Penalty fare increase to £100

[Fawkes Cat]

And assaults on staff members? Do you think there will be a rise or drop in abuse and assaults?

If the consequence of an increased penalty is a reduction of the number of people fare-dodging, then unless the proportion of violent fare-dodgers increases so that there are absolutely more people prepared to thump railway workers rather than pay their fare we will also see a reduction in the number of fare-related incidents of assault. Ditto for abuse.

 

[John Luxton]

In my view the increase is a good idea as I am all for stamping out people working the system.

However, I have a slight concern over honest passengers getting a PF due to ticket office errors.

On a Sunday in April 2022 I walked into the booking office at Liverpool Lime Street and asked for a day return to Manchester Piccadilly - I was given tickets which I didn't scrutinise closely boarded the next departure which was Northern to Manchester. Returning home I arrived on the platform at Piccadilly as an EMR Liverpool train rolled. I boarded, there was no ticket check fortunately, and then alighted at Liverpool South Parkway as it was better for me to alight there on the return journey only then I noticed my ticket was endorsed Northern only

If challenged I would have been in the wrong - but not intentionally so. Yes, I should have checked the ticket, but just presumed I had been given the correct ticket. A lesson learnt and now I carefully check any ticket office ticket and specify when buying the ticket at a ticket office I want an any operator ticket if there are other operators on a route.

I just wonder how many end up with a PF due to a ticket office error?

 

[jon0844]

And assaults on staff members? Do you think there will be a rise or drop in abuse and assaults?

I haven't seen what's being said online yet (perhaps a lot of people aren't even fully aware of the changes) but I'd expect the 'advice' will be that staff can't stop you, the police will take eons to turn up if you refuse to give details, and it's as easy as ever to push through the gates. Or buy an e-ticket on your phone and get out with that (alternatively, some people take the hit on their contactless card if the station takes them).

Of course, being caught on a train is going to be different, but I expect refusing to give details will be extremely common - and then it's down to whether the police will come to assist.

Verbal assaults and threats are likely to sky rocket IMO. Hopefully most of these people won't actually assault staff, but we'll have to wait and see. BTP really must be prepared to help police this for the first six months or so, perhaps being redeployed to give staff support and backup. Do it right and it might actually deter people in the long run.

 

[Class800]

I just wonder how many end up with a PF due to a ticket office error?

This should not happen and complaint should be upheld - but sometimes things aren't handled correctly.

 

[John Luxton]

This should not happen and complaint should be upheld - but sometimes things aren't handled correctly.

The only problem is it would be very difficult if not impossible for the passenger to prove that they were given the wrong ticket in the first place.

Perhaps along with an increase in penalty fares there should be a simplification in ticketing types with common fares between operators on the same route.

 

[Class800]

The only problem is it would be very difficult if not impossible for the passenger to prove that they were given the wrong ticket in the first place.

Perhaps along with an increase in penalty fares there should be a simplification in ticketing types with common fares between operators on the same route.

I agree - but it's a situation where discretion should be used. Proof is hard in many customer services settings across industries.

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree - but it's a situation where discretion should be used. Proof is hard in many customer services settings across industries.

Most industries don’t have a subculture of people relentlessly trying it on though. The railways don’t have it easy in this regard.

 

[jon0844]

The guidance on using discretion isn't changing at all.

 

[AlterEgo]

The guidance on using discretion isn't changing at all.

Of course, but I think that poster is under the impression “showing discretion” means “letting everyone off all the time and taking everyone’s word for it unquestioningly”. Which isn’t what discretion is.

 

[Bikeman78]

It seems that the opportunity has arisen for the GWR scheme to be somewhat standardised from Monday, the new PF map shows that apart from South Wales (still ongoing) all stations that have facilities have been made PF stations. The whole Falmouth branch (except Perranwell which has no facilities), Okehampton, Barnstaple, between Exeter and Axminster and St Ives.

What happens if a passenger is unable to understand the machine or get the ticket they want? I tried to help out a pensioner who boarded at Chirk or Ruabon (I forget which) going to Euston via Chester. She couldn't work out which ticket to buy from the machine on the platform. She then tried, assisted by me, to buy a ticket from an app on her phone. We failed miserably. After a while the guard came round and sold her a ticket. I think that route is a penalty fare area. Hopefully GWR is as helpful as the TfW guard in similar circumstances.

 

[Man_with_beard]

Yes absolutely

Let's also not forget that with the higher Penalty Fare we may actually see less people reported for prosecution for more minor offences.

Thats purely me speculating but its a fair assumption.

That is if the said fare dodger is not stupid enough to give his real name and address to the inspectors seeing how easy it is these days to gave out a false name and address.

 

[RPI]

That is if the said fare dodger is not stupid enough to give his real name and address to the inspectors seeing how easy it is these days to gave out a false name and address.

Or how easy it is to actually find someone's correct details afterwards. Infact, it's embarrassingly easy to track someone down these days from the tiniest shred of information......

 

[jon0844]

That is if the said fare dodger is not stupid enough to give his real name and address to the inspectors seeing how easy it is these days to gave out a false name and address.

