Pick-up only destination - what grounds to prevent me using

[AndyCommuter]

I know that a certain train leaves London Euston and stops at Milton Keynes during peak-time, but that the stop is an un-announced pick-up only. Presumably there is some contract in place that Virgin do not provide a peak-time service for this route. The virgin staff go to great lengths to try and prevent me getting on this train. I have a peak time season ticket for the route. On what grounds can the virgin staff stop me using this service?

 

[PHILIPE]

I know that a certain train leaves London Euston and stops at Milton Keynes during peak-time, but that the stop is an un-announced pick-up only. Presumably there is some contract in place that Virgin do not provide a peak-time service for this route. The virgin staff go to great lengths to try and prevent me getting on this train. I have a peak time season ticket for the route. On what grounds can the virgin staff stop me using this service?

This applies to Reading also, and is designed to prevent short journey passengers who have other trains available, from using the train to allow accomodation for longer distance passengers. Where does your train go to ? I'm sure that if you were travelling a long distance you wouldn' t like to have to stand with local passengers filling seats. Sorry, but this is the reality but must welcome you to the Forum.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that a certain train leaves London Euston and stops at Milton Keynes during peak-time, but that the stop is an un-announced pick-up only. Presumably there is some contract in place that Virgin do not provide a peak-time service for this route. The virgin staff go to great lengths to try and prevent me getting on this train. I have a peak time season ticket for the route. On what grounds can the virgin staff stop me using this service?

The reason it is done is to stop hordes of MKC commuters crowding out people travelling longer distances and possibly even preventing them boarding. I am in complete support of this (and was even when I commuted from MKC). Use the highly frequent LNR services instead.

The basis to prevent you using it is that it is not timetabled to set down passengers at MKC, therefore no ticket to MKC is valid on it.

 

[Darandio]

On what grounds can the virgin staff stop me using this service?

Because your ticket isn't valid.

 

[Kite159]

Because it calls there to pick up passengers only, if you managed to board and the train manager checked tickets before Milton Keynes you may be liable for whatever the fare is to the first public call is (i.e. Nuneaton/Coventry/Stoke)

 

[AndyCommuter]

Because your ticket isn't valid.

Why isn't my ticket valid? How can you argue that? And if I'm on the train on what basis could you say I have to pay more? I'm looking more for the terms and conditions that specifically address this.

 

[Darandio]

You have a season ticket from Milton Keynes to London Euston, yes? As far as the railway is concerned the train doesn't call at Milton Keynes after leaving London Euston so the ticket isn't valid. That is my understanding of the situation anyway, i'm sure others have a more in depth explanation.

 

[Ken H]

his happens all over. The 0655 skipton -KX train is pick up only at Keighley and Shipley.
leeds KX early morning trains were puck up only at wakefield westgate

 

[gazthomas]

I am guessing this is the 16.10 to North Wales. It does not stop to set down in MK. If it is this train then the first advertised stop is Crewe

 

[NSEFAN]

Why isn't my ticket valid? How can you argue that? And if I'm on the train on what basis could you say I have to pay more? I'm looking more for the terms and conditions that specifically address this case.

The train is not scheduled to set down passengers there. Therefore a ticket is not valid from Euston to there on that train. Technically its the same reason why you couldn't use a ticket to MKC which doesn't stop there at all.

A physical stop at station and a booked pick up/set down are not the same things.

 

[AndrewE]

Because your ticket isn't valid.

Why isn't my ticket valid? How can you argue that? And if I'm on the train on what basis could you say I have to pay more? I'm looking more for the terms and conditions that specifically address this case.

What don't you understand in those 5 or 6 words? If the timetable says "U" then you can't use that train to alight there. That train is for long-distance travellers (who are probably paying considerably more per mile than you are) who may not be able to physically get on in London if MK commuters hog all the space.
It's a long-established response to exactly this problem and used to be far more common. I would like to see a lot more of it too - with vigorous enforcement.

 

[6Gman]

Your ticket is valid on a service between your starting point and your destination. This train is not a service between your starting point and your destination. It is (e.g.) a service between Euston and Crewe; it is a service between MKC and Crewe. It is not a service between Euston and MKC.

It's really that simple.

 

[EM2]

Why isn't my ticket valid? How can you argue that? And if I'm on the train on what basis could you say I have to pay more? I'm looking more for the terms and conditions that specifically address this.

Because the train is not advertised as stopping at Milton Keynes, and the timetable states that it stops to pick up ONLY.
From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

13. The routes you may use
13.1. Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
13.1.1. any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;

This train is not a direct train service between the stations shown on your Ticket.

 

[Class83]

It's a grey area and in a lot of places hard to enforce where barriers cover all platforms and will let a ticket which is valid in general through. With the separate platforms at Euston it's obviously easier to enforce, if you get on and they charge you to the next stop you can hardly complain.

I'm sympathetic to the ToCs using uplift only restrictions where the express train is full length, less so when it's 2/3 car and the problem would disappear if they used a suitable sized train. Also, there are pretty frequent fast trains from Euston to Milton Keynes which set down as well.

 

[NSEFAN]

It's a grey area and in a lot of places hard to enforce where barriers cover all platforms and will let a ticket which is valid in general through. With the separate platforms at Euston it's obviously easier to enforce, if you get on and they charge you to the next stop you can hardly complain.

