Penalty fare - Ticket bought on train

[questiononaopf]

Hello all,
I was hoping someone might be able to give me some advice on whether there are any potential benefits to appealing a penalty fare I received last week.
I took the 7:38 from London Road Guildford to Waterloo, and bought a return ticket between Guildford and London Waterloo on the train itself, so I could take a faster return journey that evening. I wasn’t aware at the time that buying on the train was a problem as I’ve frequently seen the guards allowing people to finish bookings on the train without issue.
Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.
When I tried to get through the barrier at Waterloo, I was approached by a revenue protection officer who took my details and issued a penalty fare of £66.90 - £50 plus what I assume a one way would have cost.
The penalty says that I didn’t have a ticket (when I asked the officer he said this referenced no ‘valid’ ticket). It also stated that I’d done two things wrong - buying on the train and passing through Guildford station without scanning the ticket (I had already told him I got on at London road, which doesn’t have scanners to get in and out but he said that the buying on the train point was still valid).
I clearly didn’t buy the ticket to avoid a conductor because no one was inspecting tickets on the train, and I’d bought a return for the entire length of the journey so there’s no indication of fare dodging, which I understand are the normal justifications for having to buy in advance.
I’ve already paid the penalty but wondered if there was any point to appealing the issuing in the first place?
Thank you very much in advance - happy to provide additional details if needed.

 

[Hadders]

You are required to possess a ticket for your journey before you board the train, unless there are no facilities to purchase the ticket you require using your chosen payment. London Road Guildford has a ticket machine and a ticket office so you should’ve used one of these options.

There’s nothing stopping you from appealing but I wouldn’t expect an appeal to succeed.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hello all,
I was hoping someone might be able to give me some advice on whether there are any potential benefits to appealing a penalty fare I received last week.
I took the 7:38 from London Road Guildford to Waterloo, and bought a return ticket between Guildford and London Waterloo on the train itself, so I could take a faster return journey that evening. I wasn’t aware at the time that buying on the train was a problem as I’ve frequently seen the guards allowing people to finish bookings on the train without issue.
Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.
When I tried to get through the barrier at Waterloo, I was approached by a revenue protection officer who took my details and issued a penalty fare of £66.90 - £50 plus what I assume a one way would have cost.
The penalty says that I didn’t have a ticket (when I asked the officer he said this referenced no ‘valid’ ticket). It also stated that I’d done two things wrong - buying on the train and passing through Guildford station without scanning the ticket (I had already told him I got on at London road, which doesn’t have scanners to get in and out but he said that the buying on the train point was still valid).
I clearly didn’t buy the ticket to avoid a conductor because no one was inspecting tickets on the train, and I’d bought a return for the entire length of the journey so there’s no indication of fare dodging, which I understand are the normal justifications for having to buy in advance.
I’ve already paid the penalty but wondered if there was any point to appealing the issuing in the first place?
Thank you very much in advance - happy to provide additional details if needed.

Hi and welcome

To add to @Hadders reply - there is a point in submitting an Appeal (see below)

but to give you a bit more info on what's happened in case it's of help for you to know and to avoid in future:

The railway policy (as set out in bylaws and conditions of travel) is basically to 'buy before you board' - unless there are no working ticket issuing facilities at the station where you boarded - a ticket machine or open ticket office counts as ticket issuing facilities, you are not required to buy on your phone if you don't want to, nor are you required to be able to pay by card.

Not having a ticket when you board is actually a criminal offence (dating back to Victorian era laws!) so the railway can and do prosecute people for this and it is easy for them to prove guilt.
For these sorts of incidents staff can
- 'report you for investigation' (this can result in a court prosecution, court fine and criminal record or you having to negotiate an out of court settlement with no change out of at least £150 in most cases - see lots of threads here),
- or a guard can sell a ticket on board (but govt are discouraging this because basically they want to get rid of guards on trains to save costs)
- or certain staff, but not all can issue Penalty Fares. Many Guards can't issue Penalty fares which is probably why you see them selling tickets on board or allowing people to complete on line purchases - basically being pragmatic. I doubt Revenue Protection officers would often if ever do this as one of the issues is 'pay when challenged' ie people who hope to evade a fare and only buy on the odd occasion they see a member of staff coming to check tickets. You'll understand the issue even though you clearly were not doing this.

