Penalty Fare Notice Help Needed - Birmingham New Street to University, missed stop and got off train at Selly Oak 2 minutes after - 2nd Appeal Help

[Carmen]

Hi there,


Background Information:
Me and my friend were travelling from University (Birmingham) to Birmingham New Street on an Open Return. That day we suddenly felt very tired in the afternoon and wanted to return to my friend's accomodation which is near University (Birmingham). When we got to Birmingham New Street there were some cancellations that meant the train we wanted to get on was very packed, hot and stuffy and not to mention very loud! We were struggling to stay awake and alert on the train and we were packed in, as English is my third language it made it even harder to even hear anouncements but neither me or my friend recall the train making anouncements. By the time we realised we were at University (Birmingham) Station the doors had already shut.

This is both mine and my friend's first time missing a station in the UK and weren't sure what to do. My friend went on the Trainline app to try and see if there was anything we can do, as there is only 2 minutes between University (Birmingham) and Selly Oak we thought we could buy a ticket to cover that journey from University (Birmingham) and buy journey back to University.

When we were given the Penalty Fare Notice:
When the train doors open a man approached us and asked what we were doing, we told the man that we had just missed our stop and would like to get a ticket to return to University (Birmingham). This man then told us he was going to give us a Penalty Fare, we tried to explain our situation but he was ignoring us and saying that everyone says this and that it won't work. We tried to show him our ticket but he didn't want to see it and asked us to put our details into his device. I asked why I need to put my details in and he said he will only tell us once we have entered them.

After me and my friend had entered them he told us we had to pay a £100 fine which we thought was completely unfair as we were trying to make right us missing the stop, he put the reason as having no ticket but we kept telling him we had a ticket but missed our stop. At this point we are both in shock and called my British friend who used to work in the railway so he can speak to the inspector. On the phone call the inspector admitted he thought we were trying to buy tickets on friend's phone and that he didn't believe us because everyone says what we said, he admitted that he didn't ask to see the tickets and then he took the penalty fare notice back and scribbled out the reason on our notices and wrote (Travel beyond validity).

My British friend asked him why he didn't apply discretion beforehand and why he didn't want to look at their tickets and the ticket inspector said that they are trying to crack down on students avoiding paying the fares so everyone gets a Penalty Fare Notice regardless, he said he has the power to apply discretion but has been told not to because of the previous reason which was to teach students a lesson. The inspector said that people dont buy the right ticket so they can save £1 but the fares to both stations from Birmingham New Street are the same so I think he lied to my friend. He did say to my British friend that we could appeal it on the grounds above once he eventually listened to our situation, I feel he only listened because my friend used to work for the Railway.

Current Situation:
I have already used up one of my appeals trying to explain the situation, I have attached what I have sent in my first appeal to this post as well as their response. I don't think their response is fair as they talk about notice, but I am 5ft when most of the people that surrounded me and my friend are much taller, meaning that even if there were notices in Birmingham New Street or on the train we wouldn't have seen them. The only thing visible at Birmingham New Street station to us is the train departure board and the adverts that are higher up. We always buy our tickets on Trainline app as it is more convenient for us so we have never used their ticket machines either.

My British friend has had a look at the appeal and has been really trying to help and looked at the regulations. He has said that he would write a witness statement to the call and include the notes he had taken during it if that would help.

1. He thinks that there might be technicalities we could appeal on relating to how the recipt was printed, the penalty amount statement is cut off in places, I have uploaded the full reciept if someone can help confirm if that is true.
2. He also thinks that the Inspector failed to enact the regulations as he jumped to the Penalty Fare without asking to see a valid ticket before we put our details in.
3. He also didnt tear off the bottom of the notice which the notice says he has to do.
4. The website for the appeals service is also cut-off on the receipt which could be hard/impossible to assume that a foreigner is able to understand how it ends
5. In the First Appeal response the appeals company did not Comply with Schedule 2 Paragraph 8 (b) but I'm not sure what that means
6. Finally he recommended I make an account and post here to see if anyone more experienced can help me

Me and my friend have been law abiding in this country and would never fare evade, my friend is leaving the country as her Visa ends in 20 days and doesn't feel like this is fair and that she can just ignore it now, she has wanted to travel back to the UK in the future but also worries that this might be something that they would detain her for if she tried to reenter. Many other international students are feeling the same way and have made the same genuine mistake. I am planning to stay here with my partner so I really can't afford to have a criminal record missing one station by accident which is really really unfair, can anyone on here help me craft my second appeal?

