I am not sure if this has been discussed before, but why do Piccadilly line drivers approach/enter stations (on the whole), at a considerably slower pace compared to other lines? I understand ATO lines are difficult to compare to as they will always approach at the max speed possible, but comparing this with other manually driven lines e.g. Most of the Met and all of the Bakerloo, it's noticeable that the 73 stock pulls in quite gently. For a fair comparison, as I know the S stock is much newer, the 72 stock (even older), rushes in most of the time like there is no tomorrow!
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Piccadilly line - Slow approach to stations
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bramling
Veteran Member
The real answer is simply the line as a whole has lost its confidence. For a time they had the stigma of being the worst performing railway in the country for SPADs. This becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy as once a few drivers slow down it essentially slows everyone down. And it doesn’t really deal with the SPADs problem as it just creates more red signals to hit.
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
Are you referring to the way the train slows down and then accelerates again between Terminals 2 & 3 and Terminal 5? I always assumed that was something to do with crossing the junction there with the line from Terminal 4, although I could be wrong.
Terminal 5 has signalling configured where the train’s speed must be maintained at or below a certain limit in order for the signal to clear. This is to protect the overlap on the shunt signal into the sidings.
The line from T4 doesn’t cross the line toward T5 on the level, it, like most junctions on Tube lines is grade separated.
lxfe_mxtterz
Member
Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
Thinking about it again, it may have been between Hatton Cross and Terminals 2 & 3 where the train slows down and then accelerates again, as I very rarely ever continued onto Terminal 5.
I'm sure I read somewhere that some tube stations are built on an incline up to the station to help trains slow down, then an incline away from the station to aid acceleration. In this way, trains can approach stations quicker; given that a lot of the Piccadilly is out in the open, maybe this is not the case on this line.
bramling
Veteran Member
Most of the Picc Line tube stations are built in this way, but there are exceptions.
I’m still minded to think the main issue on the line is culture though. Remember this is the line where management were calling BTP on the drivers a few years ago claiming they were deliberately flatting the wheels.
15mph on that signal into the platform (and the one half way down the platform too) .
A speed controlled signal protects the crossover to the east of Terminal 2&3, 20mph iirc.
I can think of Finsbury Park eastbound as being this way, but not many of the other 50+ stations.
I generally come into the platforms around 30mph, but to be honest, much faster and you risk not being able to stop as the braking capacity varies so much on each train (and sometimes each end of the same train!)
Also, if I drive too fast, there is so much time in the timetable I would just be sitting at the regulation points for a couple or three minutes, which is tedious for everyone. I suppose some enterprising soul could compare timetables from ages ago with the current timetable to see if there is more running time these days?
(As a slight aside, the 'leaf fall timetable' is coming in on 2nd Oct and last year that afforded us a generous 12 minutes from Cockfosters to Arnos, and 30mph from North Ealing to Rayners Lane, so trains will feel exceptionally slow until January 2024.)
Edited to add:
The Piccadilly is essentially a training line for the whole combine - almost nobody wants to work on the line due to the toxic environment that management encourage. So we have a disproportionate amount of 'new' drivers - most of whom are already on the transfer list to any other depot. (It is fascinating to see the length of the waiting lists for each depot - and how long a person waits after nominating - some lines/depots have people who nominated in 2017! No so the Piccadilly, if you nominate for virtually any depot, you will have a very quick response.)
So, new drivers are naturally more cautious and it's often said it takes 2 years to get to know the line properly - the majority of new drivers will be off before that if they can. And so the cycle begins again.
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My recollection as a punter is that the trains used to accelerate and brake harder and run faster between stations (I'm talking 10-20 years ago or more). They really do seem very slow.
Has frequency also reduced in recent years?
southern442
Established Member
How bad are the 73TS at the moment? In my opinion from a passenger perspective they are visually ok and it's weird to think that they are closer in age to the almost heritage railway-esque 72TS than the rest of the fleet (probably due to the excellent mid-noughties referb) but I would hazard a guess and say that mechanically they are probably a lot worse for wear?
bramling
Veteran Member
Not sure what their actual condition is, however it’s worth adding that the 73 stock was always a better train than the 72 stock, right from day one.
Much as we all love them for their charm, the 72 stock has always been regarded as a bit of a handful from a driver’s perspective. Old-hand Northern Line drivers still tell tales such as “with a 59 stock it was either a good train or a bad one but least you know where you stood, with the 72 stock it was all over the place, it might be behaving perfectly well then suddenly you’d come into a station and the brakes wouldn’t do much or it would surge forward at the last minute”. The Bakerloo units seem to have been maintained a bit better and have been refined over the years, but they still have their quirks. By contrast the 73 stock is a lot more refined.
