'Pick up only' on selected weekdays - Milton Keynes - Virgin Trains (West Coast)

[All Line Rover]

Try Paddington to Reading at peak time, then you'll realise how feasible that is!
The local services are rammed, and take double the time.

This is the same situation for MK, LM services can't carry all of the MK passengers.
Why take a slow, rammed LM service, when you can take a quick VT one in half the time?

Evening peak LM services to Milton Keynes are not 'slow'. The 16:46 (trailing the 16:43 VT, which isn't 'pick up only' at MKC for some reason), the 17:13 (trailing the 17:10 VT), the 17:46 (trailing the 17:43 VT), the 18:13 (trailing the 18:10 VT) and the 18:49 (trailing the 18:43 VT, which again isn't 'pick up only' at MKC) all take 32 or 33 minutes. The VT services are timetabled to take 30 minutes but rarely achieve this is practice so the LM and VT services are in fact about equal. You can't compare Milton Keynes with Reading.

In an ideal world we would have a 125mph 12-car half-hourly service to Northampton calling at Milton Keynes only, taking 30 minutes to reach Milton Keynes, running throughout the day, and an end to the system of trying to merge two completely different commuter routes (Euston to Northampton via Milton Keynes, and Birmingham to Northampton via Coventry).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That he is allowed to, and will attempt to, does not follow that a prosecution would stand up if the passenger refused.

Has one succeeded?

Whenever I have seen a EUS to MKC passenger on a 'pick up only' train (which is virtually every such train where there has not been a manual barrier inspection at Euston), the guard has not attempted to charge the passenger.

Rather than expect guards to argue with passengers (or, alternatively, being happy to lose revenue, and allowing seats to be taken at the expense of passengers who have paid considerably more for a valid ticket), why can't Virgin ensure that there is a manual barrier inspection at Euston for every 'pick up only' train? These are all trains carrying hundreds of passengers who have typically paid £100+ each. They are entitled to expect Virgin to spend less than £100 on twenty minutes' pay for four or five ticket inspectors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Those extra bodies on short journeys turn into non-revenue empty air after Milton Keynes. The goal is to add more capacity for the higher revenue longer traveller.

Which is a weak argument in the case of the changes which are being made from May, because they apply to trains which are off-peak throughout. On the 19:20 for example, passengers travelling from Milton Keynes to Stoke-on-Trent will have paid more per-mile for their off-peak ticket than passengers travelling from Euston to Stoke-on-Trent (but have next to no chance of getting a seat): Euston to Stoke-on-Trent is £68 for 290 miles return (23p per mile), whereas Milton Keynes to Stoke-on-Trent is £53 for 192 miles return (28p per mile).

If the goal is to ensure that higher revenue passengers are prioritised, why aren't departures such as the 15:10, 15:20, 15:43, 16:20, 16:43 and 18:43 from Euston (all trains where most passengers travelling from Euston to stations beyond Milton Keynes - at least as far as Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent or Coventry, as the case may be - will hold Anytime tickets), not 'pick up only' at Milton Keynes?

 

[driver_m]

That he is allowed to, and will attempt to, does not follow that a prosecution would stand up if the passenger refused.

Has one succeeded?

I've No idea about prosecutions. The TM's make enough announcements about it, so I'd doubt many excuses would wash. To be fair I usually stick my head out at MK to have a look what's happening and usually no one gets off so people obviously do listen or are turned away at the barriers. That is a common occurrence seeing someone coming back up the ramps when a train is boarding. So people will try, but wont usually get through.

 

[Agent_c]

Evening peak LM services to Milton Keynes are not 'slow'. The 16:46 (trailing the 16:43 VT, which isn't 'pick up only' at MKC for some reason), the 17:13 (trailing the 17:10 VT), the 17:46 (trailing the 17:43 VT), the 18:13 (trailing the 18:10 VT) and the 18:49 (trailing the 18:43 VT, which again isn't 'pick up only' at MKC) all take 32 or 33 minutes. The VT services are timetabled to take 30 minutes but rarely achieve this is practice so the LM and VT services are in fact about equal. You can't compare Milton Keynes with Reading.