Thank you to anyone who has read this far, I am still very upset about this so I appreciate anyone taking the time to just look at this

Many thanks,
Carmen

I forgot to add the response to my appeal letter, I've attached it here

Edited my submission to remove my personal details

 

[30907]

A quick response, as I am not an expert in Penalty Fares.
1. If you wish to be shot of the whole matter, pay the reduced amount of £50 + fare.
2. If you think the inspector was acting unreasonably, then pursue the appeal - I will leave others to suggest how..

Leaving technicalities aside, a reasonable person might have instructed you to take the next train back. For clarity: when you left the train at Selly Oak, did you head for the footbridge to the other platform, or to the exit, or what?

(Note: short-faring will be common on routes such as yours.)

 

[Carmen]

Hi there, I didn't make it past the line on the platform before the man approached us. My intent was to find station staff and talk to them about it before going back to University, there's no reason for us to leave at Selly Oak given that we even purchased a ticket to return to our original station from Selly Oak after getting the notice

£50 is a lot of money for an honest mistake, they haven't lost any revenue at all (same fare)

 

[GadgetMan]

Hi there, I didn't make it past the line on the platform before the man approached us. My intent was to find station staff and talk to them about it before going back to University, there's no reason for us to leave at Selly Oak given that we even purchased a ticket to return to our original station from Selly Oak after getting the notice

£50 is a lot of money for an honest mistake, they haven't lost any revenue at all (same fare)

Did the inspector who penalty fared you get off the same train as you?

It would be unusual for them to pounce on you on the platform as soon as you get off a train.

 

[Carmen]

He didn't he was waiting on the platform where the doors open, he had approached us when my friend was on the Trainline app, We had only just stepped off the train when he appraoched us.

We were on the platform for quite a while when we were trying to tell him that we had a ticket afterward he gave us the notice and he was waiting and doing it to all the trains that stopped at that platform.

It might be like my British friend was told on the phone, that they were trying to teach students who fare evade a lesson.

 

[GadgetMan]

He didn't he was waiting on the platform where the doors open, he had approached us when my friend was on the Trainline app, We had only just stepped off the train when he appraoched us.

We were on the platform for quite a while when we were trying to tell him that we had a ticket afterward he gave us the notice and he was waiting and doing it to all the trains that stopped at that platform.

It might be like my British friend was told on the phone, that they were trying to teach students who fare evade a lesson.

Look at it from his point of view. You step off train, then instead of making your way off the platform to exit station, or go to opposite platform for train back, or approach staff for advice you stand there buying tickets on your phone.

Although not impossible, it's difficult to believe 2 people together on a 7 minute journey were both so tired they missed their stop, especially as train was packed, suggesting you may have been standing.

 

[MotCO]

Most passengers who get off a train immediately make their way to the exit barriers. The inspector probably saw you hesitate when you got off the train, and assumed that you had seen him and that you didn't have a ticket and were quickly trying to buy one. He therefore pounced and issued a penalty fare. He didn't need to see your ticket since it did not cover your journey from University to Selly Oak.

 

[Carmen]

I understand what his point of view is but he did not want to listen to us.
I appreciate the perspective GadgetMan and MotCO but this thread is for help with the appeal, he gave us a penalty fare notice without asking to see a valid ticket first and only after speaking to a native speaker did he beleive us. You can't give a penalty fare based upon an assumption, you should ask for a valid ticket first right?


They didn't lose any revenue as the ticket price is the same, it would not benefit us to get a ticket to University if we actually wanted to get off at Selly Oak, this is an honest mistake and we were happy to buy a ticket back to University for it. We didn't mention to him that we were tired just that we only want to get back to University as we missed our stop and wouldn't beleive that we even had a ticket in the first place, hence the scribbled out reason, surely that's enough to show that this penalty fare (although you could apply) was not given in accordance to the regulations

 

[Carmen]

We thought he was there to help, we didn't even know inspectors like that existed, we thought he was just helpful platform staff

 

[John R]

Given the fare for both journeys is the same, is this an instance where discretion (as I believe was originally intended before the regulations were laid before parliament) should be requested?

