Pending prosecution

[andy1202]

The OP should pay £99 and chalk it up to experience. They’ve handled everything wrongly so far including a speculative attempt at legal pettifogging when they are in fact in the wrong, by not paying the full fare at the first and proper opportunity. That’s all really.

I would rather not be insulted by you on this forum thank you. This should be an inclusive place far all without fear of insult or detriment. If you don't agree surg a point of view you can raise the issue logically and sensibly rather than personal insults

 

[Master29]

Really? Can you give any examples?

Personally, on occasions where I have been unable to buy before travelling I have actively sought out the guard. Precisely to remove any suggestion of evading the fare.

Precisely. That shouldn't have been difficult given the OP claims to have boarded at Penryn which is normally a 2 car 150. Now saying he only changed his plan when the Guard and RPI man approached. A very convoluted story of events. Seriously, just accept the advice and chalk up to experience.

 

[andy1202]

Precisely. That shouldn't have been difficult given the OP claims to have boarded at Penryn which is normally a 2 car 150. Now saying he only changed his plan when the Guard and RPI man approached. A very convoluted story of events. Seriously, just accept the advice and chalk up to experience.

Didn't board at Penryn boarded at Redruth. The charge is wrong. Detailed that above.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Didn't board at Penryn boarded at Redruth. The charge is wrong. Detailed that above.

Yes, but the reason it is wrong is because you told them your incorrect origin station, therefore trying to use the fact they have charged you with non-payment of the incorrect fare to get off with it when you told them Penryn isn't much of a defence.

 

[Haywain]

Prosecuting authority has an obligation to retain cctv yet they delete it before laying a charge. An abuse of process.

If it has been deleted it cannot be submitted as evidence. I doubt it is crucial to the prosecution case. If you feel it was crucial to a defence you should have requested it rather than assume it would be presented to the court.

 

[6Gman]

Didn't board at Penryn boarded at Redruth. The charge is wrong. Detailed that above.

Convoluted, cctv would clearly clear me as seeking a method of payment before I had contact with the guard.

Prosecuting authority has an obligation to retain cctv yet they delete it before laying a charge. An abuse of process.

This is why so many people get convicted or have to settle because they destroy relevent material.
I wanted to stand up for all the wrongs I've seen them do over the years but all most on here want to do is say your own fault, pay the fine.

Well next time somebody stuck, remember you can buy a ticket at your destination, I have that in writing from the prosecution.

And if you need to travel further than your ticket on the last train of the day im sorry but you need to get off and sleep in the station till next day.
Between getting on the train, and arriving at truro is about 9 minutes, take a phone call in that time half way through and you are at truro before even looking to find a guard for another ticket.

Surely all that CCTV would show would be you looking in your pockets/ bag. Could be for any purpose. Certainly wouldn't provide evidence that you were actively trying to sort out your ticketing issue.

 

[andy1202]

Why would I say Penryn when it is more expensive and why then has the rpi put in his statement Falmouth. I was in a panic looking for my card saying I had it when I left when he said where did you set it from this morning. At that point I thought he was trying to help not stitch me up. But it seems that however I put it you are all of the opinion that no matter what I'd your plan changes coming into a station you should find a guard at that moment and stop him from performing his duties at the doors and seek me a ticket before we leave our get off the train and hope there is another. And another train there always isn't

Surely all that CCTV would show would be you looking in your pockets/ bag. Could be for any purpose. Certainly wouldn't provide evidence that you were actively trying to sort out your ticketing issue.

His body cam would clearly show the conversation and my actions of getting to pay him from the point of first meeting. The camera he references in his statement

 

[Bertie the bus]

Why would I say Penryn when it is more expensive and why then has the rpi put in his statement Falmouth. I was in a panic looking for my card saying I had it when I left when he said where did you set it from this morning. At that point I thought he was trying to help not stitch me up. But it seems that however I put it you are all of the opinion that no matter what I'd your plan changes coming into a station you should find a guard at that moment and stop him from performing his duties at the doors and seek me a ticket before we leave our get off the train and hope there is another. And another train there always isn't

I have no idea why you would say Penryn but that is exactly what you stated you did say. If a ticket inspector on a train asks where you started your journey it should be obvious they are asking you at which railway station. They are not asking for the address of your mate's house where you slept last night. They weren't trying to stitch you up. They were trying to establish where you had travelled from and you said Penryn.

 

[skyhigh]

Well next time somebody stuck, remember you can buy a ticket at your destination, I have that in writing from the prosecution.

Incidentally in the email The prosecutions manager sent me he says this

"You could have purchased a ticket from St Austell station for the journey you had just made before exiting the station."

Without context that comment is meaningless. Would you like to share the full email you got, with personal details redacted?

but all most on here want to do is say your own fault, pay the fine.

