Penalty Fare

[RJ]

I undertook the following journey using an adult PAYG Oyster Card, starting at 11:22 on a weekday with £5.40 credit;

11:22 Forest Hill - Manor Park 12:03 (via ZCW/SRA)
12:18 Woodgrange Park - Wanstead Park 12:38
12:47 Forest Gate - Liverpool Street 13:05

The times given are the times I touched in and out according to the usage statement. Upon arrival at Liverpool Street, I attempted to touch out but the barrier threw up a Code 36 - insufficient credit/no season ticket loaded. I was redirected to two NXEA Revenue Inspectors and spent the next 90 minutes dicsussing the situation with them before I gave up and paid as I had to get to work. A lot of staff, police, managers etc. got involved but none of them wanted to give a definitive instruction to the RPIs upon hearing the complexity of the situation.

One of the RPIs gave the reason of me not touching in at Forest Gate for issuing a Penalty Fare. The other did not give a clear reason, his belief was that it was an Oyster problem but he was going to issue a PF anyway and told me to appeal as I would almost certainly be successful .

A PCSO who was called over believed in what I was saying and against the wishes of the RPIs, went and retrieved an Oyster usage statement so I could support my argument. It showed me touching in at 6876 at 12:47. Unfortunately, the RPIs didn't know/feigned ignorance at the fact that 6876 is the NLC code for Forest Gate. It made my blood boil when one of them continued to say that I didn't touch in at Forest Gate - he told me that I was confused and that I meant that I touched in at Forest Hill, not Forest Gate . These so called RPI were equipped with a MOVie and the usage statement and still could not understand the journey I undertook. I was also detained until I paid the fare and they threatened to get me arrested - clearly I had no intent of avoiding the fare.

I know precisely what happened with the Oyster Card. It is a complicated issue to do with entry charges, time limits and Out of Station Interchanges. A human would find it reasonable that I wanted to get from Forest Hill to Wanstead Park, then into Central London. The card can only follow its commands and decided I was travelling from Forest Hill to Liverpool Street thanks to OSIs threading the journeys together to make one long one. Is this my fault though?

What makes this worse was that the day before this, I purchased a Zone 1-6 7 Day Travelcard on my Zip Card in order to avoid having to use Oyster PAYG. The machine took the money and issued a receipt but there was a fault and the Travelcard did not load onto the Zip Card.

I've read about other people getting a penalty fare, usually for not carrying a ticket giving some weak excuse and hoping they'll be let off, but not for this sort of situation. I had the credit to complete the journey, touched in and out correctly but got caught by a flaw in the Oyster system. Does anyone reckon I have grounds for a successful appeal?

 

[transportphoto]

I have had a similar problem with OYSTER on that side of London - but it registered a 'Unstarted Journey' and just let me through the gates.

My journey was Dalston Kingsland to LST, the gates were in operation a DLK where I touched in, this didn't register with the system.

So you are not alone with the oyster problems!

---------------------------------------------

6876 sure is the NLC for Forest Gate, what I would do is go to any LUL ticket office and ask for a usage print out, these show station names not NLC's so this should help you if shows Forest Hill.
Then I would contact London Overground and request the CCTV footage of the gateline at Forest Hill for the period 3 days before the PF to 3 days after the PF, this should show that you did touch in.

Using these two pieces of evidence - appeal.

Also, have you got the PCSO's number / name, this would help as she was involved.

 

[b0b]

Never pay the penalty fare, especially if you don't think you did something wrong and the RPI says "you'll get it back on appeal".

The Evening Standard has advice on what to do here:
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

 

[EM2]

This might be an obvious question, but seeing as you changed at Stratford, why not go into Liverpool Street from there?

 

[RJ]

This might be an obvious question, but seeing as you changed at Stratford, why not go into Liverpool Street from there?

I wanted to get from Forest Hill to Wanstead Park

.....

 

[EM2]

So why not go SRA - FOG and walk up the road?

I would have argued about the problems with your 7-day TC not loading, rather than just using PAYG.

EDIT - Did you touch in at Forest Hill, in and out at Canada Water and in and out at Stratford? I got caught out like this last night at Vauxhall, coming in from Richmond.

 

[Hager98]

Why should anyone be issued with a penalty fare when the RPI's wont examine what you are saying and why should you have to jump through hoops to get your money back.

 

[MikeWh]

EDIT - Did you touch in at Forest Hill, in and out at Canada Water and in and out at Stratford? I got caught out like this last night at Vauxhall, coming in from Richmond.