 

[Hadders]

Unfortunately you did not possess a ticket once the train deoarted University. However inadvertent this was, legally it is a criminal offence. A Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare that is issued to people that have made 'honest mistakes', it is not an accusation of fare evasion and given the circumstances my view is to pay it to prevent the matter from escalating.

By all means appeal again, but I would not expect the appeal to succeed for the reasons you have given in your first appeal. There might be some very technical reasons why the Penalty Fare might be invalid this is normally related to signage that must be on display at the station where you started your journey. I'll leave others to comment on whether the signage at Birmingham New Street is compliant.

 

[ABB125]

As a regular user of this route, I think there are several problems here:

1. Fare evasion is high among the student population around the University of Birmingham. Many students (obviously not all!) are of the opinion that they shouldn't pay because "big greedy company" etc*. Therefore, the train operators are (quite rightly) very keen to crack down on this evasion and set an example, so that word gets passed around that "I got fined** £100" or whatever
2. At times, the trains can be very busy, especially if the train is short formed. This is less of a problem now that the class 730s have mostly taken over from the class 323s, but still can be an issue. I've been on trains where if you weren't stood in the right place (or were sat down) there was no way to get to the doors in time before the train left. This will be more of an issue with people who don't use the train as much, who are less used to how the route works
3. As has been mentioned already, you didn't have a valid ticket, so the Penalty Fare is "correct"

Having said that, the fare to Selly Oak is the same as to University. The stations are a minute apart. If I had been given a Penalty Fare for this, I would be very displeased***! I would like to think that had this happened elsewhere, discretion would be shown, but the "student effect" has unfortunately overruled that.

Note that other forum members are far more experienced and knowledgeable about Penalty Fares etc than me, so I'm happy to be corrected.


*I've occasionally had arguments online with some fairly vocal students about fare evasion. A very curious mindset, that generally also supports shoplifting. "Because it's a big company with lots of money, so it doesn't matter if I steal xyz/don't buy a ticket" is apparently a legitimate viewpoint...
**Yes, I know it's not technically a fine. But that's irrelevant
***I once had an off peak ticket with University as the origin. The gateline staff (this was before the new station opened) refused to let me through because my ticket "wasn't valid" (it was) as it was "peak time". So I walked to Selly Oak (no barriers, so no arguments), and asked at the ticket office if they could give me a zero-fare excess, to which the response was "just get on the train, no-one will care". So it very much depends on which members of staff you come across

 

[furlong]

It looks pretty obvious, but:

1) You must be asked to show a valid travel ticket before a PF can be imposed - were you? See 4(1) referenced by 5(1).

2) The Penalty Fare must be issued from the boarding station. See 9(2) and 9(3). Yours says 'University' even though you had stated you boarded at New Street. Was your ticket scanned at New St, which would provide evidence you indeed boarded there? See 17(2)(b) and 16(3)(a).

Where the amount of the fare is the same, so the train company has lost no money, you would expect no penalty to be imposed - a 'compelling reasons' ground for appeal. See 17(2)(b) and 16(3)(d).

You should make a separate complaint regarding what you were told about inspectors improperly being instructed not to use their discretion, and certainly mention this happened in your appeal.

 

[Bovverboy]

One or two aspects of this story I find bizarre, but one I find frightening, that being that if the fares to Birmingham New Street from University and Selly Oak are the same (and I have checked that they are) there was no possibility of intended evasion of payment of the correct fare.
Admittedly, there is presumably no stipulated fare for a journey University - New Street - Selly Oak, but if the fare Selly Oak - New Street - Selly Oak is the same as the fare University - New Street - University, and there are no break of journey restrictions (which I'm sure there aren't), then the journey University - New Street - Selly Oak should be able to be accommodated. That's before any issue of whether or not the travellers intentionally missed the University stop or not. In the case of someone accidentally missing their intended stop I've always understood it to be traditional to permit the passenger to travel back to their intended stop without charge.
A few months ago I travelled the full length of the Borderlands line from Bidston to Wrexham (Central), the first time I had done so. I was in possession of a Cheshire Day Ranger ticket (valid to Shotton), therefore I needed a single ticket Shotton to Wrexham (Central), and this I intended buying from the booking office at Bidston. After purchasing the ticket, a cursory glance revealed that it showed the destination Wrexham (General) rather than Central. I queried this with the booking clerk and was told that the two fares were the same. Although I feel the ticket should have shown Central (as it was the furthermost of the two stations), the moral appeared to be, if the fare is right that basically is all that matters.