You must give a name, address and date of birth. This is then checked online. I am not sure how it deals with someone who isn't found. No PF pads anymore.

As everything is done online, if someone chooses to use details posted online and there are already a bunch of entries, I assume the PF becomes an MG.

 

[northken]

The change whereby, following a successful appeal, a TOC need only reimburse the penalty exceeding the full single fare applicable seems ill-thought out.

What happens if you hold a valid ticket, the inspector refuses to believe it’s valid, charges you a penalty fare and you win on appeal? They only refund the penalty aspect and you get charged twice for the journey?

Further, the new Date of Birth requirement means you now have to give your DOB in penalty fare areas, but only name & address in all other areas (as Byelaw breaches and Regulation of Railways Act 1889 do not necessitate handing DOB over).

 

[infobleep]

The change whereby, following a successful appeal, a TOC need only reimburse the penalty exceeding the full single fare applicable seems ill-thought out.

What happens if you hold a valid ticket, the inspector refuses to believe it’s valid, charges you a penalty fare and you win on appeal? They only refund the penalty aspect and you get charged twice for the journey?

You go to a newspaper and/or your MP and hope they take up the case.

 

[Watershed]

The change whereby, following a successful appeal, a TOC need only reimburse the penalty exceeding the full single fare applicable seems ill-thought out.

What happens if you hold a valid ticket, the inspector refuses to believe it’s valid, charges you a penalty fare and you win on appeal? They only refund the penalty aspect and you get charged twice for the journey?

Further, the new Date of Birth requirement means you now have to give your DOB in penalty fare areas, but only name & address in all other areas (as Byelaw breaches and Regulation of Railways Act 1889 do not necessitate handing DOB over).

Indeed. Funny how the rules keep on getting tilted more and more in the TOCs' favour, any especially without any corresponding improvement in the safeguards for passengers.

 

[thedbdiboy]

Indeed. Funny how the rules keep on getting tilted more and more in the TOCs' favour, any especially without any corresponding improvement in the safeguards for passengers.

Not quite true. TOCs had been petitioning for an increase in the Penalty Fare for some years; however, after several false starts, the result of the 2018 consultation was no change in the Penalty Fare but instead the creation of a new final stage appeals process plus removal of a lot of the 'administration charges'. The rise in Penalty Fare has now occurred because the revenue being lost belongs to Government and not the TOCs, but the passenger safeguards have been increased, it's just that part happened a few years ago.

 

[Watershed]

Not quite true. TOCs had been petitioning for an increase in the Penalty Fare for some years; however, after several false starts, the result of the 2018 consultation was no change in the Penalty Fare but instead the creation of a new final stage appeals process plus removal of a lot of the 'administration charges'. The rise in Penalty Fare has now occurred because the revenue being lost belongs to Government and not the TOCs, but the passenger safeguards have been increased, it's just that part happened a few years ago.

The appeals body for the final stage of appeal has proven itself just as ineffective as that used for previous stages, even on issues that should be their 'bread and butter', such as inadequate signage, let alone other issues such as the validity of tickets.

TOCs also continue to falsely demand made-up "admin" or "late payment" fees, and then prosecute people where the Regulations do provide one of their few safeguards, namely the bar on prosecution for passengers who appeal.

These new Regulations also directly worsen the position insofar as they purport to legitimise TOCs keeping the "full single fare" even where the passenger has successfully appealed - and even where the passenger was entitled to buy a return or Railcard discounted fare onboard, or already had a valid ticket.

So perhaps you'll foregive me if I'm a little cynical about this change.

 

[Aaron1]

In General I think I do agree with this as it should in theory reduce the chancers as the penalty is more severe, obviously there will be some people who try it on all routes.

My concern is people who wrongly try and get charged a penalty fare, just see my example what happened to me not to long ago.

The post is somewhere on disputes and prosecutions but short story below

I boarded train from unmanned station with no ticket buying facilities at all, approached conductor on board who told me not to worry about a ticket, alighted my train 3 mins later, the route I took and TOC I used means there is no penalty fare system in operation by this TOC on this route but the station I alighted at operates penalty fare system by another TOC, revenue staff of this other TOC wrongly tried to charge me a penalty fare telling me they are allowed to charge penalty fares on behalf of other TOCs even if this other TOC does not operate such penalty fare system! They refused my offer of paying the price for my ticket applicable for journey (which I attempted to buy on board) they refused and tried to charge me penalty fare, I walked away not paying anything but how many other people who perhaps don't know what they can and can't do pay up on spot as they panicked...

Edit- also early last year I had a similar issue with a guard on EMR Grimsby to Nottingam service, luckily however the TOC in question did agree that i was not in the wrong and apologised and assured me the guard in question will be spoken to, but again how many people would pay up in panic!

 

[Rockhopper]

I came back from Worksop to Shirebrook on Friday evening, the Revenue guys were out in force even though i was the only passenger on the train. When we got to Shirebrook the guard was actively stopping three young lads from getting on as they had no tickets and wanted to buy onboard. Unfortunately EMR and EMT before have rather set a precedent for buying on board as they have been offering that facility for many years despite the signs at stations saying you must have a ticket before boarding.