Surely this should speak volumes. In this area impartial practical advice is shared. If someone is being wrongly prosecuted, has a way of getting off or needs help advice is provided. Here - literally nobody has told you that you're in the right and should fight this. Maybe you should consider why this is.

If you're looking for someone to ignore the facts and your actions, tell you "you're in the right, you should fight this and you'll easily beat the big bad nasty company" - you are in the wrong place. We are trying to help. Realistically the best option is pay the £99, chalk it up to experience and move on. If you turn up in court with the attitude you are showing here it will not go well for you. That is the simple truth.

 

[andy1202]

I have no idea why you would say Penryn but that is exactly what you stated you did say. If a ticket inspector on a train asks where you started your journey it should be obvious they are asking you at which railway station. They are not asking for the address of your mate's house where you slept last night. They weren't trying to stitch you up. They were trying to establish where you had travelled from and you said Penryn.

And had he said where did you stay your train journey today I would have said Redruth.
In my panic and wondering where my card was being asked where did you set out from I was mentally retracing my steps where I had my card. English language can have different meanings in how a statement is asked and in what context. Be clear from his cctv

 

[JBuchananGB]

The offence has been committed of travelling between Truro and St. Austell without a valid ticket.
Only two options available here
(a) pay £99 by 28th October. Case closed
(b) attend court on 7th November, present case at court. Outcome predictable as "guilty", with fine and costs etc.

 

[Master29]

Didn't board at Penryn boarded at Redruth. The charge is wrong. Detailed that above.

Convoluted, cctv would clearly clear me as seeking a method of payment before I had contact with the guard.

Prosecuting authority has an obligation to retain cctv yet they delete it before laying a charge. An abuse of process.

This is why so many people get convicted or have to settle because they destroy relevent material.
I wanted to stand up for all the wrongs I've seen them do over the years but all most on here want to do is say your own fault, pay the fine.

Well next time somebody stuck, remember you can buy a ticket at your destination, I have that in writing from the prosecution.

And if you need to travel further than your ticket on the last train of the day im sorry but you need to get off and sleep in the station till next day.
Between getting on the train, and arriving at truro is about 9 minutes, take a phone call in that time half way through and you are at truro before even looking to find a guard for another tick

Your story itself has become convoluted. I am not trying to belittle you here but see how this would look in court. The story of why others get convicted is irrelevant and whether or not you may or may not have been ripped off by a guard in full view of an RPI is another sailed ship as you didn't deal with it at the time. The legal system may seem harsh to you but rather than fight this now you are better off paying this and perhaps dealing with the wrongs as you see them afterwards. You will find things will get significantly worse in court as it stands. Please try and understand people here are giving you the best advice of what to do at the moment.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The offence has been committed of travelling between Truro and St. Austell without a valid ticket.
Only two options available here
(a) pay £99 by 28th October. Case closed
(b) attend court on 7th November, present case at court. Outcome predictable as "guilty", with fine and costs etc.

@andy1202. You are perfectly entitled to disregard the advice that has been given on here and so have your day in court and argue your case.

However, what @JBuchananGB has just posted upthread in post #41, would seem to be reasonable advice, i.e. opting for option A.

If you do decide, however, to opt for option B, you may consider it appropriate to having suitable legal representation.

Whatever you do decide to do, please feel free to come back on here and let us know just how you have got on.

Good luck!

 

[AlterEgo]

I would rather not be insulted by you on this forum thank you. This should be an inclusive place far all without fear of insult or detriment. If you don't agree with a point of view you can raise the issue logically and sensibly rather than personal insults and obstinate I am off Limited mind

It’s a very sober appraisal of your situation. None of here are qualified to give you legal advice but we are able to let you know how your case looks.

You have handled it poorly, having not asked for assistance until now and having not ventured to get a grip on your mail for several months after the incident. As you say, the time for settlement had already passed (though I note they are actually still offering you the chance to settle out of court). In addition, regardless of what you feel the truth to be, a court has to decide your intent based on your actions.

The rather lame attempts to bring up a £1 theft and then attempting, for not especially good reasons, to have the case heard elsewhere, aren't wise. GWR are, as I said, the most pragmatic and easy to deal with company on the railways and they basically always settle. Hence, it might be worth a little introspection to consider why, out of character for them, they are deciding to pursue you, and whether your actions and the way you have handled this so far might have contributed to that.

I'm afraid that the consensus in this thread is your actions would invite a court to consider you intended to evade the fare, and hence you should settle.

As multiple people have advised, you are best off paying the £99 to avoid an unpleasant time at the magistrates' court where reality is likely to make uncomfortable contact with your ego. I regret that if you post in this area of the forum asking for advice people are bound to give it bluntly and clearly and it is not a place to come to feel validated.