Hopefully he used the pink validator at Canada Water as there was no need to exit the station. I don't know Stratford well enough to know if the same was the case there, or whether it was another OSI.

You've actually got two problems here, you've paid a penalty fare which you shouldn't have needed to do and your Oystercard has also been overcharged. The Oyster helpline will quite happily arrange a refund once you explain what happened. They've sorted me out on a number of occasions. What you really need them to do as well is write you a letter which you can forward onto the TOC explaining that the Oyster system was at fault and that the penalty fare was therefore unnecessary. I don't know whether they will do that but it must be worth a try.

For the future I really would recommend setting up auto top-up on your Oystercard and then checking your journey history regularly. You'll never be out of credit that way (hence not in danger of getting a PF) and the Oyster helpline will sort out refunds if an error can be properly explained.

 

[EM2]

Good point, I'd forgotten about the validators.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone reckon I have grounds for a successful appeal?

Yes. But I also thought that was the case three weeks ago when you posted the same saga in WNXX...

 

[MikeWh]

Yes. But I also thought that was the case three weeks ago when you posted the same saga in WNXX...

Hmmm. You'll need to get a move on if you haven't already contacted the Oyster helpline. :?

...
11:22 Forest Hill - Manor Park 12:03 (via ZCW/SRA)
12:18 Woodgrange Park - Wanstead Park 12:38
12:47 Forest Gate - Liverpool Street 13:05
...

I know precisely what happened with the Oyster Card. It is a complicated issue to do with entry charges, time limits and Out of Station Interchanges. A human would find it reasonable that I wanted to get from Forest Hill to Wanstead Park, then into Central London. The card can only follow its commands and decided I was travelling from Forest Hill to Liverpool Street thanks to OSIs threading the journeys together to make one long one. Is this my fault though?

I've been looking at a map and I have to say I'm a little puzzled. Whilst it is reasonable to want to go from Forest Hill to Wanstead Park, I'm not sure I see the point of going via Manor Park and Woodgrange Park. The distance between those two stations is pretty similar to the distance between Wanstead Park and Forest Gate, so surely you've just added an extra half an hour to your journey? I'm not saying that you're not entitled to make the journey, of course; just that it seems a little convoluted at the end. My advice to anyone else making a similar sort of circular journey is to stretch one of the OSI gaps enough for it to be counted as a new journey.

 

[b0b]

The real problem here seems to be an issue with the Oyster system, aren't OSI's supposed to help keep down the cost of a trip, where in this case it apparently has used OSI's to charge more.

the Oyster system needs to figure out the most favorable fare considering where the OSI saves money.

Or am I missing something here?

 

[MikeWh]

The real problem here seems to be an issue with the Oyster system, aren't OSI's supposed to help keep down the cost of a trip, where in this case it apparently has used OSI's to charge more.

the Oyster system needs to figure out the most favorable fare considering where the OSI saves money.

Or am I missing something here?

It's not quite that straightforward. Usually an OSI would be used to continue a journey that is vaguely going in the same direction, or at least where there is not a more direct route. In this specific example the user has doubled back after making an extension that wouldn't be part of a Forest Hill to Liverpool Street journey. However, further looking at the specifics raises a new twist.

The journey started in Z3, moved into Z2, back out to Z3, then through Z2 and into Z1. That makes it a five zone journey which should be allowed to take 110 minutes on Monday to Friday daytimes. However, as described above it only actually took 103 minutes. It therefore looks like it has ignored the fact that it went back out to Z3 and treated it as a straightforward three zone journey, maximum 90 minutes. Is this a reasonable thing to do? What I don't yet know is whether the Oyster card remembers every detail about that day's journey(s) or whether it just keeps track of the start, any route validation and the last touch out if a potential OSI, for the current journey. It obviously knows how much has been spent and when so it can apply the correct cap. The central system clearly knows everything, but does the individual reader at the point that the card hovers over it? Can any London based RPIs confirm what they can tell when they read a card with a MOVie?

 

[charlesn132]

There's something wrong with the Forest Hill Oyster card top-up machines, it most of the time cannot read my card.

 

[bicbasher]

There's something wrong with the Forest Hill Oyster card top-up machines, it most of the time cannot read my card.

I've never had that problem using the TVM's at Forest Hill. Unlike most of the ELL extension stations, FOH didn't get new TVM's and is using existing equipment inherited from Southern.

