Penalty Fare

[worried12345]

Hi Everyone,

I’ve posted here before about a problem i had with my railcard and you were very helpful so thought i’d post again.

I travelled today on the 8:26 East Midlands train from Stockport to Manchester Oxford Road. I held an anytime day return, but had mistakenly booked this for tomorrow on trainline rather than today.

The attendant in stockport looked at my ticket and let me through the gate after my ticket would not scan, and I was stopped at oxford road. The attendant attempted to issue me a ticket irregularity notice, but I have already dealt with one of these this year and was very keen to avoid doing so again, so asked for a penalty fare. The original attendant refused, but I spoke to another member of staff who agreed.

He mentioned that I could appeal, I essentially want to know if I have any grounds for doing so. If this is just open and shut i’m happy to just pay and move on. This is probably not relevant, but my open return ticket was £7.70 and was being paid for by my work so there was no reason for me to try to travel unlawfully and no reason for me to have a ticket for tomorrow instead, so this was demonstrably a mistake.

Thanks for any help!

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Hi Everyone,

I’ve posted here before about a problem i had with my railcard and you were very helpful so thought i’d post again.

I travelled today on the 8:26 East Midlands train from Stockport to Manchester Oxford Road. I held an anytime day return, but had mistakenly booked this for tomorrow on trainline rather than today.

The attendant in stockport looked at my ticket and let me through the gate after my ticket would not scan, and I was stopped at oxford road. The attendant attempted to issue me a ticket irregularity notice, but I have already dealt with one of these this year and was very keen to avoid doing so again, so asked for a penalty fare. The original attendant refused, but I spoke to another member of staff who agreed.

He mentioned that I could appeal, I essentially want to know if I have any grounds for doing so. If this is just open and shut i’m happy to just pay and move on. This is probably not relevant, but my open return ticket was £7.70 and was being paid for by my work so there was no reason for me to try to travel unlawfully and no reason for me to have a ticket for tomorrow instead, so this was demonstrably a mistake.

Thanks for any help!

There's two possible approaches here:
- consider whether the notice has been issued fairly or not: if it's fair, then pay up, or
- consider whether every i has been dotted and every t crossed in the issue of the penalty fare: only if in every possible respect has the notice been issued correctly, then pay up

It won't come as any particular surprise from the way I have phrased the above that I prefer the first approach: it seems to me to be fair to both passenger and railway - and in practice we have seen that people who take the second approach have to fight hard and are not guaranteed success. So I will concentrate only on the first approach: I expect that there will be other contributors along soon who will advocate for the second and suggest possible ways to use it.

So for the first approach, the question is whether a penalty fare is fair to everyone involved? As a penalty fare is <the ordinary fare + £100> (reduced to <the ordinary fare + £50> if paid within 21 days) we are talking about an amount of money which for most people will be painful to pay but not life-changing. And Northern (who I think run Oxford Road station) describe who might get a penalty fare as follows on https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fare:

What are Penalty Fares?​

If a passenger gets on a train without a ticket or Promise to Pay notice at a station where ticket buying facilities are available, they may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

A Penalty Fare is £100 plus the price of the appropriate single fare for your intended journey. However, if it is paid within 21 days, the Penalty Fare is reduced to £50 plus the price of the single fare

(...)​

Examples of when a Penalty Fare may be charged:​

If you:

• travel without a valid ticket
• are aged 16 or over, travelling on a child-rate ticket
• travel beyond the destination on your ticket

(...)​

Why does Northern use Penalty Fares?​

Reducing the number of people who travel without a ticket is not only in our interest as. the operator, but also in the interest of our fare-paying customers.

Few of us want to pay more for our tickets because some people avoid paying, and the loss of income due to people travelling without tickets reduces the money available to invest in a better rail service.

If I do not buy a ticket before travelling, is it an automatic Penalty Fare?​

You are responsible for ensuring that you purchase a ticket or obtain a Promise to Pay notice that is valid for your entire journey before travelling, otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare.

Northern is responsible for ensuring that the facility to purchase a ticket or Promise to Pay notice is available.

If you have previously been issued with a penalty fare notice, Northern reserves the right to consider alternative measures such as issuing a fixed penalty notice or direct prosecution in lieu of a penalty fare notice.

Can I pay at my destination if I am in a rush?​

If you board a train without a valid ticket or Promise to Pay notice you may have to pay a Penalty Fare. If it is shown that your intention was to avoid your fare, then you are breaking the criminal law and you may be liable for prosecution.