In an ideal world we would have a 125mph 12-car half-hourly service to Northampton calling at Milton Keynes only, taking 30 minutes to reach Milton Keynes, running throughout the day, and an end to the system of trying to merge two completely different commuter routes (Euston to Northampton via Milton Keynes, and Birmingham to Northampton via Coventry).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Whenever I have seen a EUS to MKC passenger on a 'pick up only' train (which is virtually every such train where there has not been a manual barrier inspection at Euston), the guard has not attempted to charge the passenger.

Rather than expect guards to argue with passengers (or, alternatively, being happy to lose revenue, and allowing seats to be taken at the expense of passengers who have paid considerably more for a valid ticket), why can't Virgin ensure that there is a manual barrier inspection at Euston for every 'pick up only' train? These are all trains carrying hundreds of passengers who have typically paid £100+ each. They are entitled to expect Virgin to spend less than £100 on twenty minutes' pay for four or five ticket inspectors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Which is a weak argument in the case of the changes which are being made from May, because they apply to trains which are off-peak throughout. On the 19:20 for example, passengers travelling from Milton Keynes to Stoke-on-Trent will have paid more per-mile for their off-peak ticket than passengers travelling from Euston to Stoke-on-Trent (but have next to no chance of getting a seat): Euston to Stoke-on-Trent is £68 for 290 miles return (23p per mile), whereas Milton Keynes to Stoke-on-Trent is £53 for 192 miles return (28p per mile).

If the goal is to ensure that higher revenue passengers are prioritised, why aren't departures such as the 15:10, 15:20, 15:43, 16:20, 16:43 and 18:43 from Euston (all trains where most passengers travelling from Euston to stations beyond Milton Keynes - at least as far as Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent or Coventry, as the case may be - will hold Anytime tickets), not 'pick up only' at Milton Keynes?

I'm not convinced revenue per mile is a relevant measure to the scenario presented. Presume a train will run for 10 distance units (DU) regardless of who boards, Passenger A will pay £100 to travel 1 unit, but passenger B will pay £200 to travel all 10. It makes more sense to take passenger B instead of A, if a choice must be made, because the train will travel the whole distance regardless (even though his R/DU is £20 instead of £100).

Trains don't stop when the last passenger, or even the most valuable passenger gets off, they run the entire route (incidents excepted).

 

[All Line Rover]

I mentioned above that peak LM services are fast (32/33 minutes), but off-peak services are not. The 18:13 from Euston takes 32 minutes. The 19:13 from Euston takes 42 minutes (and is overtaken by the 19:20 VT). It's remarkable that the 19:13 should be ten minutes slower when the only difference is that it calls at Leighton Buzzard (the 18:13 runs non-stop to MKC). That the 19:13 is so slow may explain why the 19:10 and 19:20 VT departures from Euston have so many Milton Keynes passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not convinced revenue per mile is a relevant measure to the scenario presented. Presume a train will run for 10 distance units (DU) regardless of who boards, Passenger A will pay £100 to travel 1 unit, but passenger B will pay £200 to travel all 10. It makes more sense to take passenger B instead of A, if a choice must be made, because the train will travel the whole distance regardless (even though his R/DU is £20 instead of £100).

Trains don't stop when the last passenger, or even the most valuable passenger gets off, they run the entire route (incidents excepted).

I agree that a balance must be struck in the sense that 100 passengers alighting at Milton Keynes being replaced by 10 passengers boarding at Milton Keynes is not ideal regardless of what the passengers boarding at Milton Keynes are paying, but at the same time: (i) if too many Milton Keynes passengers are boarding VT services at Euston, this should be addressed by improving LM services, not by restricting journey opportunities; and (ii) passengers boarding at Milton Keynes have a limited choice of journey opportunities* compared to passengers boarding at Euston, and if they struggle to get a seat (which will be the case if nobody alights at Milton Keynes), there is a legitimate cause for complaint.

*The 19:20 departure from Euston to Manchester calls at Milton Keynes at 19:50. The next train to Manchester from Milton Keynes is the 21:30 (the 21:00 from Euston) - almost two hours later.

