Penalty fare disability. OCD

[jamesthebeast]

Hello everyone,

I was wondering if anyone would be able to help me.

Three times a week I travel from Daisy Hill to work in Manchester Victoria.

Unfortunately, I am disabled, I have diagnosed autism, anxiety, OCD, epilepsy and molysomophobia (fear of dirt). Because of this I am entitled to a disabled railcard.

I used to buy my train tickets at the ticket office using contactless. However lately the ticket office has been shut (so I have had to buy on board as I am unable to use the ticket machine as I have a worry it may be dirty).

Due to my OCD when I get the train I am constantly worried about getting a penalty fare as I have to buy on board due to the announcements that play frequently. I spoke to my psychiatrist about this and they wrote a letter explaining that I was entitled to buy on board, stated this was a reasonable adjustment and entered their contact details on for if there were any issues.
This calmed my nerves a lot and I continued to use the train 3 times a week.

Unfortunately yesterday I boarded the train and the ticket inspector came over to me and asked for my ticket, I pulled out my disabled railcard and asked for a return to Victoria and asked to pay with contact less. The ticket inspector told me I would be unable to buy a ticket and would need a penalty fare. I said don't worry and pulled out my note and showed it to the ticket inspector. The ticket inspector snatched it out of my hand and told me my note was a load of rubish and I could just man up and buy before I board like anyone else. The ticket inspector then told me they would call the British Transport Police and I would be arrested, so I provided my details and Received a penalty fare. They also confiscated my disabled railcard telling me I didn't need it.

I exited the station at Manchester and burst into tears, unfortunately I had a complete meltdown and was unable to go to work, in the end of the British Transport Police came over to comfort me. I Spoke to them for around 30 minutes and they encouraged me to take the day off of work and return home. I was unable to return home as I didn't have a train ticket. Every morning I transfer exactly enough money for my train ticket into my current account as I have a fear of money in my account going missing, without my railcard I would be unable to afford my return trip so the British Transport Police spoke to the train conductor who allowed me to travel back free of charge.

I am now really scared that something bad is going to happen to me because I got a penalty fare, I don't feel it was justified as I planned for this to happen and got a letter from a medical doctor allowing me to buy my tickets on board when the ticket lffice is closed. I also lost my dosabled railcard and my letter which I had to pay £80 for.

I spoke to my dad about the issue who took the penalty fare off of me and encouraged me to make a complaint. Unfortunately when I rang Northern Rail they told me they were unable to look at fare evasion complaints, even though I am not a fare evader.

My questions are:

1) am I in big trouble, did I do anything wrong?

2) how do I get another disabled railcard, do I have to buy another?

3) can I get another letter from my psychiatrist? I was under the impression that my letter allowed me to buy on board if the ticket office was shut.

4) am I banned from Northern services?

5) how do I repay the British Transport Police for allowing me to travel home for free? Did the officer have to pay for me to go home? It looked like he just spoke to the train guard but he could have paid him when I wasn't looking.

6) will this impact my job? I am an R programming data scientist and have to travel into Manchester 3 times a week.

7) how will i travel in on the next days?

8) do you think I would be able to appeal the penalty fare?

9) Was it not true I was able to buy on board with a letter from a medical doctor explaining my disability. It feels like they should have made reasonable adjustments?

10) what should I do now?

Sorry I know this is a long post. But the whole thing has upset me greatly and caused me to have a meltdown. I also lost a days pay due to Northern rails actions. Some help would be appreciated.

Many thanks everyone.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would recommend that you consider getting a smartphone and buying e-tickets in future. That way you have complete control over the cleanliness of the device used to purchase your tickets.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I would recommend that you consider getting a smartphone and buying e-tickets in future. That way you have complete control over the cleanliness of the device used to purchase your tickets.

I’d agree with that. Whilst buying online is not a requirement if you cannot buy at the station, (ie you are permitted to buy on board), in this instance it seems like a pragmatic and sensible solution. Just make sure you have completed the purchase before you step on board though, to avoid any other issues. In the short term you will have to buy tickets without a railcard discount - make sure you keep a running total of the extra costs of these, so you can claim them back.

I don’t believe the inspector was entitled to take your letter away, and this could be regarded as theft? It cost you £80. You should notify Customer Services that you unless it is returned within 2 days you will make arrangements to get a second letter and will expect to be reimbursed for the cost of it.

