.

But yes, govt wants to phase out buying on board as much as poss for various reasons (not least their desire to get rid of gaurds / on board staff / turn the railway into a hostile customer environment - in my view).

But sadly, if there was a facility to buy a ticket before boarding (so not necessarily on line or your phone etc) it's a criminal offence to do what you did - so in theory you could end up with worse than a PF - they could prosecute you. The PF is an option for the 'honest mistake' in many respects - but it won't feel like that to you.

So - to get to your question - is it worth appealing

well - not on the basis you have given
BUT
it can be for other reasons

- if the warning signage where you boarded was not complaint with the regs would be grounds for appeal (but you will need expert advice from here on what non compliant signage might be).
- I believe if you appeal it stops the train company deciding to prosecute you (so that alone seems worth doing to me)
- The clock is stopped on the prompt payment PF discount whilst you appeal

There may be other reasons that others can add.

That has to be set against the time it will take you to appeal

BTW - the gaurd may well not have given you a PF - only staff authorised to issue them can do that and some / many guards are not IIRC. But if you did not make an effort to find them and offer to buy a ticket you missed a chance there.

SO - there can be some benefits from appealing - but I don't think that an appeal based on the argument that you did not get to the station early enough to use one of Northern's fairly slow and complex to work out how to use ticket machines before you boarded would be upheld.

Sorry about this but hope it helps you weigh things up

Hopefully others will post with thoughts to help you decide what to do.

(if you travel by trains and are delayed don't forget to claim Delay - Repay - some way of offsetting your PF costs perhaps)

EDIT - I see others have now posted useful info before I did.

 

[Ben Rhydding]

New Pudsey ticket office is open 06.00 to 19.00 Mon to Sat, closed all day Sunday. There are three ticket machines but two are within the station building so there is only one accessible when the ticket office is closed. It is by no means unknown for the office to be closed due to staff shortage and/ or for the one outside ticket machine not to work.

One regularly sees, from a safe distance, RPIs hovering around the excess fare window at Leeds ready to pounce on passengers attempting to buy tickets there. How many of these passengers are availing of their first opportunity to purchase a ticket, I do not know. Having heard stories of them refusing evidence of no previous opportunity to buy a ticket, I give them a wide berth. If I encounter a ticket machine not working, I photograph it and, if at all possible, purchase the required ticket on my phone.

None of which helps the OP unless he/ she can furnish additional evidence

 

[fandroid]

If you were given a proper Penalty Fare, then you would have been given a slip of paper saying that. Please put up a photo of whatever paperwork you were given, covering any identifying details such as a reference number and/or name.

Once we've seen that we can ensure that we're giving relevant advice.