 

[Master29]

I know this is an aside but does the OP say anywhere that the TM who took the money from him offered him a ticket. Surely that would have been what should have happened whether it was a penalty fare or the fare between stations. Can I ask the OP if this happened at all?

 

[GadgetMan]

I know this is an aside but does the OP say anywhere that the TM who took the money from him offered him a ticket. Surely that would have been what should have happened whether it was a penalty fare or the fare between stations. Can I ask the OP if this happened at all?

Apparently the OP was £1 short. Another passenger gave them a £1. The TM then stole this £1 and walked off, leaving the passenger a £1 short of the fare again.

 

[Master29]

Apparently the OP was £1 short. Another passenger gave them a £1. The TM then stole this £1 and walked off, leaving the passenger a £1 short of the fare again.

I know this but wanted to ask if he had been offered a ticket. The OP may well have known there were ticket barriers at both Truro and St Austell which begs the question as to why he didn't ask for a ticket if the TM walked off. Anyway, the above point is hearsay at the moment.

 

[andy1202]

I know this is an aside but does the OP say anywhere that the TM who took the money from him offered him a ticket. Surely that would have been what should have happened whether it was a penalty fare or the fare between stations. Can I ask the OP if this happened at all?

I had asked for a ticket and asked how much it was when I couldn't find my card and began getting cash to pay for i it. They told me the price, by the time I found enough change and offered it to them he took a pound from me and proceeded with regular the interview for prosecution. No offer of a penalty fare.

 

[Master29]

I had asked for a ticket and asked how much it was when I couldn't find my card and began getting cash to pay for i it. They told me the price, by the time I found enough change and offered it to them he took a pound from me and proceeded with the interview for prosecution. No offer of a penalty fare. I asked for a ticket from truro to st austell having in my possession a ticket valid to Truro. This was the first time I saw a member of staff and began getting my card to buy a ticket at truro before they approached me

Despite taking this from me I put my coat on and found more change and offered it to the revenue inspector again.

So now you are saying you were interviewed the first time you were confronted. This is why we are confused with your story. As I have said you just need to pay up and put it down to experience. The extra one pound wouldn't have been yours anyway, just an act of decency from someone else.

 

[andy1202]

So now you are saying you were interviewed the first time you were confronted. This is why we are confused with your story. As I have said you just need to pay up and put it down to experience. The extra one pound wouldn't have been yours anyway, just an act of decency from someone else.

I'm sorry, she purchased a chocolate bar from me for the retail price regardless I had enough on me as it turned out, you were asking about when he took it from me which if you follow the events was just before St austell, when I offered the cash. And interview may be the wrong word he asked for my name after the money was taken. The interview was conducted after leaving the train on St austell platform when I again tried to give him the correct money.

 

[furlong]

If an inspector refuses to accept payment and proceeds with an interview, that implies they consider that an offence might ALREADY have been committed. Selling the ticket afterwards can't undo something that occurred previously. If you don't settle, meaning you're willing to take the risk of having to pay a lot more if you lose and perhaps for you some principle is the most important thing, then I would suggest investing in a good defence solicitor able to understand and navigate around the various technicalities that might be involved here (e.g. placement of the alleged offence on the timeline of events possibly made more difficult by the deletion of evidence which never looks good, potentially calling witnesses to fill the gaps, perhaps attempting to make the prosecution more trouble than it's worth).

 

[glasgowniteowl]

Worth pointing out, that by your timeline etc, that at the point where you of offered cash, it looks like you may have already committed an offence by that point and as such you had no right so to insist that they sold you a ticket, they had the right to decide what route to go down ie prosecution, penalty fare or new ticket, that is down to their discretion at that point

 

[Puffing Devil]

I'm going to be very direct.

Reading this thread and the way @andy1202 has presented this case and their handling to date will not lead to a good outcome in court. Pleading Not Guilty and keeping quiet will be a minimum of £160 in fines and costs. Choosing to speak and bringing up irrelevant or inadmissible points will not endear them to the court. Running a trial in this manner is doomed to failure with additional costs of over £600.

Settling now for £99 and walking away without a criminal record appears to be the best outcome and I would be running banging on the door of GWR with cash in hand.

 

[L401CJF]

I've been having a read through the thread and decided to put in my thoughts. This is based entirely on what I've read here.

It sounds like they gave you chance to pay for a ticket at the time, and perhaps you took too long to find a method of payment - it may have looked as if you were trying it on. By the time you found the cash they'd already decided to go down a different route. Perhaps you failed the "attitude test" fot whatever reason - but obviously we can't comment on this so don't take it personally!

If I'm reading it right when asked where you started the journey you gave a different place to that on your ticket for whatever reason. I'm not familiar with the area but perhaps it looked as if you were travelling from A-D but only had a ticket from B-C?