 

[miklcct]

I think the best possible course is to pay the penalty fare.

A penalty fare is the means to resolve ticketing irregularities without resulting in a criminal record, and it is a necessity to deter non-compliance of fare payment in a system where it is not possible to check everyone's ticket. It simply means that the passenger didn't travel with a valid ticket and does not mean any intent of wrongdoing.

 

[BongoStar]

A bit off tangent, but in such situations, what if the passenger simply refuses to give his details and asks for BTP or a more senior staff to be called - calmly ofcourse. I know refusing to provide details is a crime in itself, but what about refusing to provide to a particular staff till a more senior one is around? And then when they are around, one can explain to them the situation and provide details if still asked?

I am just thinking that perhaps other staff would see the point and agree that PF was not needed, or in any case, there is more proof of what was said.

 

[Carmen]

It looks pretty obvious, but:

1) You must be asked to show a valid travel ticket before a PF can be imposed - were you? See 4(1) referenced by 5(1).

2) The Penalty Fare must be issued from the boarding station. See 9(2) and 9(3). Yours says 'University' even though you had stated you boarded at New Street. Was your ticket scanned at New St, which would provide evidence you indeed boarded there? See 17(2)(b) and 16(3)(a).

Where the amount of the fare is the same, so the train company has lost no money, you would expect no penalty to be imposed - a 'compelling reasons' ground for appeal. See 17(2)(b) and 16(3)(d).

You should make a separate complaint regarding what you were told about inspectors improperly being instructed not to use their discretion, and certainly mention this happened in your appeal.

Hi Furlong,

Thank you for the incisive response! I appreciate the references to the regulations.

1. I was never asked and the inspector admitted it to my British friend on the phone, until that point the inspector didn't want to see a ticket
2. My ticket was used at New street but the return journey was obviously never used as after getting the Penalty Fare Notice, me and my friend bought a ticket to get us back from Selly Oak to University.

I'll work on it further tonight, but as a starter from the information you have provided, would the following be enough?


I would like to appeal the Penalty Fare Notice (PF) for the following reasons in accordance with 17(2)(b) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022:

1. 16(3)(a) The PF was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations:
   • The PF is not valid as the inspector did not request to produce a valid ticket before the imposition of a PF as per 4(1) "A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket." therefore it was not possible to invoke 5(1)
     • I can both testify to this and provide 3rd party witness statements. Further to this, it can be seen from the PF attached that the inspector had changed the reason retrospectively after being questioned on this point over the phone as per the 3rd witness statements and notes taken during the call. [will ask my British friend to draft this tonight]
   • The boarding station on the notice is incorrect as I did not board at the station on the PF. As per 9(2) "(2) In paragraph (1), “the full single fare applicable” is the full single fare for the journey in question from the boarding station to-"referenced in 9(3) where "In paragraph (2) and (2A)], “the boarding station” means— (a)the station at which the person boarded the train; or (b)where the station mentioned in sub-paragraph (a) is not known to the collector, the station at which the train last made a scheduled call." My Boarding Station was Birmingham New Street and would be very unlikely that inspector RN***** would not know this station.
     • If the inspector requested to see a valid ticket as per his obligation to invoke a PF, this would have been evident on the provided ticket with the reference number CF********* which will show I boarded the train and Birmingham New Street and that it was not used to exit the train.
2. 16(3)(d) There are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstance of this case, that I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.
   • The fare from Birmingham New Street Station to Selly Oak is the same as Birmingham New Street to University, this can be evidenced both within my ticket history and with the fares of this route. WMR has lost no money as such there was no fare evasion and the imposition of the Penalty Fare is against the original intention of the regulations as per the 3rd November 2022 consultation outcome "The Penalty Fare Regulations allow TOCs to target fare evaders and, therefore, reduce the costs of ticketless travel while ensuring that honest, fare-paying passengers are not unfairly penalised." as Sourced: https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...-paying passengers are not unfairly penalised.