Incidentally, you can use the ticket office to top-up your Oyster Card.

 

[Hager98]

Is Forest Hill the only ELL southern section station to top up Oyster cards at the ticket office

 

[Helvellyn]

Whatever the reasons the journey being made by the OP (which seems to be round the houses) the point that struck me is the reason exit was denied at Liverpool Street - 36 - insufficient credit/no season loaded. The Oyster card has therefore gone into negative balance, and the OP would not be allowed through barrier gates to make another journey until they put more credit on the card. E.g. if they had gone to a -£2 balance, then by adding £10 they'd have a new balance of +£8. I can't understand why a Penalty Fare was issued for that, because the user will pay for the journey when they clear the negative balance - and can't make another one until it has been cleared.

Any appeal for the Penalty Fare should clearly state that the reason exit was refused by the barriers was the Oyster card going into negative balance. But what is also odd, is that exit was refused - I believe on SWT the barriers will let someone out with a negative balance, but then not back in.

 

[bicbasher]

Is Forest Hill the only ELL southern section station to top up Oyster cards at the ticket office

All the ex Southern stations on the ELL are Oyster ready at the ticket office, this was possible by a software upgrade to the Southern equipment.

However, they can't register or issue Oyster, add photocards, nor sell discounted tickets such as Bus & Tram passes/travelcards. They can't sell annual travelcards either, this is still issued on a paper ticket.

LOROL have no plans to upgrade them to the same equipment used on the core stretch of the ELL from Surrey Quays to Dalston Junction which can do all those things above.

 

[RJ]

The appeal was rejected for the following reason;

"It is the responsibility of the rail user to ensure that sufficient PAYG funds are held on their card before travelling. As explained above, the PAYG option only applies to the National Rail routes within the London Travelcard area.

I note that on this occasion sufficient funds were not available on the Oyster Card. I must advise that in line with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and the Penalty Fare Rules, I am unable to uphold this appeal.

Any complaint with regard to the conduct of the Authorised Collector or the penalty fare scheme needs to be directed to the Train Operating Company."

I sent them evidence of having £5.40 at the start of the journey, as well as official fares from the TfL/National Rail sites, usage statements and also highlight that the RPI put incorrect details in the Penalty Fare slip.

 

[transportphoto]

You also said that you had a travelcard loaded on your oyster - which failed.

If this was valid for the journey you undertook then this is a point you could make.

 

[yorkie]

You only need enough credit for the journey(s) you are making, not for what the badly-programmed system thinks you should pay because it fails to handle OSIs well enough!

I do hope you fight this and win. They'll be banking on most people giving up and not giving them a fight - that's why the conditions are so bad for us, because they know that most of the time they can treat us like crap and most people won't push it and will drop it.

The TOCs misuse and abuse the Penalty Fare system to unfairly penalise legitimate passengers. This is just one example out of many.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You also said that you had a travelcard loaded on your oyster - which failed.

If this was valid for the journey you undertook then this is a point you could make.

I don't think they'll take any notice of that. This is an example of why the Oyster system is flawed, but they won't acknowledge that. They'll say it's the customers responsibility to ensure that the Travelcard loaded correctly.

The TOCs do not want accept their respionsibilities!

 

[MikeWh]

Have you managed to resolve the issue as far as your Oystercard is concerned? I.e. Did you have a negative balance and did this get cleared when you next topped up? If the answer is yes to both questions then the penalty fare must be invalid because you actually paid the fare eventually on the card.

 

[charlesn132]

I've never had that problem using the TVM's at Forest Hill. Unlike most of the ELL extension stations, FOH didn't get new TVM's and is using existing equipment inherited from Southern.

Incidentally, you can use the ticket office to top-up your Oyster Card.

It accepts normal Oysters but not my child one. Sometimes they do but not all the time.

Now it works!

 

[RJ]

Have you managed to resolve the issue as far as your Oystercard is concerned? I.e. Did you have a negative balance and did this get cleared when you next topped up? If the answer is yes to both questions then the penalty fare must be invalid because you actually paid the fare eventually on the card.

I started the day with £5.40. Was only charged a £4.30 entry charge for an uncompleted single journey so ended up with £1.10.

You only need enough credit for the journey(s) you are making, not for what the badly-programmed system thinks you should pay because it fails to handle OSIs well enough!

