Photography Issues at London Bridge, but its fine if you are dressed up like Batman.

[shredder1]

Photography Issues at London Bridge.

I alighted at London Bridge station on Sunday 23rd April 2017, the day of the London Marathon, I took a photograph of the train I`d arrived on and also the station sign when one of the platform staff came up to me and asked had I just taken a photograph, I said yes, he said I`m sorry sir but you are not allowed to take photographs on the station? He was polite enough and I asked him where he had got this information from and he told me it was policy. I explained the guidance to enthusiasts and photographers and how we are welcome at railway stations, but he didn’t appear to understand this or what I was telling him, I said I signed in last time I was at London Bridge, but he just repeated that photography was not allowed, so I asked him to take me to his manager, which he did so.

His manager a little Asian lad repeated what the platform staff member had told me and I again repeated to him the guidance and told him I was happy to sign in, he also kept repeating himself, so I asked to see his manager. The second manager came also and said they had a policy, which was not available to the general public, which seemed a bit strange, when I explained the guidance to him he said I`ll take you also to the office to sign in, no sooner had he said this then the little Asian guy said he had told me to sign in to his manager, he lied and I told him so, to which his manager said he is an experienced member of staff (experienced in lying I presume).

This had gone on for about 20 minutes and in the end I said forget it lads; I walked to the bay platforms and took a few photographs of a 319 in there, which is all I`d got off for anyway. The annoying thing was, was that it was the day of the London Marathon and the likes of Superman and Spiderman et al were snapping away on mobile phones on the platforms and no one said a dickybird. Maybe I should have gone along as Batman; the staff at London Bridge possibly have a fear of superheroes.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I've tweeted this to Nigel Harris of Rail Magazine and he has very quickly responded with this:

https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/857140512574377984

Will someone senior @networkrail remind staff that company guidelines WELCOME hobbyist lensmen at stations and photography is NOT banned.

It is worth noting that Network Rail run a photography competition called "Daily Pick" on Twitter which actively encourages photography of the national network.

 

[mikemcniven]

What does need to be remembered is that guidelines also state you have to check in with station staff to make them aware of your presence. It does also state though that staff should tell you why they are not happy for you to do photography.

Ideally you shouldn't just turn up at the station and start doing photography, when ever I go to a station I pop into the ticket office, or with Piccadilly reception and sign in and alert them to what I am doing.

Piccadilly I had to register, watch a short 5 minute safety video to sign in, I can not just sign in, get given iD showing I have signed in, then had the iD back to sign out.

http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travelling_safely/rail_enthusiasts.aspx

From BTP:

Before you enter the platform
Please speak to a member of station staff when you arrive so they are aware of your presence and what you are doing.
Please be aware of your surroundings. We kindly ask you to take note of any unusual behaviour and activities and report anything suspicious to us or a member of staff.

On the station platforms
You may sometimes be asked to move to another part of the station or to leave the station altogether for safety reasons. Station staff should be happy to explain the reason for this. If you are travelling by train they may ask you to stay in the normal waiting areas with other passengers. Please follow their instructions.

and the same on National Rail
National Rail: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/51952.aspx

 

[Darandio]

His manager a little Asian lad

Not sure of the relevance of this?

Despite the incorrect responses from staff, the guidelines are pretty clear about not rocking up and doing as you please, regardless of how little harm people believe it causes.

 

[Kgroves1]

Dear Shredder,

My apologies for your experience at London Bridge on Sunday. Network rail absolutely allows photography at stations - I should know as I wrote the policy a decade ago!

We'd ask you not to use flashes on platforms and to not use tripods in busty areas, but other than that, knock yourself out.

I've been in touch with the SM at London Bridge and he'll be rebriefing his staff and I've sent a note to all the SMs to ensure they learn from this experience an don't make the same mistakes.

Hope you had a great day in London anyway.

Take care.

Kevin Groves
Head of Media
Network Rail

 

[alexdodds]

Im wondering where do you sign in at London Bridge now a days.

 

[Deepgreen]

Photography Issues at London Bridge.

I alighted at London Bridge station on Sunday 23rd April 2017, the day of the London Marathon, I took a photograph of the train I`d arrived on and also the station sign when one of the platform staff came up to me and asked had I just taken a photograph, I said yes, he said I`m sorry sir but you are not allowed to take photographs on the station? He was polite enough and I asked him where he had got this information from and he told me it was policy. I explained the guidance to enthusiasts and photographers and how we are welcome at railway stations, but he didn’t appear to understand this or what I was telling him, I said I signed in last time I was at London Bridge, but he just repeated that photography was not allowed, so I asked him to take me to his manager, which he did so.