 

[Haywain]

A bit off tangent, but in such situations, what if the passenger simply refuses to give his details and asks for BTP or a more senior staff to be called - calmly ofcourse.

There's really no point - BTP would tell you to give your details, and a manager would also ask for same so that they could provide you with further information after investigating your complaint.

 

[island]

A bit off tangent, but in such situations, what if the passenger simply refuses to give his details and asks for BTP or a more senior staff to be called - calmly ofcourse. I know refusing to provide details is a crime in itself, but what about refusing to provide to a particular staff till a more senior one is around? And then when they are around, one can explain to them the situation and provide details if still asked?

Refusing to give your details (in the circumstances described in the various regulations) is an offence, including refusing to give them to one staff member as opposed to another.

 

[AdamWW]

I think the best possible course is to pay the penalty fare.

A penalty fare is the means to resolve ticketing irregularities without resulting in a criminal record, and it is a necessity to deter non-compliance of fare payment in a system where it is not possible to check everyone's ticket. It simply means that the passenger didn't travel with a valid ticket and does not mean any intent of wrongdoing.

Well if it's considered appropriate to issue a PF when there is a plausible explanation (missed the stop) and there would be no incentive to do it deliberately because the fare would be the same, there's something rather wrong with the system in my opinion.

Regardless of whether they are intended for deliberate wrongdoers or not, I don't believe that when PFs were introduced the idea was to make sure that everybody who could be penalised was, no matter what the circumstances.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Refusing to give your details (in the circumstances described in the various regulations) is an offence, including refusing to give them to one staff member as opposed to another.

And could potentially lead to an attempt to prosecute under Section 5(1) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889.

Hopefully someone more sensible would review it before laying information before the Court to avoid getting egg on their face in such a situation mind you!

 

[furlong]

I'll work on it further tonight, but as a starter from the information you have provided, would the following be enough?

The appeals system is notoriously lax and well known for conveniently disregarding numerous parts of the regulations.
Consequently you must spell everything out completely.

In other words you also have to tell them the process that the regulations say they must use to assess your appeal so they can more easily be held to account later if they don't follow it.

There are a few examples on the forum. Look at the conclusion of this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189 to see one way to do this (obviously you need to adjust it to your situation).
(By the way, it's always good to include a couple of signage arguments in an appeal - firstly that the wrong words are on the notices, and secondly that the number of notices displayed at your origin station was insufficient to comply with the requirement that amounts to ensuring that everyone travelling will see one before boarding their train.)

Conclusion

Regulation 17(4) provides that “If the relevant Appeal Panel, after considering an appeal under this regulation, concludes that any ground specified in regulation 16(3) applies, it must, subject to paragraph (7), allow the appeal.”

The evidence I have provided demonstrates that the penalty fare I received was not charged in accordance with the Regulations, due to Greater Anglia’s failure to comply with Regulation 8(4) and paragraph 1(1)(c) of Schedule 1.

The Regulations are extremely clear on this point. Notices must use the exact form of wording set out in the relevant provision of the Regulations. Failure to do so means that the notices do not comply with the Regulations. If the notices do not comply with the Regulations, a penalty fare must not be charged.

Therefore I submit that the Appeals Body is required under Regulation 17(4) to allow my appeal and to disallow my appeal would be an error of law.

If the Appeals Body were minded to disallow my appeal (which I hope will not be the case), I would encourage it to take legal advice in relation to the interpretation of these provisions in order to inform its decision and would request that details of its legal analysis is included in the decision.

Further or in the alternative, I submit that Regulation 16(3)(d) applies for the reasons set out above and ask the Appeals Body to find that there are compelling reasons I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare

 

[Carmen]

The appeals system is notoriously lax and well known for conveniently disregarding numerous parts of the regulations.
Consequently you must spell everything out completely.

In other words you also have to tell them the process that the regulations say they must use to assess your appeal so they can more easily be held to account later if they don't follow it.