I'm sympathetic to the ToCs using uplift only restrictions where the express train is full length, less so when it's 2/3 car and the problem would disappear if they used a suitable sized train. Also, there are pretty frequent fast trains from Euston to Milton Keynes which set down as well.

Being able to get away with it an being a grey area are surely different things?

 

[ComUtoR]

Being able to get away with it an being a grey area are surely different things?

Are you suggesting a 'pay when challenged' approach ?

 

[jon0844]

It's not a grey area. It's a not valid area. Getting away with it before doesn't change anything.

It's always fun when GWR occasionally skip Reading and over carry people who shouldn't have been on the train anyway!

 

[Class83]

Being able to get away with it an being a grey area are surely different things?

Probably, it's a long time since I've done so and in that case I asked the guard before boarding, he was fine as the train wasn't busy. Though, I wish a ToC well arguing in court that a train that goes directly between two stations isn't a direct train.

If you had a ticket to the first booked set down stop, of a type which permits break of journey, would that be valid to the uplift station?

 

[NSEFAN]

Are you suggesting a 'pay when challenged' approach ?

Not suggesting that, just clarifying that it's not a gray area. In practice there are times when you could avoid being caught, if there are no revenue checks, which isn't the same as an unclear legal position (i.e. a gray area). Unfortunately, a lack of enforcement can create a culture of pay when challenged. This is all well and good, until the chancer finds that the call to pick up is cancelled and the next stop is miles away!

 

[NSEFAN]

It's not a grey area. It's a not valid area. Getting away with it before doesn't change anything.

It's always fun when GWR occasionally skip Reading and over carry people who shouldn't have been on the train anyway!

Next stop Taunton?

 

[LowLevel]

It's not a grey area. It's a not valid area. Getting away with it before doesn't change anything.

It's always fun when GWR occasionally skip Reading and over carry people who shouldn't have been on the train anyway!

What he says. Without getting into ticketing minutiae it's not unknown for stopping patterns to change and passengers at Euston will not be told, thus landing any clever clogs who try to sneak on a very long way from home. There's form for it with a large number of Reading commuters having ended up in entirely the wrong place on several evenings.

 

[DarloRich]

I know that a certain train leaves London Euston and stops at Milton Keynes during peak-time, but that the stop is an un-announced pick-up only. Presumably there is some contract in place that Virgin do not provide a peak-time service for this route. The virgin staff go to great lengths to try and prevent me getting on this train. I have a peak time season ticket for the route. On what grounds can the virgin staff stop me using this service?

Because rules. The rules say the train doesn't stop to set down passengers therefore the ticketing rules say your ticket isn't valid. Unlucky.

Ps we are hardly short of fast trains between euston and mkc

 

[AndrewE]

It's always fun when GWR occasionally skip Reading and over carry people who shouldn't have been on the train anyway!

I'd like to see that... in fact it would be a good idea to deliberately do it sporadically on all such services (having already taken up the passengers waiting for the train) just to emphasise that the train doesn't need to stop there as it doesn't need to set down.

 

[_toommm_]

If you were caught, you'd be charged a season ticket to the first stop with which you could legitimately use the train I.e. the first stop that isn't set down only. You could even get reported for ticketless travel.

 

[NSEFAN]

Probably, it's a long time since I've done so and in that case I asked the guard before boarding, he was fine as the train wasn't busy. Though, I wish a ToC well arguing in court that a train that goes directly between two stations isn't a direct train.

If you had a ticket to the first booked set down stop, of a type which permits break of journey, would that be valid to the uplift station?

I would argue that Boj doesn't apply, as again the train does not set down there. The legal argument from the railway would be that physically stopping and being booked to let pax on and off are two seperate things.

 

[jon0844]

I'd like to see that... in fact it would be a good idea to deliberately do it sporadically on all such services (having already taken up the passengers waiting for the train) just to emphasise that the train doesn't need to stop there as it doesn't need to set down.

GWR has done it when trains are very busy or there was a delay, and announced the good news that it won't be making a stop once in motion. Obviously everyone on the train should be happy to make up a bit of time...!

 

[EM2]

Without getting into ticketing minutiae it's not unknown for stopping patterns to change and passengers at Euston will not be told, thus landing any clever clogs who try to sneak on a very long way from home.

Let's say that the train departs Euston on time. A few minutes later, the crew are informed that because of a police incident, Milton Keynes Central has been evacuated, and no services can call. The crew would have no reason to inform passengers, as there should not be anyone on board wishing to alight there.

 

[Crossover]

It's not a grey area. It's a not valid area. Getting away with it before doesn't change anything.

It's always fun when GWR occasionally skip Reading and over carry people who shouldn't have been on the train anyway!

I was going to say, presumably if the train is so wedged from Euston (in the case of the OP) then they could cut the call at Milton Keynes on the basis no-one there could get on and other arrangements made for the MKC passengers.

 

[island]

Next stop Taunton?

Exeter St. David’s on one occasion

 

[jon0844]

I was going to say, presumably if the train is so wedged from Euston (in the case of the OP) then they could cut the call at Milton Keynes on the basis no-one there could get on and other arrangements made for the MKC passengers.

Yes, which is what GWR has done before. They've had another train stop at Reading instead, or even a 'queue buster' train start from there. Thus, no need for the pick up and the regulars who filled up the long-distance service only to bail at the first 'stop' get an extra long journey!