 

[Ianno87]

I mentioned above that peak LM services are fast (32/33 minutes), but off-peak services are not. The 18:13 from Euston takes 32 minutes. The 19:13 from Euston takes 42 minutes (and is overtaken by the 19:20 VT). It's remarkable that the 19:13 should be ten minutes slower when the only difference is that it calls at Leighton Buzzard (the 18:13 runs non-stop to MKC). That the 19:13 is so slow may explain why the 19:10 and 19:20 VT departures from Euston have so many Milton Keynes passengers.

Off peak daytime, LM still have their xx46 departure from Euston taking 33 minutes, xx49 taking about 36 minutes (calling Watford) plus the xx13 taking 41 minutes (calling Leighton Buzzard and Bletchley) - the xx13 admittedly does get overtaken by the xx20 VT but otherwise forms a neat half-hourly LM 'fast' service.

 

[charley_17/7]

I've No idea about prosecutions. The TM's make enough announcements about it, so I'd doubt many excuses would wash. To be fair I usually stick my head out at MK to have a look what's happening and usually no one gets off so people obviously do listen or are turned away at the barriers. That is a common occurrence seeing someone coming back up the ramps when a train is boarding. So people will try, but wont usually get through.

I can confirm this is regularly the case, even for those with Reduced Rate seasons!

Yet travelling in the opposite direction, happy to allow boarding 'set down only' services.

Completely inconsistent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I mentioned above that peak LM services are fast (32/33 minutes), but off-peak services are not. The 18:13 from Euston takes 32 minutes. The 19:13 from Euston takes 42 minutes (and is overtaken by the 19:20 VT). It's remarkable that the 19:13 should be ten minutes slower when the only difference is that it calls at Leighton Buzzard (the 18:13 runs non-stop to MKC).

It isn't remarkable at all when you realise that to do so it needs to move from the 110mph fast lines to the 100mph slow lines at Ledburn (slowing down further for that move) then proceeds on the slows through Bletchley to MKC. A train running fast to MKC can run at 110mph nearly all the way (then into Platform 5).

 

[DarloRich]

It isn't remarkable at all when you realise that to do so it needs to move from the 110mph fast lines to the 100mph slow lines at Ledburn (slowing down further for that move) then proceeds on the slows through Bletchley to MKC. A train running fast to MKC can run at 110mph nearly all the way (then into Platform 5).

and time is often lost in that movement slowing/stopping to wait for a gap in the southbound Virgins to cross

 

[Agent_c]

I mentioned above that peak LM services are fast (32/33 minutes), but off-peak services are not. The 18:13 from Euston takes 32 minutes. The 19:13 from Euston takes 42 minutes (and is overtaken by the 19:20 VT). It's remarkable that the 19:13 should be ten minutes slower when the only difference is that it calls at Leighton Buzzard (the 18:13 runs non-stop to MKC). That the 19:13 is so slow may explain why the 19:10 and 19:20 VT departures from Euston have so many Milton Keynes passengers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I agree that a balance must be struck in the sense that 100 passengers alighting at Milton Keynes being replaced by 10 passengers boarding at Milton Keynes is not ideal regardless of what the passengers boarding at Milton Keynes are paying, but at the same time: (i) if too many Milton Keynes passengers are boarding VT services at Euston, this should be addressed by improving LM services, not by restricting journey opportunities; and (ii) passengers boarding at Milton Keynes have a limited choice of journey opportunities* compared to passengers boarding at Euston, and if they struggle to get a seat (which will be the case if nobody alights at Milton Keynes), there is a legitimate cause for complaint.

*The 19:20 departure from Euston to Manchester calls at Milton Keynes at 19:50. The next train to Manchester from Milton Keynes is the 21:30 (the 21:00 from Euston) - almost two hours later.

It's not Virgin Trains job to run LM, it's their job to run Virgin Trains and do what is right for Virgin trains. If that means turning away less revenue rich customers on a certain day to attract more revenue rewarding ones, then that's what they're supposed to do.

