The ticket could also show on it the same final destination that appears on the station boards.
Doing that could be problematic if the train is part-cancelled after the station the ticket is to (and hence that train should still be the one used)
The ticket could also show on it the same final destination that appears on the station boards.
The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 state
6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
a) there were no facilities in operation for the sale of a travel ticket for that passenger’s journey;
(b) the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;
(c) a notice was displayed indicating that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket; or
(d) the operator of the train or the station, or a person acting or purporting to act on behalf of the operator, indicated that the passenger was, or persons generally were, permitted to travel by or be present on the train without having a travel ticket
(3) This paragraph applies if—
(a)the passenger has travelled on a preceding train;
(b)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the first of the preceding trains, any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; and
(c)at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger changed from any preceding train—
(i)any of sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (2) applied; or
(ii)the passenger did not have sufficient time between leaving one train and boarding the next to purchase a travel ticket
Display of Notices
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.
(3) If the station has one or more compulsory ticket areas, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 2 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a compulsory ticket area notice”) must be displayed at each entrance into a compulsory ticket area.
(4) Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train.
1.—(1) A standard notice must contain—
.....
(c )the wording “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”;
This is only an option before a first-stage appeal has been decided (or the 21-day deadline for a decision to be made has passed, whichever comes first).The danger is that the TOC will choose to simply withdraw the PF and proceed to prosecution.
This is what I (and I suspect other contributors) think of (and describe) as a 'technical' ground of appeal - and in my view it's clear that these are not easy appeals to pursue.I don't know why on this and most other similar threads many posters categorically state there are no grounds for an appeal.
Has anyone seen a notice at a station which complies with the requirements of the Penalty Fares legislation ? I know I haven't, right across the country. When I was a Leeds last week the notices did not comply. Any Penalty Fare issued for a journey from a station without compliant notices must, by definition, have been issued in contravention of the legislation and hence there are compelling grounds for appeal.
Here is what I posted on an earlier thread (emphasis mine):
This is the, seemingly ubiquitous , notice I photographed at the time
As can be seen the notice does not comply with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (as mandated in 8(2) above):
and hence a Penalty Fare must not be charged as per 6(1) above.
You need to know that in our experience ‘technical’ appeals only succeed at the third (final) stage of the appeal process - and there’s a fairly low success rate even at that point.
A solicitor who regularly posts on the forum has confirmed that this very minor difference in wording does not invalidate penalty fares, in line with the principle of de minimus non curat lex (the law does not care about trivial things).As can be seen the notice does not comply with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (as mandated in 8(2) above):
and hence a Penalty Fare must not be charged as per 6(1) above.
Hi there,So you'd bought this a few days in advance of travel; the ticketed train left from platform 10, destination Chester. The train you caught left platform 16 destination Manchester Airport?
What information sources precisely did you use that took you to the wrong platform? Something on your phone - what exactly? Information boards at the station - which exactly? where? what did they say?
(I'm imagining perhaps you only noticed one 'Manchester' possibility and the other wasn't shown because the train continued on to Chester? But what actually happened?)
Easily fixed anyway, they just need to amend the regulations to match the signs. It will be a lot quicker than replacing thousands of signs... I suppose there really must be thousands of them, because as we know they have to be easily seen at every entrance, and within stations they must be easily seen by interchanging passengers.A solicitor who regularly posts on the forum has confirmed that this very minor difference in wording does not invalidate penalty fares, in line with the principle of de minimus non curat lex (the law does not care about trivial things).
Regardless of the general discussions surrounding the suitability of sanctions surrounding advance ticketing and the rail industry’s attitude towards it, the fact remains that your penalty fare is unquestionably valid under the current legislation, unless someone has filled the paperwork in wrong (hence upload the documentation you have received, suitably redacted, so we can check and advise if this is the case).Hi there,
I looked at the station information board and saw the departure to Manchester, at 16:45, knowing my journey was also to Manchester booked a couple minutes earlier (thought the 3 minute difference was a slight delay)
I am not too experienced in train travel, so seeing a destination to Manchester at my (assumed) correct time, and hopped on! Didn't realise it would have such bad consequences!
I was about to post similar until I noticed your post. 100% agreement here. I haven’t seen any real competition on the routes I use, ever.I'd prefer the term "disfunctional" rather than competitive.
I think you're confusing how you wish the wording read with how it actually reads.A solicitor who regularly posts on the forum has confirmed that this very minor difference in wording does not invalidate penalty fares, in line with the principle of de minimus non curat lex (the law does not care about trivial things).
I think that I may have done yes, but unfortunately a quick search cannot prompt my memory. I'll try to remember to check again soon and will return with photographs if I do find anything different. I could easily be misremembering.Has anyone seen a notice at a station which complies with the requirements of the Penalty Fares legislation ?
I’m not confusing or wishing anything, merely repeating what a wiser and better qualified soul than (you and) me has stated.I think you're confusing how you wish the wording read with how it actually reads.
The wording visible to @sheff1 is potentially different in meaning because it says "have to pay a Penalty Fare of at least £100", even the amount which has to be paid of the Penalty Fare is usually under £100 if paid within 14 days, even if it's value is over that.
It's not as if using the RSID in public-facing information wasn't the idea way back when they were invented.Indeed, such a system already exists by virtue of the Retail Service ID (RSID) that is used in retail systems to identify services when issuing reservations. RSIDs just need to be made visible!
I agree with this advice.Regardless of the general discussions surrounding the suitability of sanctions surrounding advance ticketing and the rail industry’s attitude towards it, the fact remains that your penalty fare is unquestionably valid under the current legislation, unless someone has filled the paperwork in wrong (hence upload the documentation you have received, suitably redacted, so we can check and advise if this is the case).
If you can’t afford to pay the penalty fare right now, and assuming there are no otherwise valid grounds for appeal, I would submit an appeal essentially asking for clemency, telling them what you have told us. If you are extraordinarily, extraordinarily lucky, they may let you off. More (overwhelmingly) likely, they will deny it, but you will have given yourself, say, two weeks to save up some extra money. As others have noted, this has the added advantage of barring the TOC from criminally prosecuting you, and freezes the clock for the prompt payment deadline.
If it was that easily fixed this would already have happened. I would not expect such a change to the regulations to get approved by government lawyers because if the new wording appeared in the regulations at best that could be viewed as deliberately misleading and at worst deliberately false. The existing words were chosen for good reasons and it's disappointing that the train companies don't agree that they are required to use them.Easily fixed anyway, they just need to amend the regulations to match the signs. It will be a lot quicker than replacing thousands of signs...
Has the Penalty fare been correctly issued? I have seen on another discussion a veteran member has said that as the person has a ticket then the PF is incorrectly issued if it states "no ticket" when in fact one was presented. They suggested that this alone should mean a successful appeal.
Has the Penalty fare been correctly issued?