I suspect this might be a case where your MP could be of assistance.

 

[jamesthebeast]

I would recommend that you consider getting a smartphone and buying e-tickets in future. That way you have complete control over the cleanliness of the device used to purchase your tickets.

Hi, thanks for the fast response. I do have a smart phone - i went through a period of using it to purchase tickets however the signal is flakey by the station - I opted to stop using this method completely as I didn't want to be unable to purchase a tixket before boarding.

I’d agree with that. Whilst buying online is not a requirement if you cannot buy at the station, (ie you are permitted to buy on board), in this instance it seems like a pragmatic and sensible solution. Just make sure you have completed the purchase before you step on board though, to avoid any other issues. In the short term you will have to buy tickets without a railcard discount - make sure you keep a running total of the extra costs of these, so you can claim them back.

I don’t believe the inspector was entitled to take your letter away, and this could be regarded as theft? It cost you £80. You should notify Customer Services that you unless it is returned within 2 days you will make arrangements to get a second letter and will expect to be reimbursed for the cost of it.

I suspect this might be a case where your MP could be of assistance.

Hello,


How can I do this when chstomer service won't take the complaint? Also thank you for the fast response.

 

[Haywain]

I find it incredible that any member of staff considered it appropriate to confiscate a Disabled Railcard (assuming it was in date) as well as the letter, and that should be the subject of a written complaint to the train company.

 

[Brissle Girl]

Hi, thanks for the fast response. I do have a smart phone - i went through a period of using it to purchase tickets however the signal is flakey by the station - I opted to stop using this method completely as I didn't want to be unable to purchase a tixket before boarding.


Hello,


How can I do this when chstomer service won't take the complaint? Also thank you for the fast response.

Can you purchase the ticket before leaving home using your wi-fi?

Re Customer Services, regardless of the “fare evasion” point, they took some of your property and you want it back. Write to them by email using their contact details and set it out clearly.

 

[jamesthebeast]

Also to people asking sbout e tickets. I feel uneasy using an e ticket. Ad there is a chance my phone could break and I could be issued a penalty fare.

 

[Pushpit]

1) am I in big trouble, did I do anything wrong?

10) what should I do now?

This must have been a really distressing event for you, it was unprofessional, insensitive and unethical for the RPI to have done what he did. I want to express my sorrow about this, and I'm pleased that your dad was around to help pick up the pieces. Try not to let this get to you, but focus your upset on getting yourself to a better place. Your GP, psychiatrist and those who know you best can give you advice - I am sure you will listen to them but also follow your own instincts.

1) It's not serious - well it was for you but for Northern this is small fry unless you were openly trying to defraud the railway on an industrial scale, which you were not. But it may explain why you may struggle to get Northern to take it that seriously, and you're probably used to choosing which battles to fight. You aren't banned from the trains (4) and your job is safe (6). Don't worry about the BTP (5), you pay them via your taxes, they - to their credit - did their job. By all means write or email BTP to thank the officer concerned, they don't get many thank-yous.

out of sequence...

3 and 7 and 9) Unfortunately it's not enough to have a letter from anyone in clinical life to ensure reasonable adjustments, though it's worth the try and hopefully your psychiatrist can replace the letter if necessary. But fundamentally the law says you need a ticket before boarding and not much can change that. You need to consider ways and means to work around that, fortunately there are many such ways and you may need a bit of help from friends and family in this area. Whatever you decide upon, by all means check back here to see if the hivemind can come up with relevant comments. But e-tickets are perfectly sensible and would have saved you a lot of trouble yesterday, you can print them out too.

2 and 8 and 10) Right, you need to get on to Northern about the disgraceful way you were treated. Write to the Managing Director, and respond to any letters you may get about this (you may not if a penalty fare has been paid). Be prepared to forward any reply to your MP. Consider liaising with any charities that work in this area since they will have a network of contacts, perhaps in the rail sector. You may need to apply for a replacement railcard, I don't see why that was taken (stolen?) by the RPI, but keep receipts, I would hope that any extra costs can be dealt with.

Q to others: does anyone know if Northern has some liaison group for those with disabilities.