 

[Birmingham]

I came back from Worksop to Shirebrook on Friday evening, the Revenue guys were out in force even though i was the only passenger on the train. When we got to Shirebrook the guard was actively stopping three young lads from getting on as they had no tickets and wanted to buy onboard. Unfortunately EMR and EMT before have rather set a precedent for buying on board as they have been offering that facility for many years despite the signs at stations saying you must have a ticket before boarding.

To be fair it sounds like the guard was doing the young passengers a favour by preventing them from inevitably being PF’d. If I asked the guard on the platform whether I could buy a ticket off them I’d want them to tell me no if they know they have revenue on board.

 

[Rockhopper]

That's true, its just unfortunate that they put people into that position by habitually selling tickets on the train for so many years.

 

[DeverseSam]

That's true, its just unfortunate that they put people into that position by habitually selling tickets on the train for so many years

meanwhile in nearby Retford, Hull Trains still do

 

[AdamWW]

I've just skimmed through this thread and I haven't seen the answer to this.

GWR, on their web page on the new penalty fare regulations (https://www.gwr.com/help-and-suppor...tm_content=EB1226872&utm_campaign=GWR_PEN_SER), say that
"If you buy a ticket that has restrictions, and/or a Railcard discount, you must ensure you adhere to any restrictions and have your Railcard with you; otherwise you’ll need to pay for your journey again at the full price."

There is no "could" in that statement, it says "need".

Does this mean that if I board a train with an invalid ticket due to peak restrictions, even if I'm not penalty fared I'm required to buy a new (anytime?) ticket rather than having it excessed?

Even if there's no ticket office at the station I board that could excess it for me?

 

[Sleepy]

I've just skimmed through this thread and I haven't seen the answer to this.

GWR, on their web page on the new penalty fare regulations (https://www.gwr.com/help-and-suppor...tm_content=EB1226872&utm_campaign=GWR_PEN_SER), say that
"If you buy a ticket that has restrictions, and/or a Railcard discount, you must ensure you adhere to any restrictions and have your Railcard with you; otherwise you’ll need to pay for your journey again at the full price."

There is no "could" in that statement, it says "need".

Does this mean that if I board a train with an invalid ticket due to peak restrictions, even if I'm not penalty fared I'm required to buy a new (anytime?) ticket rather than having it excessed?

Even if there's no ticket office at the station I board that could excess it for me?

I think this is aimed at Advance ticket holders on wrong time train and "forgotten railcard" people. Is the claim a refund for a forgotten railcard new ticket in operation on all TOCs ?

 

[InkyScrolls]

It does, but it still interrupts the process of selling tickets because they need to be at a door where they can see, and use their key. Thus they point out that with stations every 3-5 minutes there's not much they can gain from ticket inspection. Furthermore although many are authorised collectors for the purposes of Penalty Fares, because they must not leave their train, they can do absolutely nothing whatsoever if the customer just walks off when they try to issue a PF. They know this so there's little point in their trying. Again when many were dedicated RPIs this wasn't an issue.

As a conductor on a number of routes with frequently full (though not crush-loaded) 4-car EMUs with stations on average every three and a half minutes, I can tell you it jolly well is possible to check the vast majority of tickets, even with Northern's strange rule of conductors having to dispatch from the rear half of the train, and I take pride in doing so to the utmost of my ability - and I know many others who do likewise. Unfortunately I also know some who go out of their way to avoid revenue collection, which to me smacks of both laziness and a lack of foresight - if redundancies come round, who are they more likely to keep? I pay for my own wages most days purely through fares taken, let alone tickets scanned!

 

[AdamWW]

I think this is aimed at Advance ticket holders on wrong time train and "forgotten railcard" people. Is the claim a refund for a forgotten railcard new ticket in operation on all TOCs ?

If that's what it means it is extremely badly phrased.

 

[RPI]

As a conductor on a number of routes with frequently full (though not crush-loaded) 4-car EMUs with stations on average every three and a half minutes, I can tell you it jolly well is possible to check the vast majority of tickets, even with Northern's strange rule of conductors having to dispatch from the rear half of the train, and I take pride in doing so to the utmost of my ability - and I know many others who do likewise. Unfortunately I also know some who go out of their way to avoid revenue collection, which to me smacks of both laziness and a lack of foresight - if redundancies come round, who are they more likely to keep? I pay for my own wages most days purely through fares taken, let alone tickets scanned!

You're so right, the amount of lazy guards who fail to see that they're not helping anyone, especially themselves! I wish more were like you

 

[Rockhopper]

I was at Doncaster on Friday and the platform announcements were telling passengers to make sure they had a ticket before boarding the Hull Trains services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I note LNR's web page on PFs has been edited again (I think it was theirs that was wrong) and now again says you have to buy online if there's no facility at the station. This is clearly garbage and I've reported it to them AGAIN.