Penalty charge notice sent to wrong address

[zillarino]

Hey there,

I’m asking on behalf of my partners dad who got himself into a bit of a situation over an outdated rail card..

He had been travelling from Teignmouth to Taunton on a rail card which he didn’t realise was actually two weeks out of date.

He was told by the ticket inspector that it was out of date and he needed to pay the amount he’d saved with the railcard, a small amount around £3.

He refused to pay it out of principal and the conductor took his name and said he’d be sent a fine when they found his details.

He never received a Penalty Charge to his address, however he did end up with a court summons which he then found out they’d sent the penalty charge to an incorrect address he’d never lived at.

Now obviously the best thing in this situation would have been to pay the small fine when on the train but he didn’t and he’s now in this situation and I’m trying to see if my thinking around it is correct before seeking legal advice.

* He’s not contesting the fine or the penalty charge notice as he didn’t pay it so isn’t expecting to have no fine.
* As the notice was never sent to him, does he have grounds to settle out of court on the original penalty charge amount as he was unaware of it until the court summons?

Thanks in advance,

 

[scrapy]

Firstly the sum he was asked to pay on the train was an excess not a fine, the difference between the amount paid for his ticket and the amount he should have paid. The terms of the railcard do state he should have been charged for a new ticket although it appears that the guard/train operators (TOC) policy was more lenient.

On refusing to pay I don't think he would be elligable for a penalty fare. You say his name was taken. Presumably this is because it was on the railcard. Was he asked to provide his address? Is so refusal, or giving false details is an offence.

There is no entitlement to a penalty fare and they are not normally issued by post. The circumstances described where someone has refused to pay would not normally be circumstances where a penalty fare would be issued. How does he know that one has been issued to a different address?

It sounds like as he refused to pay (I'm not sure what principle on, as its his responsibility to ensure the railcard is in date) so the TOC has begun court proceedings. Even if a penalty fare (or more likely an out of court settlement offer which the TOC is under no obligation to offer) has been sent to another address I don't believe it diminishes the TOCs right to prosecute.

His best course of action now would be to contact the TOC and ask them if they would consider an out of court settlement. He should be aware that this is likely to be in the low hundreds of pounds rather than the £3 originally asked for or a £20 penalty as the TOC will have incurred costs bringing the matter to court. It would also be useful to know whether he is being prosecuted under railway byelaws or the regulation of the railways act. The latter is generally more punitive if found guilty.

 

[Snow1964]

It appears unfortunate the penalty charge went astray, as the correct address must have been available as it has been used on Court summons. But fairly irrelevant as he had already refused to pay the extra.

Probably best to agree to pay before Court, thus not getting court fees added to the bill. It’s already going to be a lot more than the £3 he refused to pay, and at each stage will get more fees added.

Not sure what his basis for refusing was. It was his responsibility to check the validity of railcard before choosing a discounted ticket.

The only way I could see a magistrate taking his side was if he presented his railcard at a manned ticket office, and rather than pointing out it had expired he was sold a discounted ticket in error. A valid defence for occasional traveller that wouldn’t know they had been charged wrong amount, but not for a railcard holder that presumably makes more regular journeys. However if he used a machine or internet etc then 100% his responsibility to check he was still eligible for the discount.

 

[221129]

It appears unfortunate the penalty charge went astray, as the correct address must have been available as it has been used on Court summons. But fairly irrelevant as he had already refused to pay the extra.

Probably best to agree to pay before Court, thus not getting court fees added to the bill. It’s already going to be a lot more than the £3 he refused to pay, and at each stage will get more fees added.

Not sure what his basis for refusing was. It was his responsibility to check the validity of railcard before choosing a discounted ticket.

The only way I could see a magistrate taking his side was if he presented his railcard at a manned ticket office, and rather than pointing out it had expired he was sold a discounted ticket in error. A valid defence for occasional traveller that wouldn’t know they had been charged wrong amount, but not for a railcard holder that presumably makes more regular journeys. However if he used a machine or internet etc then 100% his responsibility to check he was still eligible for the discount.

That still isnt a defence that can be used in court.

 

[Puffing Devil]

It appears unfortunate the penalty charge went astray, as the correct address must have been available as it has been used on Court summons. But fairly irrelevant as he had already refused to pay the extra.

The TOC could have traced the defendant when the notice went unpaid, especially as:

He never received a Penalty Charge to his address, however he did end up with a court summons which he then found out they’d sent the penalty charge to an incorrect address he’d never lived at.

There are two possible ways that this could have happened:

• The guard made a mistake taking down the address or it was miskeyed when it entered the computer system
• An already unhappy passenger gave a false address when asked for payment.