Apart from being sold a ticket a Penalty Fare is the least worst of the penalty options that you can face (but avoid doing this again as if their database shows regular Penalty Fares being issued they will likely report you for investigation and then you are on the 'prosecution escalator')

Reasons to Appeal
- AIUI submitting an Appeal has the benefit of preventing them bringing a prosecution for the occasion concerned later on (I doubt in practice this is likely to happen but perhaps better to be 'insured against it' than not...)
- There is no downside to submitting an appeal, apart from your time taken in doing so
- An Appeal would be successful on technical grounds - eg if the Penalty Fare wasn't issued correctly or there were mistakes on the paperwork given to you - if you upload a copy of the paperwork with any personal details and ref number obscured, PF experts here can check that for you. It would certainly be worth Appealing on that basis as the PF Appeal would have to be upheld - you may need to use all 3 stages of the Appeal to win that however.

In all this do not miss the 50% prompt payment discount for paying the PF quickly (if you paid now and Appealed you would be refunded if the Appeal upheld)
The Appeal does stop the clock on payment deadlines, so if you don't have the sum to hand that can help.

Finally - what you were told about being required to scan your ticket before boarding is, I believe, nonsense - but if others here say I'm wrong I'll stand corrected!
Obviously the railway likes you to do this because the scan creates all sorts of proof and digital Info for them about when you boarded and where, so they like people to do this as it helps investigate possible evasion etc - but AFAIK there is no requirement to do so.

Many stations around the UK do not have barriers, and barriers are often left open and people can walk through them without putting in a paper ticket or being forced to scan a ticket with a barcode code on it. Ignore that instruction. There is no enforcement action the railway can take against people who do not scan tickets unless they are specifically asked by staff to show a ticket, and the staff then scan it - digital tickets include lots of info including the time it was purchased, which is why staff can see that you bought it after boarding the train, indeed I think their hand held scanners actually alert the staff that this has happened so they can consider issuing a Penalty fare etc to the ticket holder for the breach of not buying before boarding.

Hope this info is of use.

 

[jfollows]

Agreed, there is no requirement to scan a valid ticket, we’ve seen reports here that people are told this, but it’s nonsense, staff making up rules which is not uncommon.

 

[Snow1964]

For clarity, if you started at London Road Guildford, did you take the direct train (via Cobham), or via Guildford (changing to a faster train).

If the penalty has been issued from Guildford instead, or via Guildford, (and you didn't travel that way), then possibly the amount charged £66.90 + penalty might be wrong. You cannot be issued a penalty for a different journey, and would be reason to appeal.

 

[AlterEgo]

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued for buying a ticket after boarding but before you were asked to show it. If you showed a valid ticket to the inspector - which you did - then the Penalty Fare is void. This is abundantly simple and the least "technical" of all appeal reasons.

Appeal, based on the grounds you showed a valid ticket, and this also closes off any prosecution route under Bylaw 18.

 

[jfollows]

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued for buying a ticket after boarding but before you were asked to show it. If you showed a valid ticket to the inspector - which you did - then the Penalty Fare is void. This is abundantly simple and the least "technical" of all appeal reasons.

Appeal, based on the grounds you showed a valid ticket, and this also closes off any prosecution route under Bylaw 18.

Just to be clear, are you saying that whereas a Penalty Fare can not be issued, @questiononaopf could have been reported for prosecution under Bylaw 18, but wasn't? So an appeal against an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare will reverse the Penalty Fare and also prevent the different type of prosecution which could originally have been brought?

 

[island]

A Penalty Fare cannot be issued for buying a ticket after boarding but before you were asked to show it. If you showed a valid ticket to the inspector - which you did - then the Penalty Fare is void. This is abundantly simple and the least "technical" of all appeal reasons.

Agreed.

Appeal, based on the grounds you showed a valid ticket, and this also closes off any prosecution route under Bylaw 18.

Unless the TOC cancels the PF before the appeal is determined, that is.

 

[AlterEgo]

Just to be clear, are you saying that whereas a Penalty Fare can not be issued, @questiononaopf could have been reported for prosecution under Bylaw 18, but wasn't? So an appeal against an incorrectly issued Penalty Fare will reverse the Penalty Fare and also prevent the different type of prosecution which could originally have been brought?

Correct. The TOC has snookered itself here. Many such cases!