I do hope you fight this and win. They'll be banking on most people giving up and not giving them a fight - that's why the conditions are so bad for us, because they know that most of the time they can treat us like crap and most people won't push it and will drop it.

The TOCs misuse and abuse the Penalty Fare system to unfairly penalise legitimate passengers. This is just one example out of many.

Oh, I will be fighting it, to the end.

 

[b0b]

What's the next step? is it to call the Oyster helpline and have the journey charged correctly. Surely at that point, you can submit that as evidence that you had enough credit to cover your fare.

 

[RJ]

I've just rung them up and had that done, they confirmed I *should* have been charged £5.10 for those journeys, leaving me with 30p after touching out at Liverpool Street. Clearly the appeals board didn't even bother doing that. Guess I'll be contacting a number of public bodies and figures who can help me now.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's not quite that straightforward. Usually an OSI would be used to continue a journey that is vaguely going in the same direction, or at least where there is not a more direct route. In this specific example the user has doubled back after making an extension that wouldn't be part of a Forest Hill to Liverpool Street journey. However, further looking at the specifics raises a new twist.

The journey started in Z3, moved into Z2, back out to Z3, then through Z2 and into Z1. That makes it a five zone journey which should be allowed to take 110 minutes on Monday to Friday daytimes. However, as described above it only actually took 103 minutes. It therefore looks like it has ignored the fact that it went back out to Z3 and treated it as a straightforward three zone journey, maximum 90 minutes. Is this a reasonable thing to do? What I don't yet know is whether the Oyster card remembers every detail about that day's journey(s) or whether it just keeps track of the start, any route validation and the last touch out if a potential OSI, for the current journey. It obviously knows how much has been spent and when so it can apply the correct cap. The central system clearly knows everything, but does the individual reader at the point that the card hovers over it? Can any London based RPIs confirm what they can tell when they read a card with a MOVie?

I believe that a Zone 1 - 3 should have a 100 minute time limit, it looks like I was unlucky that I missed this by three minutes. It appears that where an OSI has been performed, the card will only charge the for the direct route between origin and ultimate destination, not taking into account any intermediate actions. The only "rule" seems to be that the card will assume you travelled via Zone 1 if feasible, which is why route validators have become necessary.

When checked on a London Underground ticket machine, it showed something like this;

11:22 Forest Hill - Manor Park £0.00
12:03 Forest Hill - Wanstead Park £0.00
12:47 Forest Hill - Uncompleted £4.30

The times are when I touched in at Forest Hill, Woodgrange Park and Forest Gate respectively.

Anyway, I called TfL on Sunday, they've fixed the card so I've now been correctly charged £3.10 for Forest Hill - Wanstead Park and £2.00 Forest Gate - Liverpool Street. Given that the IAS rejected my appeal on the basis that I did not have enough PAYG credit, I am skeptical as to whether they actually had any correspondence with TfL to see what the journey *should have* cost .

 

[MikeWh]

3 zone maximum journey time is 90 minutes M-F before 1900, 100 minutes after 1900 and on Saturdays and 110 minutes on Sundays.

Presumably you now have some documentary evidence that TfL have adjusted your card? That should be enough to ask again to have the penalty fare refunded, especially as your card had enough credit anyway. It might be worth telling them that if they still refuse to refund the penalty then you'll see them in court.

 

[RJ]

I thought that prior to 19:00 M-F, 90 minutes is given for journeys wholly within Zone 1, Zone 2, Zones 1 & 2 and Zones 2 & 3 plus 10 minutes for each additional zone travelled through? If the journey doesn't involve Zones 1 or 2 then it should be 90 minutes.

Every journey has its own maximum journey time, regardless of the route taken. This is linked to the day, time of day travelled and the number of zone boundaries crossed.

The first bit is true, the second is slightly less reliable. I figure the following happened, though no one single statement I have seen will give this much detail;

* Start at Forest Hill with £5.40
- Touched in at Forest Hill at 11:22, £4.30 deducted (balance £1.10)
- Touched out at Manor Park, £1.60 refunded (balance £2.70)
- Touched in at Woodgrange Park at 12:03 (balance £2.70)
- Touched out at Wanstead Park, 40p deducted (balance £2.30)
- Touched in at Forest Gate (balance £2.30)
- Touched out at Liverpool Street at 13:05. Card decides journey from Forest Hill - Liverpool Street was not completed, so £4.30 charged with no refund (balance £1.10). Card starts a new journey at Liverpool Street but rejects card as there is not enough credit.