I know where my money would be going if I were a betting man.

Advice
Contact the TOC, see if they will settle out of court. This is a slam dunk case for them irrespective of any missing penalty notice as they could have gone straight to court after the very generous offer to excess the fare on the train was rejected.

 

[jumble]

Hey there,

I’m asking on behalf of my partners dad who got himself into a bit of a situation over an outdated rail card..

He had been travelling from Teignmouth to Taunton on a rail card which he didn’t realise was actually two weeks out of date.

He was told by the ticket inspector that it was out of date and he needed to pay the amount he’d saved with the railcard, a small amount around £3.

He refused to pay it out of principal and the conductor took his name and said he’d be sent a fine when they found his details.

He never received a Penalty Charge to his address, however he did end up with a court summons which he then found out they’d sent the penalty charge to an incorrect address he’d never lived at.

Now obviously the best thing in this situation would have been to pay the small fine when on the train but he didn’t and he’s now in this situation and I’m trying to see if my thinking around it is correct before seeking legal advice.

* He’s not contesting the fine or the penalty charge notice as he didn’t pay it so isn’t expecting to have no fine.
* As the notice was never sent to him, does he have grounds to settle out of court on the original penalty charge amount as he was unaware of it until the court summons?

Thanks in advance,

To be honest I struggle to understand why your Partner's dad considered it acceptable to refuse to pay "on principle" as he was caught using a discount that he was not entitled to use
If I were a prosecutor I would make sure this went to court with no late settlement "on principle" as i would think it unlikely that lessons would be learned if leniency was shown

 

[gray1404]

My take on this is for the gentlemen concerned to contact GWR as a matter of urgency and ask if it is possible to reach an out of court settlement. I have head of this being possible over the phone with First Group train operators. If this is not possible, get to court early on the day and ask the person acting on behalf of GWR the same - if an out of court settlement can be agreed - before the case is called.

The gentleman concerned needs to loose their attitude. The member of staff they spoke to on the day was very reasonable on their approach.

I don't know the railcard type concerned here but I have seen customers argue on board when found without a valid senior railcard on the basis they shouldn't need a railcard as they're a pensioner or have paid their taxes all their life. I've also heard rude responses to staff when asking customers to show this type of railcard. I suspect this is a regular issue.

It would be useful if the OP could respond stating exactly what charges have been laid before the court.

I notice a lot of posts in this forum where passengers claim: "The inspector said I'd be sent a penalty in the post." etc... I think train companies might benefit by having a standard wording that should be used when details are taken. Something like: "The train company will contact you by post within the next [12] weeks to inform you of their intentions." or something similar.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In case it's not clear, can I emphasize that your partner's dad is not in a strong position: the railway is not obliged to offer a chance to settle out of court. It certainly won't do any harm to ask for a settlement - but it is a matter of asking, rather than demanding. So there's a strong incentive for your partner's father to be as polite as possible, and not stand on any matter of principle.

 

[najaB]

He refused to pay it out of principal and the conductor took his name and said he’d be sent a fine when they found his details.

What principle? That he should have been allowed a discount that he was no longer entitled to because... reasons?

* He’s not contesting the fine or the penalty charge notice as he didn’t pay it so isn’t expecting to have no fine.

At the very least the original fare plus reasonable costs are now due.

 

[ninhog]

It’s worth reminding people that the OP is posting on behalf of their partner’s father, so asking why he refused to pay the excess on principle is moot.

The OP has stated the situation and simply wants advice on how to proceed, which has been given and reaffirmed by several members.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Hey there,

I’m asking on behalf of my partners dad who got himself into a bit of a situation over an outdated rail card..

He had been travelling from Teignmouth to Taunton on a rail card which he didn’t realise was actually two weeks out of date.

He was told by the ticket inspector that it was out of date and he needed to pay the amount he’d saved with the railcard, a small amount around £3.

He refused to pay it out of principal and the conductor took his name and said he’d be sent a fine when they found his details.

He never received a Penalty Charge to his address, however he did end up with a court summons which he then found out they’d sent the penalty charge to an incorrect address he’d never lived at.

Now obviously the best thing in this situation would have been to pay the small fine when on the train but he didn’t and he’s now in this situation and I’m trying to see if my thinking around it is correct before seeking legal advice.

* He’s not contesting the fine or the penalty charge notice as he didn’t pay it so isn’t expecting to have no fine.
* As the notice was never sent to him, does he have grounds to settle out of court on the original penalty charge amount as he was unaware of it until the court summons?

Thanks in advance,

The ticket inspector was wrong. A penalty fare won't be issued by post but an invoice for costs and the correct fare (or excess fare) might be.