Again, don't take this personally, I'm just trying to paint a picture based on what's been posted - we weren't there so can only make guesses.

Regarding the theft of the £1, its a bit late to bring this up now and if you did, I doubt would affect your outcome if you decide to go to court. If it was me personally, I would have reported this immediately as it happened. The railway takes "fiddling" cash very seriously.

Personally I would opt for the settlement offered and pay it asap. That will be that and you needn't worry about it again. If it goes to court it'll end up costing you a lot more.

Once that's out the way you can look at complaining about the theft of the £1 but like I said, its probably a bit too late to deal with now.

If in a similar position in future actively seek out the guard before the point where your ticket is valid to. Don't be afraid to knock on the cab door or speak to them on the platform. If you arnt comfortable doing this, you can always buy a ticket on a mobile app for the rest of the journey. Just make sure you do it before the station your original ticket is valid to.

Good luck with whichever route you decide to take!

 

[6Gman]

I'm going to be very direct.

Reading this thread and the way @andy1202 has presented this case and their handling to date will not lead to a good outcome in court. Pleading Not Guilty and keeping quiet will be a minimum of £160 in fines and costs. Choosing to speak and bringing up irrelevant or inadmissible points will not endear them to the court. Running a trial in this manner is doomed to failure with additional costs of over £600.

Settling now for £99 and walking away without a criminal record appears to be the best outcome and I would be running banging on the door of GWR with cash in hand.

Indeed.

From my (limited) experience of magistrates courts if the OP addresses the court in the way they have addressed this thread there is unlikely to be a happy ending.

The court will simply want to know: "Was a valid ticket held between Truro and St Austell?"

And the answer is "No."

And talk of bags, pockets, bank cards, chocolate bars or pound coins that may or may not have been purloined would be irrelevant.

 

[skyhigh]

And talk of bags, pockets, bank cards, chocolate bars or pound coins that may or may not have been purloined would be irrelevant.

More like actively harmful. I note the post has been deleted but the OP mentioned the cash they had was spread across 14 pockets with ripped linings meaning realistically it could have been anywhere. No bank card and cash spread all across their belongings/bags and having to swap a Galaxy bar for a pound coin is hardly common behaviour for someone looking to pay their fare.

 

[AlterEgo]

The OP has now deleted their posts and one assumes we won’t hear from them again. I do hope they settle, for their own sake.

 

[Haywain]

The OP has now deleted their posts and one assumes we won’t hear from them again. I do hope they settle, for their own sake.

Not getting the answers they wanted, I guess. Mods should put them back, but probably not worth the thread continuing now.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

The OP has now deleted their posts and one assumes we won’t hear from them again.

Maybe we will! Probably didn't quite get the feedback they were hoping for. Reckon they were looking for some loophole / technicality to get out of the situation that they had gotten into. From the convoluted "story" that was drip fed to us upthread and which has now mostly been redacted, this wasn't really ever likely to happen.

 

[andy1202]

More like actively harmful. I note the post has been deleted but the OP mentioned the cash they had was spread across 14 pockets with ripped linings meaning realistically it could have been anywhere. No bank card and cash spread all across their belongings/bags and having to swap a Galaxy bar for a pound coin is hardly common behaviour for someone looking to pay their fare.

she noticed my chocolate bar upon getting in the train at truro and said she'd love some chocolate when i stood to speak to the guatd as he walked towards us at truri station before departing, she commenced the transaction not I by offering a quid to satisfy uer hunger. But it is irrelevant.

The cash was upon my person. Given the anxiety and panic attack I was under at losing my card, aggravated by ptsd my mental ability to coordinate my search was not as a normal person may do. I'm afraid we are not all of good mental health or physical health. I would love to plan properly, talk properly, behave properly , but my brain doesn't work like that. And the medication doesn't always help as the side effects often appear dazed.
There is too little training in mental health issues and people are always quick to judge actions based on their own lives rather than Steppng into the shoes of the person to view through their eyes.

I felt under attack by two staff at the side of my seat watching me go through my belongings as I panicked about losing my card and the atached anxiety. I then searched for money for them all this after asking for a ticket and how much and stating that I needed to go further.

It may seem something must people would be at ease with but to me in that moment, it was a highly disconcerting experience. Scared, panic, clumsiness(dyspraxia) frightened,, fear. Two staff intently watching. A lost card. Crisis.

I previously wrote mental health in a post and how disorganised I am. It seeks to have slipped by. Money to me as in cash Is unimpotant. It goes in a pocket, a bag, lining of my coat wherever, so I've always got a bit of change on me. Wallet, don't have one, keep losing them as I'm a klutz. Change purse, same issue.

My travel cards, disabled passes and now my bank card are kept round my neck in a card holder as so frightened of something like this happening again.

Deleted posts on advice as informed these are read by rail companies.