There are a few examples on the forum. Look at the conclusion of this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189 to see one way to do this (obviously you need to adjust it to your situation).
(By the way, it's always good to include a couple of signage arguments in an appeal - firstly that the wrong words are on the notices, and secondly that the number of notices displayed at your origin station was insufficient to comply with the requirement that amounts to ensuring that everyone travelling will see one before boarding their train.)

Thank you! I have read through that thread now and understand what I have to add. It's going to be impossible to keep it to the 2000 character likit, but will have to probably separate some parts into .PDFs

My friend is going to New Street today to take pictures of the signs where we entered the ticket gates. I'll upload them here too! Should have my final draft done tonight with the added part stating the appeals services' obligations.

 

[Carmen]

The appeals system is notoriously lax and well known for conveniently disregarding numerous parts of the regulations.
Consequently you must spell everything out completely.

In other words you also have to tell them the process that the regulations say they must use to assess your appeal so they can more easily be held to account later if they don't follow it.

There are a few examples on the forum. Look at the conclusion of this one https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/stansted-airport-fines.253779/page-3#post-6421189 to see one way to do this (obviously you need to adjust it to your situation).
(By the way, it's always good to include a couple of signage arguments in an appeal - firstly that the wrong words are on the notices, and secondly that the number of notices displayed at your origin station was insufficient to comply with the requirement that amounts to ensuring that everyone travelling will see one before boarding their train.)

Hi Furlong,
I have received a response to my 2nd appeal.. I am shocked (but also not) that they have not allowed my appeal.
I have attached the evidence I provided and also their response. Due to the character Limit this is what I had put in the box:

To whom it may concern,
Due to the character limit, this is only the summary of my appeal against the decision to not allow the first appeal under Regulation 16 as there is new compelling evidence to appeal under Regulation 17(2)(b) based on 16(3)(a) as well as an expansion of the compelling reason of my first appeal under 16(3)(d) of The Railways (Penalty Fares) (Amendment) Regulations 2022.

This is not the main body of the appeal which includes compelling evidence, see file named “2nd Appeal [redacted name] PF[redacted number] 14.08.2024” attached. Please review all evidence attached which is in addition to that attached to my first appeal.
Summary:
16(3)(a) The Penalty Fare Notice (PF) was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations (Reg.):
Reg. 4(1): The collector did not request to produce a valid ticket before the imposition of a PF.
Reg. 6 (2)(b) subject to Reg. 8(2): The notices at Birmingham New Street are not compliant with paragraph 1 of Schedule 1.
Reg. 9(3) in relation to Reg. 9(2) & Reg. 9(2A) the boarding station on the PF is incorrect due to collector’s non-compliance with Reg. 4(1).
16(3)(d) There are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstance of this case, that I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.
The evidence attached to this appeal in support of Reg. 16(3)(a) demonstrates that this PF was not issued in accordance with the Regulations. Therefore, the Appeals Body is required to, under Reg. 17(4), allow this appeal. To disallow this appeal would be an error of law and I strongly advise the Appeals Body to take legal advice in relation to the interpretation of these provisions in order to inform this decision and request that details of its legal analysis are included in the decision.
In addition to or in the alternative, I submit that Regulation 16(3)(d) applies for the reasons set out above and ask that the Appeals Body find that there are compelling reasons I should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

I feel disheartened with this process, I still want to make a 3rd appeal but the service which has rejected me forwards my appeal to the independant appeal panel. I don't have much faith that they would forward all my evidence, given that I do not believe that they looked at everything I attached. I feel I have no faith in the UK Rail if this is how they treat their passengers.


Is there any feedback that would indicate why they would reject my 2nd appeal? How would I ensure that my 3rd appeal is completely sent and considered?


Thanks, Carmen

 

[MotCO]

Image B2 and B3 do seem to show a Penalty Fare poster, so you may be on weak ground to say there were no posters on your route. However, do you know if the wording on the posters is correct - the exact wording must be followed.

 

[30907]

Image B2 and B3 do seem to show a Penalty Fare poster, so you may be on weak ground to say there were no posters on your route. However, do you know if the wording on the posters is correct - the exact wording must be followed.