His manager a little Asian lad repeated what the platform staff member had told me and I again repeated to him the guidance and told him I was happy to sign in, he also kept repeating himself, so I asked to see his manager. The second manager came also and said they had a policy, which was not available to the general public, which seemed a bit strange, when I explained the guidance to him he said I`ll take you also to the office to sign in, no sooner had he said this then the little Asian guy said he had told me to sign in to his manager, he lied and I told him so, to which his manager said he is an experienced member of staff (experienced in lying I presume).

This had gone on for about 20 minutes and in the end I said forget it lads; I walked to the bay platforms and took a few photographs of a 319 in there, which is all I`d got off for anyway. The annoying thing was, was that it was the day of the London Marathon and the likes of Superman and Spiderman et al were snapping away on mobile phones on the platforms and no one said a dickybird. Maybe I should have gone along as Batman; the staff at London Bridge possibly have a fear of superheroes.

No matter what your claim, you've ruined it with this irrelevant racial statement!

I haven't had an issue like this for ages, now, but my immediate response nowadays would be to ask them to call the BTP and see what their attitude is. If they would be willing to waste police time, they should be willing to publicise the so-called policy. If they decline to call them, I would threaten to myself (and would do so if the harassment continued). It shouldn't take long to get officers to London Bridge.

 

[Deepgreen]

Not sure of the relevance of this?

Despite the incorrect responses from staff, the guidelines are pretty clear about not rocking up and doing as you please, regardless of how little harm people believe it causes.

Utterly ludicrous - 99% of people carry phones with cameras and can shoot away to their hearts' content. Completely unenforceable, and with no benefit/avoided disbenefit to anyone if it is enforced. Bleating about security issues just doesn't wash.

 

[Deepgreen]

Dear Shredder,

My apologies for your experience at London Bridge on Sunday. Network rail absolutely allows photography at stations - I should know as I wrote the policy a decade ago!

We'd ask you not to use flashes on platforms and to not use tripods in busty areas, but other than that, knock yourself out.

I've been in touch with the SM at London Bridge and he'll be rebriefing his staff and I've sent a note to all the SMs to ensure they learn from this experience an don't make the same mistakes.

Hope you had a great day in London anyway.

Take care.

Kevin Groves
Head of Media
Network Rail

Assuming this is a joke - this is an area where one might need steadying!

 

[Darandio]

Utterly ludicrous - 99% of people carry phones with cameras and can shoot away to their hearts' content. Completely unenforceable, and with no benefit/avoided disbenefit to anyone if it is enforced. Bleating about security issues just doesn't wash.

I'm not saying anything about security, I also agree that it's hardly crime of the century.

What I am saying is that those who like to partake in rail photography tend to bleat on about the guidelines when challenged, yet quite often haven't followed the guidelines in the first place.

 

[shredder1]

I've tweeted this to Nigel Harris of Rail Magazine and he has very quickly responded with this:

https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/857140512574377984



It is worth noting that Network Rail run a photography competition called "Daily Pick" on Twitter which actively encourages photography of the national network.

Thanks Peter, good stuff.

 

[shredder1]

No matter what your claim, you've ruined it with this irrelevant racial statement!

I haven't had an issue like this for ages, now, but my immediate response nowadays would be to ask them to call the BTP and see what their attitude is. If they would be willing to waste police time, they should be willing to publicise the so-called policy. If they decline to call them, I would threaten to myself (and would do so if the harassment continued). It shouldn't take long to get officers to London Bridge.

Racist, what rubbish, Its a simple description, I have Asians in the family, I`m certainly no racist, but I`m afraid I don`t like blatant lies, its that that ruined it. I do appreciate your response though, so thanks for that.

 

[shredder1]

Assuming this is a joke - this is an area where one might need steadying!

Hahaha, brilliant

 

[shredder1]

I'm not saying anything about security, I also agree that it's hardly crime of the century.

What I am saying is that those who like to partake in rail photography tend to bleat on about the guidelines when challenged, yet quite often haven't followed the guidelines in the first place.

I don`t have an issue with the guidelines, I`m fine signing in, what I do have an issue with is being told photography is not allowed when it clearly is, and also ignoring people snapping away on phones, it was the day of the London Marathon for goodness sake

 

[shredder1]

What does need to be remembered is that guidelines also state you have to check in with station staff to make them aware of your presence. It does also state though that staff should tell you why they are not happy for you to do photography.