I’d also add a possibly controversial opinion that some drivers don’t drive these older trains in the way they were intended to be driven. Again those who drove the 72 stock on the Northern will generally say that they responded best to having maximum service braking thrown in and then taken off as required, whereas nowadays it seems many instructors teach the opposite, and indeed LU seems to hint the same way. With all these 1970s-era trains tending to have more dubious braking than the generations which came both before and after them, I’m not convinced this is entirely sound practice. Better to get halfway down a platform and find the train is stopping a bit short than reach the same point and find it’s not stopping, then increase the brake and find nothing happens - and of course same applies when approaching a red signal.
southern442
Established Member
I have noticed more recently that, as others have mentioned, Bakerloo drivers do seem to be a bit more ballsy, and they (from purely observation) seem to be given a bit more welly than the 73 stock on the picc.
bramling
Veteran Member
The Bakerloo is a bit less of a transit camp, I’d imagine partly because the line is regarded as being a bit more difficult than the Picc Line due to the more complex stock (*) and the need to learn NR rules & procedures. Also the line isn’t seen to be as toxic from an ER perspective.
Arguably the Bakerloo hasn’t quite had the SPAD stigma that the Picc has had at times. Partly no doubt because there are simply fewer signals to hit (though they certainly have their favourites!), and not as many trains running to hit them.
I guess this whole thread could be summed up by saying that LU’s train operations aren’t very well managed, and this seems to show more on the Piccadilly because ATO masks it on many of the other lines. The Bakerloo seems to have managed to avoid this to some extent as they are a more difficult line so this has kept some of the rot away.
(* whilst the 72 stock is only slightly older, they are a fair bit more complex to learn than the 73 stock, not least by the amount of mods bolted on to them over the years often in quite crude ways).
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From 2013 to the current timetable, there are many small differences related to the fact that times used to be to the half minute and are now to the quarter minute. The only anomaly I can see seems to be Alperton to Ealing Common (eastbound only) which has changed from 6.5 to 7.25 (westbound it has stayed fixed at 6.5). But I haven't looked in great detail.
I'm not sure if there has been any significant mechanical adjustments made to the 73 stock - there are some ex fitters on the forum so maybe they can chip in at some point.
I did a quick look online for old WTTs. A peak time Cockfosters to T4 journey is actually quicker today (by 1 minute) than 2017, taking 1hr 26m today. Would be good to know about earlier timetables.
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Sad Sprinter
Established Member
The trains pass the express section in West London incredibly slowly. I assumed it was something to do with a train close in front, but sometimes there could be a five minute gap of Piccadilly trains in Chiswick and one still comes crawling through. I remember visiting Turnham Green in the year 2000 as a child and watching the Piccadilly trains fly through the station so fast I thought it was a mainline railway. A waste of infrastructure if you ask me
Agree it seems much slower these days, with trains driven cautiously and the express section seeming anything but - used to love being bumped around on it as a kid.
The other thing that is very noticeable is the gaps in service on the central section of the line, especially eastbound. I don‘t get why because when coming from Heathrow trains seem to be regulated at Acton, but 7-8 min plus gaps in the centre seem normal now followed by 1 min, 2 min, 3 min. And in the evenings the overcrowding with tourists can be terrible.
Overall its fascinating to read from the informed inside comments above that its not just perception that its a badly run line, but the reality
The other thing that is very noticeable is the gaps in service on the central section of the line, especially eastbound. I don‘t get why because when coming from Heathrow trains seem to be regulated at Acton, but 7-8 min plus gaps in the centre seem normal now followed by 1 min, 2 min, 3 min. And in the evenings the overcrowding with tourists can be terrible.
Overall its fascinating to read from the informed inside comments above that its not just perception that its a badly run line, but the reality
southern442
Established Member
Is this likely to improve in any way when the 24 stock come in?
Dstock7080
Established Member
No, as the drivers will still be cautious and the signals are not moving locations, only adding co-acting signals for sighting issues.
13 minute gap behind me today!
Potentially yes - if the braking system is more predictable and consistent. I expect the acceleration will be greater too. So there may be room for some improvement. (Of course, if they under-resource the depots to the same extent, the trains won't leave the depot as now.)
Re: signalling. As you say, 600 new co-acting signals, not a new signalling system!
I'm sure it will become clear to me one day, but who designed a train where the original signals are obscured, but the hooded ones can be seen?
(Picture shows existing signals and hooded co-acting signals in very close proximity.)
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