I don't see anything in Northern's description of penalty fares that requires malice on the part of the passenger: indeed, the last sentence that I have quoted suggests that if there was intent to avoid paying a fare then prosecution might follow.

So to answer the question that I posed above, in your circumstances (that you didn't have a ticket valid for today), given that the penalty fare is painful but probably not disastrous I would suggest that the best bet is to accept it, and pay it - within 21 days so that you benefit from the discount to <the ordinary fare + £50>.

As I say, I expect others who are prepared to take a more combative approach to the railway to be along with differing advice shortly.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Were you issued a penalty fare in the end?

If so, pay it and move on

 

[Hadders]

Technically your ticket was invalid and a Penalty Fare is an appropriate remedy for this.

There is nothing to be lost by appealing, indeed there are many advantages in doing so. When explaining why you're appealing it might be worth referring to what happened as an 'administrative error'. Many companies like using administrative errors as an excuse for getting something wrong.

On a related subject I recently got a parking ticket, turns out I'd incorrectly keyed the location number into the app - I was one difit out and had paid to park a couple of streets away. I appealed, pointing out that I'd paid the correct fee to the correct company but had made an administrative error in keying in the location. To my surprise they cancelled the ticket.

Also related, my employer's corporate rail booking site defaults to tomorrows date when booking tickets. I have to be careful when booking tickets to travel the same day, it's nearly caught me out a few times!

 

[worried12345]

Thanks for your replies and advice. I think my best bet then might be to appeal just incase northern is feeling generous and be prepared to pay the fine if not. Though I may just pay it now if I decide it’s not worth the effort.

I have seen you guys in other threads about ticket irregularities and i thought it might be of interest that neither of the people I spoke to at the station seemed to realise that a penalty fair is the preferable option. When I asked for a penalty fair they seemed surprised. It seems like there is a disconnect with conductors/staff at stations and the train companies on recognising how much of a hassle a ticket irregularity report can cause. This is consistent with the last time I revived an irregularly report and the conductor told me that it wasn’t serious.

 

[RPI]

You say you travelled on an EMR service? Do the PF notices at Stockport have the EMR logo on them and do Penalty Fares apply to EMR services from there?

 

[worried12345]

You say you travelled on an EMR service? Do the PF notices at Stockport have the EMR logo on them and do Penalty Fares apply to EMR services from there

I think it was the EMR service - that's what trainline says anyway. I was given the penalty fare at Oxford Road and is has the Northern logo.

 

[Haywain]

Do the PF notices at Stockport have the EMR logo on them and do Penalty Fares apply to EMR services from there?

The EMR Penalty Fares leaflet appears to indicate that they are not, unless I am misreading it.

 

[Trainman40083]

I seriously doubt East Midlands Railway run the station at Stockport. Surely Avanti West Coast. As a general comment, why do people use the Trainline for an anytime day return? Surely with an admin fee, it is more expensive than buying it at the station on the day.

 

[worried12345]

I seriously doubt East Midlands Railway run the station at Stockport. Surely Avanti West Coast. As a general comment, why do people use the Trainline for an anytime day return? Surely with an admin fee, it is more expensive than buying it at the station on the day.

I definitely should not have used trainline - i used it this time around because i’m traveling for a conference and figured a digital receipt would be easier to do my expense claim with.

 

[AlterEgo]

I seriously doubt East Midlands Railway run the station at Stockport. Surely Avanti West Coast. As a general comment, why do people use the Trainline for an anytime day return? Surely with an admin fee, it is more expensive than buying it at the station on the day.

Their booking fees are not charged on tickets bought on the day.

 

[yorkie]

Hi Everyone,

I’ve posted here before about a problem i had with my railcard and you were very helpful so thought i’d post again.

I travelled today on the 8:26 East Midlands train from Stockport to Manchester Oxford Road. I held an anytime day return, but had mistakenly booked this for tomorrow on trainline rather than today.

The attendant in stockport looked at my ticket and let me through the gate after my ticket would not scan, and I was stopped at oxford road. The attendant attempted to issue me a ticket irregularity notice, but I have already dealt with one of these this year and was very keen to avoid doing so again, so asked for a penalty fare. The original attendant refused, but I spoke to another member of staff who agreed.

He mentioned that I could appeal, I essentially want to know if I have any grounds for doing so. If this is just open and shut i’m happy to just pay and move on. This is probably not relevant, but my open return ticket was £7.70 and was being paid for by my work so there was no reason for me to try to travel unlawfully and no reason for me to have a ticket for tomorrow instead, so this was demonstrably a mistake.

