The penalty fare is due to increase to £100 on the 23rd Jan 2023. Do you think that this is will decrease fare evasion ?
A disproportionately large number of people who come to this forum are either overseas people on visas or are students (nearly all medical ones - draw your own conclusions!). I’m sure there are a few Facebook groups or forums which encourage fare evasion the TOCs should invest some time in researching!I absolutely think it will decrease fare evasion. It's a concerningly common view of students at the university I go to that the chances of getting your ticket checked if you travel at the right time is less than 50%, and so they travel ticketless and firm it if they get caught, as the net cost is less than if they bought tickets (None seem to be aware of the potential for prosecution). Most of these tickets are in the £20 range, so a minimum of £100 significantly increase the risk of the fare, and therefore makes this no longer financially justifiable.
And many more don't. The most common advice I've heard is if you see an inspector cooperate and pretend you can't find your ticket, presumably to try and pass the attitude test, and get the penalty fare. I doubt these people would even consider the forums.A disproportionately large number of people who come to this forum are either overseas people on visas or are students (nearly all medical ones - draw your own conclusions!). I’m sure there are a few Facebook groups or forums which encourage fare evasion the TOCs should invest some time in researching!
A lot of students, even wearing their college lanyards, willingly push through gates so I am not sure any are going to worry about the higher PF any more than being MGd.I absolutely think it will decrease fare evasion. It's a concerningly common view of students at the university I go to that the chances of getting your ticket checked if you travel at the right time is less than 50%, and so they travel ticketless and firm it if they get caught, as the net cost is less than if they bought tickets (None seem to be aware of the potential for prosecution). Most of these tickets are in the £20 range, so a minimum of £100 significantly increase the risk of the fare, and therefore makes this no longer financially justifiable.
Might just be the area and uni but I've never seen anyone force the barriers or even suggest it, instead the times which they are manned are well known and anyone I know that fare evades just goes when they are left open. I certainly do not know anyone that would even want to risk prosecution, something that will stay with you for life. I think that the idea that all students will just push their way through barriers, run away from enforcement staff etc is untrue, although perhaps shows the extent that fare evading goes on un noticed.A lot of students, even wearing their college lanyards, willingly push through gates so I am not sure any are going to worry about the higher PF any more than being MGd.
Think this is more of a TfL thing though, I’ve only ever seen it happen once, and unfortunately it seemed no one ever told them it wasn’t such a good idea infront of the BTP, who at Reading really do seem to enjoy a good chase.It's just that there now seem to be loads of places telling people how to avoid paying and just push through because you won't (normally) get stopped. And these people won't be put off by any level of penalty fare.
The TOCS may well be losing the money in the first instance, however given the Govts financial support for the railways then the reality is that fare evasion is costing the tax payer money.And many more don't. The most common advice I've heard is if you see an inspector cooperate and pretend you can't find your ticket, presumably to try and pass the attitude test, and get the penalty fare. I doubt these people would even consider the forums.
I've never even considered fare evasion, but over the last few years I've heard of tens of ways to evade fares on both buses and trains, some of which are entirely unenforceable. The TOCs really invest some time in trying to find them out because with how often I hear and see them they must be losing a significant amount of money.
I absolutely think it will decrease fare evasion. It's a concerningly common view of students at the university I go to that the chances of getting your ticket checked if you travel at the right time is less than 50%, and so they travel ticketless and firm it if they get caught, as the net cost is less than if they bought tickets (None seem to be aware of the potential for prosecution). Most of these tickets are in the £20 range, so a minimum of £100 significantly increase the risk of the fare, and therefore makes this no longer financially justifiable.
Paper tickets and season tickets exist, without a need to touch out. Tailgating makes for a frictionless quick exit but doesn't necessarily mean fare evasion.As a mere passenger I find the evaders so easy to spot. Approaching the Kings Cross gateline from the Met Line last month, I just knew from the hood and the swagger that the guy ahead of me was going to tailgate the person in front. As a cover he even pressed something against the reader, but his ludicrous proximity to the person in front gave the game away.
On the contrary... At the KX Met/Circle gateline, when the barriers are set to "closed" (which - being double/triple-manned - they all are, 99% of the time), everyone does need a ticket of some sort to get through; be it pushing paper into a slot or touching a card or phone. In the incident I described, the miscreant didn't simply follow at a short distance, ie even 6"; he'd pressed himself hard into the honest traveller's back to create a single entity to the gate's detectors. If it happened anywhere else, it could arguably be regarded as an assault, especially on a person of the opposite sex.Paper tickets and season tickets exist, without a need to touch out. Tailgating makes for a frictionless quick exit but doesn't necessarily mean fare evasion
Yes, this is notable.A disproportionately large number of people who come to this forum are either overseas people on visas or are students (nearly all medical ones - draw your own conclusions!).
Perhaps the university/colleges should include in their Welcome Pack a specific warning that fare evasion may be serious enough to negate their expensive education. This would be addressed to both domestic and overseas students, along with a brief description as to how Railcards work.I do find it strange that assuming they get taught about ethics as part of their courses
Commission? Who gets Commission on penalty fares? Certainly no one at the TOC i work for nor any others that I know.No, on the basis many of the revenue inspectors (i.e. sub-contractors) are not adequately trained in giving out large on-the-spot fines and are not in a position to be fair due to commission. The idea is fine but the execution by the TOCs is flawed.
Please give an example of a TOC where people get commission on Penalty Fares.No, on the basis many of the revenue inspectors (i.e. sub-contractors) are not adequately trained in giving out large on-the-spot fines and are not in a position to be fair due to commission.
Precisely. At the TOC I work for Ticket Examiners (who are PF trained) get commission on their ticket sales so actually makes it more likely to be sold a ticket if we're generalising.Please give an example of a TOC where people get commission on Penalty Fares.
You’re seriously suggesting people are tailgating rather than using their paper ticket or season? I don’t believe it, I’m afraid.Paper tickets and season tickets exist, without a need to touch out. Tailgating makes for a frictionless quick exit but doesn't necessarily mean fare evasion.
I'm sure it happens - there are many seson ticket holders who apparently regard it as a serious inconvenience to have to take their paper ticket out of the wallet it lives in.You’re seriously suggesting people are tailgating rather than using their paper ticket or season? I don’t believe it, I’m afraid.
You’re seriously suggesting people are tailgating rather than using their paper ticket or season? I don’t believe it, I’m afraid.
People openly admit it when stopped, people on some lines just hold the bank card out or have a 20 note there ready, if they travel every day they may get stopped by a guard twice a week and asked to buy a ticket and stopped by an RPI or keen Ticket Examiner perhaps once a fortnight, even then they may get sold a ticket. Its probably a chance worth taking in their eyes.Certain chancers bank on only being caught 1 in X times and know they can make the £20 difference by not paying for all the other times. So yes, I think it may make people think twice.
However, I am not sure how dramatic it will be.
We'll see! I'll let you all know in a couple of weeks!
I think that it depends an awful lot on context. The £20 minimum and any perceived issues with it have been around for a very long time since it increased from £10. Why has the Department acted now? It has been rumoured it's seen as a precursor to saving money by doing less enforcement, for example downsizing on third party revenue staff at contract end dates, or reorganising in-house roles. There's definitely a view that some operators don't need as many revenue staff as the have currently. What will actually happen is very unpredictable, though, given every DfT operator has a trade union dispute on its hands.