 

[questiononaopf]

Great, thank you all for taking the time to answer.
It sounds as though there’s a definite benefit to appealing in closing off any chances of prosecution (which I assume is unlikely as I immediately paid the penalty and this was my first penalty but better safe than sorry), and there might be a decent chance of actually getting a refund!
From what I’ve read before, the first couple of appeals are very unlikely to be granted anyway, so I had thought I’d keep the appeal simple and to the point rather than including lots of detail? Something like:
The penalty fare was invalidly issued. When asked by a SWR representative I was able to show a valid ticket for the journey I had just taken.
In addition, the information on the penalty fare was incorrect - as the SWR representative was informed at the time, I had boarded the train at London Road station.
Therefore no valid grounds have been provided for issuing the penalty fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could you post a copy of the penalty fare with your details related?

Also, exactly which train did you take?

 

[questiononaopf]

Of course - I’ll post a picture tomorrow morning when I’m home.
It was the 7:38 to London Waterloo, I didn’t double back to Guildford.

 

[MotCO]

A point of clarification. Is a ticket invalidated if bought on the train after departure? If so, the OP may not have had a valid ticket.

But if the Penalty Fare quoted the wrong station, then those are good grounds to win an appeal, before we even look at things like correct signage at the station boarded.

 

[cool110]

A point of clarification. Is a ticket invalidated if bought on the train after departure? If so, the OP may not have had a valid ticket.

No, it's still valid. What it does show is that they didn't have one before boarding, so would have committed the byelaw 18 offence (assuming the station had a working TVM or open ticket office)

 

[AlterEgo]

A point of clarification. Is a ticket invalidated if bought on the train after departure?

No. A ticket whensoever bought is a valid ticket.

 

[furlong]

What reason is written on the notice? It would help to upload a complete copy (covering up personal details) so any further errors can be spotted and mentioned.

What was the exact type and price of the ticket you had purchased?

Quote directly from the regulations so there can be no argument.

4.—(1) A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket.

which you say you did - include a copy as evidence.

5.—(1) Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare.

as you say you didn't fail, there'd be no basis for charging the PF.

 

[island]

A point of clarification. Is a ticket invalidated if bought on the train after departure? If so, the OP may not have had a valid ticket.

It is not invalid, but its purchase does not "uncommit" any offences that may have been committed by the passenger up to that point.

 

[transportphoto]

Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.

So the ticket purchase was complete prior to boarding the train? What time was the purchase complete? I’m guessing at some point after 07:34 and before 07:38. If it was before 07:38, you had a valid ticket when boarding.

 

[AlterEgo]

So the ticket purchase was complete prior to boarding the train? What time was the purchase complete? I’m guessing at some point after 07:34 and before 07:38. If it was before 07:38, you had a valid ticket when boarding.

The OP means the arrival at Waterloo. They purchased on the train.

 

[questiononaopf]

I’ve attached the penalty fare here.

 

[AlterEgo]

Splendid, they admit you presented a ticket there, and both grounds are spurious. There is no requirement to "validate" a ticket.

They contradict themselves by saying you had "no ticket" yet also explain you did in fact have one - twice.

 

[questiononaopf]

Great! Thank you all once again.
Based on what several of you have said, I'll be appealing today on the following basis:
The penalty fare was invalidly issued.
The basis given for the penalty fare being issued was "no ticket". This is presumably based on regulation 4.—(1) "A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket" and 5.—(1) "Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare."
When asked by the SWR representative at London Waterloo station I was able to show a valid ticket for the journey I had just taken - as admitted on the penalty fare. I have uploaded a picture of the ticket and can see that an image was already attached to the penalty fare itself.
Additionally, the other ground given for the penalty fare - that I did not validate the ticket at Guildford - is both not a valid ground for issuing a penalty fare in the first place and also incorrect. As I explain to the SWR representative at the time, I boarded the train at London Road Guildford, which does not have gates barring entry without a ticket, and bought a return to Guildford so I could take the faster train home that evening.
Therefore no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, i had a ticket that I displayed when requested.

 

[Watershed]

Great! Thank you all once again.
Based on what several of you have said, I'll be appealing today on the following basis:
The penalty fare was invalidly issued.
The basis given for the penalty fare being issued was "no ticket". This is presumably based on regulation 4.—(1) "A person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train must, if required to do so by or on behalf of an operator, produce a valid travel ticket" and 5.—(1) "Subject to regulations 6, 7 and 10, if a person fails to produce a platform ticket or a valid travel ticket in accordance with regulation 4, a collector may charge that person a penalty fare."
When asked by the SWR representative at London Waterloo station I was able to show a valid ticket for the journey I had just taken - as admitted on the penalty fare. I have uploaded a picture of the ticket and can see that an image was already attached to the penalty fare itself.
Additionally, the other ground given for the penalty fare - that I did not validate the ticket at Guildford - is both not a valid ground for issuing a penalty fare in the first place and also incorrect. As I explain to the SWR representative at the time, I boarded the train at London Road Guildford, which does not have gates barring entry without a ticket, and bought a return to Guildford so I could take the faster train home that evening.
Therefore no valid grounds have been provided for issuing this penalty fare - it was issued on the grounds of my not possessing a ticket, but as admitted on the penalty fare itself and as has already been uploaded by the SWR representative themselves, i had a ticket that I displayed when requested.