I've been trying to get a statement with this much detail from the Oyster Helpline, but what they've sent me (twice) has a lot of things missing. Currently trying to get something with more detail... Next time I'm at work, I'll use the MOVie to see exactly what it says.

Excellent website btw, I'm enthused to see somebody else who's interested in the intricacies of the Oyster system. I've had my fare share of unexpected tribulations and glad to see I'm not alone. For example, I made a journey from Pontoon Dock to Euston (via Bank). I spent 45 minutes out of the system at Euston before going to Clapham Junction via Willesden Junction. Correctly charged up until Euston LU, touched in at Euston NR ok but bizarrely the card treated it as one journey and rejected my exit at Clapham Junction due to exceeding the time limit. What a nuisance it can be sometimes.

I also carry two Oyster cards sometimes ;

Zip Card;
Free travel on buses
Half adult rate season Travelcards
Half adult rate on LU, DLR and NR services which parallel TfL rail services (New Cross Gate - West Croydon/Crystal Palace is an interesting phenomenon, it has to charge the discount even if I use a Southern service)
Adult rate daily cap
Adult rate on NR services where PAYG wasn't accepted before 02/01/10
Attempting to load a Railcard to get a lower daily cap causes it to throw up bizarre error messages and random codes on buses/ticket barriers

YP Adult Card;
33% discount on the PAYG fare off peak on all services
£5 daily cap after 10:00 (so sometimes I use the other card before this time)
More expensive than the Zip Card on LU/DLR
Full rate cap if used before 10:00

So each has its advantages and disadvantages. If I know I'll be travelling early a lot during the week, I'll buy a Z1-6 7 Day TC for £23.80 on the Zip Card so it becomes fully derestricted.

 

[swt_passenger]

... I spent 45 minutes out of the system at Euston before going to Clapham Junction via Willesden Junction. Correctly charged up until Euston LU, touched in at Euston NR ok but bizarrely the card treated it as one journey and rejected my exit at Clapham Junction due to exceeding the time limit. What a nuisance it can be sometimes.

The OSI interchange time at Euston LU to Euston NR is supposed to be 40 mins - seems the typical value for LU TO NR at any major terminus, but only in that direction. It's apparently to allow for the extra time waiting on the concourse for the lower frequency of onward NR services. Maybe the times used by the two separate gatelines aren't accurate enough?

 

[MikeWh]

I thought that prior to 19:00 M-F, 90 minutes is given for journeys wholly within Zone 1, Zone 2, Zones 1 & 2 and Zones 2 & 3 plus 10 minutes for each additional zone travelled through? If the journey doesn't involve Zones 1 or 2 then it should be 90 minutes.

The first bit is true, the second is slightly less reliable.

I took the info for the table on my site from this tfl page. The extra time is allowed in zones 1 and 2 because of the ability to make longer journeys in those zones. As soon as you need 3 zones you go to the lower table where coincidentally the time for 3 zones is the same as the extended central options.

I figure the following happened, though no one single statement I have seen will give this much detail;

* Start at Forest Hill with £5.40
- Touched in at Forest Hill at 11:22, £4.30 deducted (balance £1.10)
- Touched out at Manor Park, £1.60 refunded (balance £2.70)
- Touched in at Woodgrange Park at 12:03 (balance £2.70)
- Touched out at Wanstead Park, 40p deducted (balance £2.30)
- Touched in at Forest Gate (balance £2.30)
- Touched out at Liverpool Street at 13:05. Card decides journey from Forest Hill - Liverpool Street was not completed, so £4.30 charged with no refund (balance £1.10). Card starts a new journey at Liverpool Street but rejects card as there is not enough credit.

I've been trying to get a statement with this much detail from the Oyster Helpline, but what they've sent me (twice) has a lot of things missing. Currently trying to get something with more detail... Next time I'm at work, I'll use the MOVie to see exactly what it says.

You should be able to get that much detail from journey history, but only if you've purchased credit from Oyster online. The other statement option doesn't go into as much detail. The helpline ought to be able to see the detail, but only if you get an operative that knows what they are doing. I was once told exactly which gate numbers I'd used at London Bridge, but other requests for that much detail have met with "I can't do that" type responses. You will need to act fast though if you're going to get that detail as I don't think they keep it anywhere after 8 weeks.

Excellent website btw, ...

Thanks. It's still a work in progress. I have too many ideas and not enough time at the moment.