Again I'm sorry about this, but one aspect of getting over events like this is to share it with others, which you have done, so that's a positive first step. There will be other steps, you can get yourself into a better place on this. You have every right to use the railway, such as you are, not how others may want you to be.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you are concerned that your phone might break (though I am not sure why), you could maybe print the ticket at home beforehand?

 

[Wolfie]

I’d agree with that. Whilst buying online is not a requirement if you cannot buy at the station, (ie you are permitted to buy on board), in this instance it seems like a pragmatic and sensible solution. Just make sure you have completed the purchase before you step on board though, to avoid any other issues. In the short term you will have to buy tickets without a railcard discount - make sure you keep a running total of the extra costs of these, so you can claim them back.

I don’t believe the inspector was entitled to take your letter away, and this could be regarded as theft? It cost you £80. You should notify Customer Services that you unless it is returned within 2 days you will make arrangements to get a second letter and will expect to be reimbursed for the cost of it.

I suspect this might be a case where your MP could be of assistance.

Why does this smack of Carlisle rent-a-goon at their "finest"? If so l would suggest contacting the SIA with a view to having their security licence removed.

I am sure that the media would be all over this story - about as non-disabled friendly as it is possible to be - as would any politician keen to get reelected. Hopefully you got the name of the BTP officer who you dealt with who can confirm your story.

Perhaps the MD of Northern might get off their fat complacent ass and make changes if their own life is made miserable!

 

[Cloud Strife]

I'd recommend getting in touch with this guy: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/matt-wilson-27672020

He says on his own LinkedIn that he is "proudly neurodivergent" and he's the responsible person at Northern Rail for accessible travel issues.

 

[SteveM70]

Is it worth making a subject access request to Northern asap in the hope that any on train cctv that shows the OP’s interaction with Northern staff can be preserved? Obviously no sound, but it would possibly corroborate the OP’s statement that his doc’s letter was taken from him without his agreement

 

[ikcdab]

Also to people asking sbout e tickets. I feel uneasy using an e ticket. Ad there is a chance my phone could break and I could be issued a penalty fare.

There is virtually nil chance that your phone could break. There is a greater chance that you lose a hard copy ticket.
There is a chance that the phone signal might fail and you can't display the ticket. I always do a screenshot which is held on the phone, but I have read that screenshots are not allowed in the same way you wouldn't allow a photocopy of a hard copy ticket. Can anyone clarify? It seems to me so critical that ticket apps must have a way round this.
Also you would need to keep your phone charged. I always carry a power bank with me for that.
I hope this gets resolved, the behaviour you recount seems extraordinary in the extreme.

 

[dosxuk]

The ticket inspector then told me they would call the British Transport Police and I would be arrested, so I provided my details and Received a penalty fare.

I think in this case, you might have been better to let him call the BTP. Based on what you have said they are far more likely to have sided with you and told the RPI to leave you alone than arresting you, but I realise that you may not have wanted to pursue this avenue.

You absolutely need to complain about the way you were treated. If I was in your position I would be wanting an apology from the MD's office, along with the return of your property, the railcard and compensation for the distress and inconvenience.

I have read that screenshots are not allowed in the same way you wouldn't allow a photocopy of a hard copy ticket.

Screenshots are not allowed of M-Tickets. Screenshots are allowed of E-Tickets when the barcode can be clearly read.

 

[Pushpit]

I'd recommend getting in touch with this guy: https://uk.linkedin.com/in/matt-wilson-27672020

He says on his own LinkedIn that he is "proudly neurodivergent" and he's the responsible person at Northern Rail for accessible travel issues.

Well spotted!

Here is his Twitter account:

https://twitter.com/Matt_the_Yorkie/with_replies

James, you can send direct messages to Twitter users, but you may know how to do that already. If not, let us know!

 

[AlterEgo]

3 and 7 and 9) Unfortunately it's not enough to have a letter from anyone in clinical life to ensure reasonable adjustments, though it's worth the try and hopefully your psychiatrist can replace the letter if necessary. But fundamentally the law says you need a ticket before boarding and not much can change that.

No! Disabled Railcard holders are entitled to purchase on board with no penalty as per the Terms and Conditions:

2.7. You must buy the Tickets before boarding the train unless:

2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.