That seems fairly well drafted. It's worth noting that there are three stages of appeal, each of which involves a different person (or panel, in the case of the third appeal stage) looking at your appeal. In our experience, first and second stage appeals are often spuriously rejected with the Penalty Fares appeals body making up their own rules or using 'moral' logic rather than looking at the strict wording of the Regulations, as they should do. Often it is only at the third stage that an appeal is allowed - even if the same grounds are used for all three stages!

So don't be dismayed if your first stage appeal doesn't succeed - it provides you with valuable protection from prosecution, and is merely the first potential step in getting this matter resolved.

 

[LAX54]

He said: Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.

I am reading that as just a short distance from Waterloo, so would that make a differnce if that is the case ?

 

[questiononaopf]

That seems fairly well drafted. It's worth noting that there are three stages of appeal, each of which involves a different person (or panel, in the case of the third appeal stage) looking at your appeal. In our experience, first and second stage appeals are often spuriously rejected with the Penalty Fares appeals body making up their own rules or using 'moral' logic rather than looking at the strict wording of the Regulations, as they should do. Often it is only at the third stage that an appeal is allowed - even if the same grounds are used for all three stages!

So don't be dismayed if your first stage appeal doesn't succeed - it provides you with valuable protection from prosecution, and is merely the first potential step in getting this matter resolved.

Great, thank you all again for the help - the support is greatly appreciated . I’ll post an update when I get a response

He said: Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.

I am reading that as just a short distance from Waterloo, so would that make a differnce if that is the case ?

It was a short enough period that it had the ‘ticket bought in the last 10 minute’ warning on the revenue protection officers phone I think

 

[AlterEgo]

He said: Partially because of bad wi fi and partially because I wasn’t aware there was any hurry, I didn’t finish the purchase until a few minutes before the train arrived.

I am reading that as just a short distance from Waterloo, so would that make a differnce if that is the case ?

No. A valid ticket was shown under the Regulations.

 

[LAX54]

No. A valid ticket was shown under the Regulations.

That's fine my error, I read the bit 'as train arrived' as train was arriving into London. (he had seen others buying a ticket on the train before}

 

[chawky]

That's fine my error, I read the bit 'as train arrived' as train was arriving into London. (he had seen others buying a ticket on the train before}

That is what they meant, but it doesn’t make a difference in this case.

 

[furlong]

Also if you told the inspector that you boarded at London Road, that is the station from which the PF should have been issued - not from Guildford.
See "the boarding station" in the regulations.
(If he had grounds not to believe you then he would have had to issue it from the last stop of the train before Waterloo instead.)
(There is a potential loophole they could argue where the amount of the fare is the same, as here, so the figure on the notice remains correct i.e. the error is not material. I'd mention the error in the station name, but not push that argument very much.)
(Also be aware that Penalty Fares appeals only concern themselves with the £50/100 penalty element of the charge - the appeals process has no power to remove the liability to pay £16.90. That may have to be argued separately afterwards if the company doesn't waive this - often they do when they lose.)

 

[questiononaopf]

Appeal has now been submitted! Thank you all once again

Also if you told the inspector that you boarded at London Road, that is the station from which the PF should have been issued - not from Guildford.
See "the boarding station" in the regulations.
(If he had grounds not to believe you then he would have had to issue it from the last stop of the train before Waterloo instead.)
(There is a potential loophole they could argue where the amount of the fare is the same, as here, so the figure on the notice remains correct i.e. the error is not material. I'd mention the error in the station name, but not push that argument very much.)
(Also be aware that Penalty Fares appeals only concern themselves with the £50/100 penalty element of the charge - the appeals process has no power to remove the liability to pay £16.90. That may have to be argued separately afterwards if the company doesn't waive this - often they do when they lose.)

Thank you for the warning - just getting the appeal part back would be a big relief but hopefully the whole thing is sorted without too much hassle