Thanks for any help!

A penalty fare is deemed by train companies to be a higher than normal fare, charged to people who make mistakes, under certain circumstances, including the circumstances you describe.

It is not an accusation of fare evasion.

There is no automatic entitlement to one, and most passengers wouldn't ask for one.

There are no grounds to appeal on your case.

I definitely should not have used trainline - i used it this time around because i’m traveling for a conference and figured a digital receipt would be easier to do my expense claim with.

If you bought it on the day, there isn't a booking fee. Our site doesn't charge booking fees, so you could use us, and a small proportion goes towards the upkeep of the forum

 

[RPI]

Looking at the EMR Penalty Fares leaflet from their website, Stockport isn't shown as a Penalty Fares station, if you definitely did travel on an EMR service then I would appeal on this basis.

 

[gray1404]

Looking at the EMR Penalty Fares leaflet from their website, Stockport isn't shown as a Penalty Fares station, if you definitely did travel on an EMR service then I would appeal on this basis.

Agreed and expressly explain how (no red icon on map next to station name) as it is easy to overlook this on first glance.

 

[island]

Their booking fees are not charged on tickets bought on the day.

The OP did not buy a ticket for the day on which they were travelling, so would have been liable for a booking fee.

 

[MotCO]

If your ticket was invalid (i.e,bought for the wrong day), and you had to buy a new ticket as part of the penalty fare, can you get a refund on the wrong, technically unused, ticket?

 

[RPI]

If your ticket was invalid (i.e,bought for the wrong day), and you had to buy a new ticket as part of the penalty fare, can you get a refund on the wrong, technically unused, ticket?

No, if you successfully appeal then the "Penalty" aspect is cancelled but in this case the fare would still be payable.

 

[MotCO]

No, if you successfully appeal then the "Penalty" aspect is cancelled but in this case the fare would still be payable.

But if your appeal was unsuccessful, you pay £50 plus ticket price, so you have bought a ticket for your actual journey, but still have a ticket for the wrong date. Can you claim a refund on the wrong date ticket?

 

[AlterEgo]

But if your appeal was unsuccessful, you pay £50 plus ticket price, so you have bought a ticket for your actual journey, but still have a ticket for the wrong date. Can you claim a refund on the wrong date ticket?

Not unless it was both

a) a refundable ticket in the first place, and
b) the Penalty Fare entirely replaces that ticket; many are issued enroute and not to the final destination.

 

[worried12345]

Something related to this - I've travelled the same route today since I'm at a two day conference. I have bought a new ticket to avoid complication because my outbound ticket was scanned yesterday before they told me it was for today. Could I have used that ticket again today (when it was valid) even though it had been involved in a penalty fare?

 

[AlterEgo]

Something related to this - I've travelled the same route today since I'm at a two day conference. I have bought a new ticket to avoid complication because my outbound ticket was scanned yesterday before they told me it was for today. Could I have used that ticket again today (when it was valid) even though it had been involved in a penalty fare?

Yes, technically, although I would expect problems as it was scanned yesterday. You'd have needed to carry your Penalty Fare with you, and even then for £7 I wouldn't have bothered.

 

[furlong]

10(5) A collector may only charge a penalty fare under regulation 5(1) to a person who is travelling by, present on or leaving a train if the collector has been authorised to charge a penalty fare by the operator of that train

The leaflet makes clear that EMR has not authorised any collector to charge a Penalty Fare to a passenger leaving an EMR train at that station.

(2) The absence of a logo or name, as required by sub-paragraph (1)(f), on a notice only invalidates the notice in relation to the operator whose logo or name is missing.

If you can check the notices at Stockport that might provide additional useful evidence.

So appeal under

16(3)(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these Regulations.

 

[worried12345]

Hi Everyone, just a quick update to say that the appeal was successful! They have just asked me to cover the amount for a single ticket and waived the penalty. Thanks for your help with this!

 

[John R]

That’s great news, and good that they have acknowledged the mistake made. Thanks for letting us know the outcome.

 

[MotCO]

Hi Everyone, just a quick update to say that the appeal was successful! They have just asked me to cover the amount for a single ticket and waived the penalty. Thanks for your help with this!

That's a good result -thans for letting us know.

Is this the first time a train company has confirmed that a Penalty Fare was not issued in line with the regulations?

 

[Haywain]

they have acknowledged the mistake made

Well, one of them, and it's not clear which one!