The passenger is not actually bound to provide evidence of the nature of their disability to on train staff, but the OP did anyway, and went above and beyond what was required of them. Their letter was stolen, and their Railcard unjustly retained by staff.

 

[jamiearmley]

Just to add, Northern do issue official letters for passengers to carry to allow purchase of tickets on board the train, for situations such as this. I've been shown them multiple times over the last few years, since buy before you board became more of a thing.
Perhaps when you contact Northern, ask them for such a letter. I don't believe there is a charge.

On a personal level, I hope you manage to get this sorted out. The events - as you explain them - describe an unacceptable way to treat people.

 

[AlterEgo]

There is virtually nil chance that your phone could break. There is a greater chance that you lose a hard copy ticket.
There is a chance that the phone signal might fail and you can't display the ticket. I always do a screenshot which is held on the phone, but I have read that screenshots are not allowed in the same way you wouldn't allow a photocopy of a hard copy ticket. Can anyone clarify?

Screenshots of the whole ticket, front and back, are fine. Mainly the concern is the QR code being able to be read.

 

[ikcdab]

Screenshots of the whole ticket, front and back, are fine. Mainly the concern is the QR code being able to be read.

Actually I have just looked at one, south western, and they say screenshots are NOT ok

eTickets | Digital Train Tickets | South Western Railway

Are you ready to go paperless? Learn all about what digital eTickets are, how you can use them, the type of tickets you can buy, and the ways you can book here.

www.southwesternrailway.com

 

[dosxuk]

Actually I have just looked at one, south western, and they say screenshots are NOT ok

I think that can be filed in the same category as Merseyrail's "all tickets must be printed out" as they also say they accept the PDF versions of E-Tickets which are effectively a screenshot.

 

[AlterEgo]

Actually I have just looked at one, south western, and they say screenshots are NOT ok

eTickets | Digital Train Tickets | South Western Railway

Are you ready to go paperless? Learn all about what digital eTickets are, how you can use them, the type of tickets you can buy, and the ways you can book here.

www.southwesternrailway.com

Bzzk! Afraid you have made the rookie mistake of trusting the railway not to be utterly and laughably incompetent.

This came up before in a thread and it turns our SWR have the term for m-tickets there, not e-tickets. https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-ticket-delivery-methods.264562/#post-6687929 As long as all the information is there and the QR code can be read it's fine.

Screenshots of e-tickets are fine. You can screenshot the PDF, or, if you can, the wallet/passbook pass, as this is usually clearer. There are no "moving security features" on e-tickets as there are on m-tickets, which require activation.

TrainSplit and many other sites will give you a wallet/passbook pass for your phone which doesn't require the internet to work.

 

[fandroid]

Can I suggest that the OP starts by appealing the Penalty Fare? As the incident was very recent there's plenty of time for us to help draft the appeal. It won't deal with the general issue of appalling behaviour by the RPI but it will start to flag it up.

If the OP can post a copy of the Penalty Fare notice itself, that will help us.

 

[WesternLancer]

Obviously some good advice given above and I can see that regular Forum users are taken aback (to put it mildly) by the way you have been treated @jamesthebeast.

There are clearly various things that need following up - I think they are

A) submit an Appeal to the Penalty Fare within the required timescale according to the instructions on the Penalty Fare document - do not send the Appeal to Northern but of course submit it as per the instructions. It is important that you get any Appeal 'in the system'. The basis of the Appeal would be as @AlterEgo states in post #16. Make this appeal brief but clear - post your wording draft up here if you would like to do so so that Forum members can help get the wording right. You could include the wording along these line in the Appeal 'I had supporting documentation about my disability issued by a medical professional that I showed the member of staff on the train, but the member of staff confiscated this along with my Disabled Persons Railcard so I am unable to attach them to this Appeal. This is the subject of a separate complaint to Northern Trains.'

B) Submit a formal complaint to Northern about how you were treated, requesting the prompt return of your Disabled Persons Railcard and medical documentation and that they will re-imburse the additional costs of any fares you now have to buy as you do not have access to your Disabled Person Railcard until they return it. Again post a draft here if you want help with getting the wording as effective as possible

Do all of this in writing. Do not waste time ringing Norther customer services etc

Also then send a copy of the above complaint to your MP, as the MP to consider your circumstances and request that they take the matter up with Northern Trains at a senior level because of the issues raised and the manner in which you were dealt with by their staff.