Ideally you shouldn't just turn up at the station and start doing photography, when ever I go to a station I pop into the ticket office, or with Piccadilly reception and sign in and alert them to what I am doing.

Piccadilly I had to register, watch a short 5 minute safety video to sign in, I can not just sign in, get given iD showing I have signed in, then had the iD back to sign out.

http://www.btp.police.uk/advice_and_information/travelling_safely/rail_enthusiasts.aspx

From BTP:




and the same on National Rail
National Rail: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/51952.aspx

I don`t think the marathon snappers had read the guidance for enthusiasts, so maybe marathon participants don`t have to check in with station staff to make them aware of their presence, I really must get the Batman suit out next time I`m down

 

[shredder1]

Dear Shredder,

My apologies for your experience at London Bridge on Sunday. Network rail absolutely allows photography at stations - I should know as I wrote the policy a decade ago!

We'd ask you not to use flashes on platforms and to not use tripods in busty areas, but other than that, knock yourself out.

I've been in touch with the SM at London Bridge and he'll be rebriefing his staff and I've sent a note to all the SMs to ensure they learn from this experience an don't make the same mistakes.

Hope you had a great day in London anyway.

Take care.

Kevin Groves
Head of Media
Network Rail

I`m going to write back and thank him and ask him if he could kindly direct me to the busty areas

 

[mikemcniven]

I don`t think the marathon snappers had read the guidance for enthusiasts, so maybe marathon participants don`t have to check in with station staff to make them aware of their presence, I really must get the Batman suit out next time I`m down

But there is a difference between passing through the station and doing photos around the station

 

[DaleCooper]

Racist, what rubbish, Its a simple description, I have Asians in the family, I`m certainly no racist, but I`m afraid I don`t like blatant lies, its that that ruined it. I do appreciate your response though, so thanks for that.

I didn't see any description of the other two people who were involved. Why not?

 

[shredder1]

But there is a difference between passing through the station and doing photos around the station

I was passing through, I simply got off to photograph a 319 in the bay platforms, I was however pulled as soon as I got off the train and snapped the train I`d arrive on, so it wouldnt have been known if I was "doing photos around the station" if that`s was what you mean.

 

[shredder1]

I didn't see any description of the other two people who were involved. Why not?

Mainly because they didnt lie to me, I`m not great at being lied too, must be a character flaw I have, but if its helpful Dale the first gentleman that approached me appeared to be of African decent, and the final manager was a tall thin white gentleman, all three would be in their 20`s or 30`s, is that alright Dale?

 

[DaleCooper]

Mainly because they didnt lie to me, I`m not great at being lied too, must be a character flaw I have, but if its helpful Dale the first gentleman that approached me appeared to be of African decent, and the final manager was a tall thin white gentleman, all three would be in their 20`s or 30`s, is that alright Dale?

I don't see why the fact he lied necessitated a physical description which added nothing to the narrative. It told us nothing about the individual as Asia, in case you didn't know, is an enormous and diverse continent.

 

[shredder1]

When I originally posted the thread it was based on a direct experience which I thought might make others aware of a situation and issue at a railway station, I thought it might be helpful to alert fellow site members to potential problems while taking photographs, something a lot of us do within the hobby. One or two members however have been a little nit picky and I do appreciate we do have a few children on site, in future though I won`t report or warn of any issues of this nature. I really don`t know why I bother at times, I won`t in the future :roll:.

On a personal note Dale, I`m of Irish Italian decent, I`ve been married 3 times and I have an Asian brother in law, a Spanish brother in law my present girlfriend is a quarter cast American Native Indian, my son lives with a Turkish Girl and I have a Rwandan grandchild, "enormous and diverse continent", tell me about it.

 

[DarloRich]

I have never had a problem at any station and i have never signed in - maybe it is because i dont look like a spotter

 

[yorkie]

I don't think the marathon snappers had read the guidance for enthusiasts, so maybe marathon participants don't have to check in with station staff to make them aware of their presence, I really must get the Batman suit out next time I'm down

The guidelines are for rail enthusiasts, not for people taking photos. They appear to be worded from the point of view of someone who arrives by another form of transport and will be hanging around the station for a long time without taking a train.

If you are taking photos while changing trains then you don't have to admit to being an enthusiast but if you're there for ages taking photos of trains, it may be problematical to argue they don't apply.