I don't think any poster anywhere has the exact correct wording

There is a better chance of a 3rd appeal being read in detail, so it's worth a try.

However, your 3d additional compelling reason simply restates your previous points under 3a, so I see no point including it, and good reason for omitting it to keep the reader onside

Re 9.3. On your PF "Travel beyond validity University to Selly Oak" exactly describes what happened. Were those written-in words added at the time the notice was issued? If not, when (as best you recollect)? I am not a PF expert, but I wonder if that might affect how your appeal is received.

 

[AlterEgo]

Appeals based on signage are rarely successful if the wording is very slightly wrong, and is in my experience the lowest quality reason to put into an appeal. Much better is to focus on the compelling reason that the fares are the same.

 

[Carmen]

I don't think any poster anywhere has the exact correct wording

There is a better chance of a 3rd appeal being read in detail, so it's worth a try.

However, your 3d additional compelling reason simply restates your previous points under 3a, so I see no point including it, and good reason for omitting it to keep the reader onside

Re 9.3. On your PF "Travel beyond validity University to Selly Oak" exactly describes what happened. Were those written-in words added at the time the notice was issued? If not, when (as best you recollect)? I am not a PF expert, but I wonder if that might affect how your appeal is received.

Hey,

At the time the inspector did not listen to us, only afterwards did the inspect cross put the reason as "no ticket" when talking to my friend in the witness statement attached.

The problem I have is I believe there are many reasons there that the appeal could be awarded on. Only one of them is enough as per the regulations but they've ignored that and only focused on the 1st appeal

 

[Carmen]

Appeals based on signage are rarely successful if the wording is very slightly wrong, and is in my experience the lowest quality reason to put into an appeal. Much better is to focus on the compelling reason that the fares are the same.

Which I feel I clearly stated in my appeal, it feels as though it is one rule for them in terms of being held to regulations and another for passengers.

I'm for the need of Penalty fares, I am not for arbitrary enforcement and punishment honest passengers, whether they be a citizen visitor or someone trying to lead an honest, rule-abiding life here.

The fact their appeals service is not compliant with the regulations 16, 17 and the Appeals Procedure leaves me at a loss. I now have to trust that this same service forwards my appeal I submit to and Independent Appeals Panel on my behalf.

After some research, one of the directors of this company is also a director in the parent company that owns Appeal Services. It offers penalty fare systems to protect revenue for TOCs, surely this is a conflict of interest (double-dipping)

Image B2 and B3 do seem to show a Penalty Fare poster, so you may be on weak ground to say there were no posters on your route. However, do you know if the wording on the posters is correct - the exact wording must be followed.

I don't think I alluded to no notice on my route, more that the display is not adequate for the busiest station outside of London.

The posters aren't compliant and you can see that one has slipped so that no TOCs are visible on the bottom.

I've given them multiple reasons that they should allow the appeal on. Just because they might not agree with one does not give the appeals service to pick and choose.

I don't think any poster anywhere has the exact correct wording

There is a better chance of a 3rd appeal being read in detail, so it's worth a try.

However, your 3d additional compelling reason simply restates your previous points under 3a, so I see no point including it, and good reason for omitting it to keep the reader onside

Re 9.3. On your PF "Travel beyond validity University to Selly Oak" exactly describes what happened. Were those written-in words added at the time the notice was issued? If not, when (as best you recollect)? I am not a PF expert, but I wonder if that might affect how your appeal is received.

The regulations are quite clear that the station on the notice must be the boarding station, the TOC must prove I did not board at Birmingham New Street (which I did), the Appeals Service must also treat what I say as correct. There is only one exemption to that and that would be if the inspector did not know my boarding station.

The fact it said no ticket and assumed it was University is only luck on the part of the Inspector since he did not listen to us. Only deciding to listen when I asked for him to speak to my friend who worked on the railway.

 

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The fact it said no ticket and assumed it was University is only luck on the part of the Inspector since he did not listen to us. Only deciding to listen when I asked for him to speak to my friend who worked on the railway.

You haven't answered my question, but I assume then that he issued the PF to you and then amended it in the light of your helpful PF expert friend's conversation.
If so, it strengthens your case IMO.