Make it clear at all times that it was due to the nature of your disability that meant you were unable to use the ticket vending machine at the station where you boarded, and hence your need to be able to buy on board the train, as you are entitled to do as disabled person.

Hopefully you will be able to weigh up the advice on here and take forward things in the next few days, but as I say, feel free to post up drafts of what you want to send so people can help get them as effective as possible.

 

[skyhigh]

Why does this smack of Carlisle rent-a-goon at their "finest"? If so l would suggest contacting the SIA with a view to having their security licence removed.

Carlisle do not provide any on-train staff. They are all directly employed by Northern.

 

[jamesthebeast]

Thanks for the help so far everyone

 

[Wolfie]

Carlisle do not provide any on-train staff. They are all directly employed by Northern.

Ah, ok. TY

 

[island]

I would recommend that you consider getting a smartphone and buying e-tickets in future. That way you have complete control over the cleanliness of the device used to purchase your tickets.

I would agree with this recommendation.

Why does this smack of Carlisle rent-a-goon at their "finest"? If so l would suggest contacting the SIA with a view to having their security licence removed.

It isn’t. The OP was spoken to by on-train staff. Carlisle staff only work in stations.

Screenshots of the whole ticket, front and back, are fine. Mainly the concern is the QR code being able to be read.

It’s not a QR code But yes, the Aztec code needs to be readable.

 

[Pushpit]

No! Disabled Railcard holders are entitled to purchase on board with no penalty as per the Terms and Conditions:

2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.


The passenger is not actually bound to provide evidence of the nature of their disability to on train staff, but the OP did anyway, and went above and beyond what was required of them. Their letter was stolen, and their Railcard unjustly retained by staff.

I've had a bit of a think about this, and apologies to the Mods if this is off topic, and to note that fundamentally I agree with you. However let us look at this from two perspectives
a) The OP - who has selflessly self described themselves in post 1.
b) That oafish and ignorant RPI, who is exerting the power here and has a very different worldview.
The RPI doubted the OP had a disability and confiscated / stole the OP's possessions. They would further have argued, no doubt, that the OP's condition was not preventing access to the ticket machines, if you define "access" narrowly as meaning physically able to get to the machinery and potentially use it. I'm sure we would both strongly disagree with this perspective, unfortunately we won't be sat next to the OP the next time it happens.

So I'm not sure that entitlement helps, except after the event, should the OP encounter the RPI again, which is unfortunately a distinct possibility. Given point a), then relying on 2.7.2 may not be the best way forward if it is open to dispute, a smartphone or similar approach may be better. Those who have to walk with mental health issues often need tactical ways forward and luckily they exist in this case.

 

[Haywain]

There is a chance that the phone signal might fail and you can't display the ticket.

With an eTicket that would affect delivery of the ticket to the phone, so you wouldn't then be able to screenshot the ticket. Once it has been delivered to the phone, as an email attachment, it can be saved to the phone so that no signal is required to display the ticket.

 

[rs101]

I've had a bit of a think about this, and apologies to the Mods if this is off topic, and to note that fundamentally I agree with you. However let us look at this from two perspectives
a) The OP - who has selflessly self described themselves in post 1.
b) That oafish and ignorant RPI, who is exerting the power here and has a very different worldview.
The RPI doubted the OP had a disability and confiscated / stole the OP's possessions. They would further have argued, no doubt, that the OP's condition was not preventing access to the ticket machines, if you define "access" narrowly as meaning physically able to get to the machinery and potentially use it. I'm sure we would both strongly disagree with this perspective, unfortunately we won't be sat next to the OP the next time it happens.

So I'm not sure that entitlement helps, except after the event, should the OP encounter the RPI again, which is unfortunately a distinct possibility. Given point a), then relying on 2.7.2 may not be the best way forward if it is open to dispute, a smartphone or similar approach may be better. Those who have to walk with mental health issues often need tactical ways forward and luckily they exist in this case.

If a TOC or RPI defined "access" as physically able to get to the machinery and use it, then they'd be discriminating against a huge number of people with disabilities and be slam dunk wins for anyone who decided to sue them... Anyone with severe dyslexia or dyscalculia, for example, or neurodivergence. They're not physical disabilities, but can prevent the person accessing the facilities.