It's a grey area.

 

[shredder1]

I have never had a problem at any station and i have never signed in - maybe it is because i dont look like a spotter

I`m not sure what a spotter looks like these days, I hung the anorak up years ago and tried to model myself off Jimmy Page

 

[shredder1]

The guidelines are for rail enthusiasts, not for people taking photos. They appear to be worded from the point of view of someone who arrives by another form of transport and will be hanging around the station for a long time without taking a train.

If you are taking photos while changing trains then you don't have to admit to being an enthusiast but if you're there for ages taking photos of trains, it may be problematical to argue they don't apply.

It's a grey area.

Yes very true Yorkie.

 

[infobleep]

I was once told I couldn't take photos at Portsmouth and Southsea. I think I needed permission from the manager.

What I did was as follows. I boarded my train and then photographed the station clock for its time, so I could adjust the times on my photos as the time was out.

The man on the platform try to grab my attention whilst I was doing hits. I played it as if I didn't know what he was on about. After all he was outside the train and I was inside it by a window. I only wanted one photo. He then came on board the train to explain what he was on about.

Even the guard wasn't aware of the so called policy.

The up shot of this? I got the actual photograph I had wanted and the train left over a minute late. It would have been on time had he not boarded to explain things.

 

[Deepgreen]

Racist, what rubbish, Its a simple description, I have Asians in the family, I`m certainly no racist, but I`m afraid I don`t like blatant lies, its that that ruined it. I do appreciate your response though, so thanks for that.

I didn't say "racist", I said "racial" - there is a world of difference.

The only person you decided to identify by race was Asian ("a little Asian lad") - why? Why did you not give visual descriptions of the other people involved? Given this, don't be surprised if people wonder why you chose to pick out one individual based on his ethnicity.

 

[Robin Edwards]

without me trawling through the policies and links others have provided, can someone point out what exactly is the security risk is using cameras on the railways?

My days as an enthusiast mainly hark from the past where there were far fewer fences to be photographed (cynical point here from a cynical old git!) and maybe when the security risks were not on same scale as they are today?

I once had a gun pointed at me whilst I tried to sneak a photo of the diesel about to haul my train in China and decided at that point that he was right and I was just being silly. For what it's worth but of absolutely no relevance whatsoever, the man with the gun had a uniform and he was a short asian fellow. I'll get me coat now.....

 

[Deepgreen]

without me trawling through the policies and links others have provided, can someone point out what exactly is the security risk is using cameras on the railways?

My days as an enthusiast mainly hark from the past where there were far fewer fences to be photographed (cynical point here from a cynical old git!) and maybe when the security risks were not on same scale as they are today?

I once had a gun pointed at me whilst I tried to sneak a photo of the diesel about to haul my train in China and decided at that point that he was right and I was just being silly. For what it's worth but of absolutely no relevance whatsoever, the man with the gun had a uniform and he was a short asian fellow. I'll get me coat now.....

The answer is; none worth any concern from those who should have far better things to do. Enthusiasts in general and photographers in particular are supposedly welcomed by the railway. To be required to sign in at a station just to take photos is a nonsense fostered by alarmist and baseless security concerns, or by a totally mis-directed suspicion of people who are interested in the railway:

1. If the intention is to track terrorists, I can be fairly sure that such people will not follow this rule. If terrorists really require to obtain pictures of trains or stations to plan attacks, there are countless sources available to them. Mobile phones' cameras are so good that a plethora of pictures can be gathered in passing without resorting to open displays of photography.

2. If the intention is to prevent people hanging around platform ends, as long as they remain in the public area; why? Why not challenge passengers who choose to stand at platform ends and who may not board the first train to call there? The overwhelming majority of enthusiasts know how the railway works well enough to avoid interfering with anything they shouldn't and also to be aware of something being wrong when others may not be (including many railway security personnel!).

3. If the intention is to safeguard against commercial filming, etc., it doesn't take a genius to differentiate between a film crew and a photographer. Even if the odd photo is used 'commercially' - so what?

The whole issue of enthusiasts and their place on the railway has been inflated to ridiculous proportions. The last place that someone who is intent on nefarious activities on the railway would choose to carry them out is at a station by using a camera openly! Common sense appears to have been supplanted by today's all-too-common sweeping generalisation about 'security'. In short, railway photography is harmless (and can be helpful), but is far too often challenged for no good reason. It is also a common enough occurrence that it should not be seen as suspicious/unusual behaviour by railway personnel.