The Free market doesn't care what is "best" or "most fair" only what is "most profitable" (and I'll take as written arguments saying that railways aren't completely free market).

 

[All Line Rover]

It isn't remarkable at all when you realise that to do so it needs to move from the 110mph fast lines to the 100mph slow lines at Ledburn (slowing down further for that move) then proceeds on the slows through Bletchley to MKC. A train running fast to MKC can run at 110mph nearly all the way (then into Platform 5).

I see. Is there any reason why LM doesn't operate any xx:16 departures from Euston other than the 17:16 and 18:16? (And - this is off-topic - but do you know why the 17:16 and 18:16 don't call at Bletchley?)

 

[DarloRich]

It's not Virgin Trains job to run LM, it's their job to run Virgin Trains and do what is right for Virgin trains. If that means turning away less revenue rich customers on a certain day to attract more revenue rewarding ones, then that's what they're supposed to do.

The Free market doesn't care what is "best" or "most fair" only what is "most profitable" (and I'll take as written arguments saying that railways aren't completely free market).

but my counter argument is the the £5000 per annum (minimum) MKC - Euston commuter season ticket is more money than the long distance occasional travelers contribute.

 

[All Line Rover]

It's not Virgin Trains job to run LM, it's their job to run Virgin Trains and do what is right for Virgin trains. If that means turning away less revenue rich customers on a certain day to attract more revenue rewarding ones, then that's what they're supposed to do.

The Free market doesn't care what is "best" or "most fair" only what is "most profitable" (and I'll take as written arguments saying that railways aren't completely free market).

The organisation that should be striking the balance is the DfT.

 

[DarloRich]

I see. Is there any reason why LM doesn't operate any xx:16 departures from Euston other than the 17:16 and 18:16? (And - this is off-topic - but do you know why the 17:16 and 18:16 don't call at Bletchley?)

Does the Southern service to MK conflict on the slows? That service does offer an easy Bletchley connection at the Buzzard an costs but minutes

 

[All Line Rover]

but my counter argument is the the £5000 per annum (minimum) MKC - Euston commuter season ticket is more money than the long distance occasional travelers contribute.

It's more money than those travelling on the 19:07, 19:10 and 19:20 contribute, that's true. But it's substantially less than those travelling on the 17:10, 17:20, 17:43 etc. contribute, regardless of how frequently those passengers travel. I'm not sure if you are saying that EUS to MKC passengers should continue be allowed on the 19:10 and 19:20, or if they should be allowed on all VT services which call at MKC.

 

[Pumbaa]

Does the Southern service to MK conflict on the slows? That service does offer an easy Bletchley connection at the Buzzard an costs but minutes

Nope - the xx16s should shoot past the Southerns at Berkhamsted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does the Southern service to MK conflict on the slows? That service does offer an easy Bletchley connection at the Buzzard an costs but minutes

That connection is very popular - not least because it is very reliable, as not to hold the Southern for a delayed 1816 at Ledburn would knacker a good chunk of the service.

 

[All Line Rover]

Does the Southern service to MK conflict on the slows? That service does offer an easy Bletchley connection at the Buzzard an costs but minutes

Looking at the timetable, the Southern service (East Croydon to Milton Keynes) is about 7 minutes behind. That offers a degree of leeway, surely?

 

[DarloRich]

It's more money than those travelling on the 19:07, 19:10 and 19:20 contribute, that's true. But it's substantially less than those travelling on the 17:10, 17:20, 17:43 etc. contribute, regardless of how frequently those passengers travel. I'm not sure if you are saying that EUS to MKC passengers should continue be allowed on the 19:10 and 19:20, or if they should be allowed on all VT services which call at MKC.

I am saying Virgin have to make a choice about which money they want more.

Is it long distance, higher prices but less often ( I will leave the debate on figures as I don't think a couple of trips per year will outweigh £5000 per person per year) OR fixed price commuters.

if the former remove all MK ( and Rugby) stops and concentrate on your longer distance passengers OR remove ticket restrictions on MK passengers. I will point out that this option throws everybody onto the already crowded LM trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Looking at the timetable, the Southern service (East Croydon to Milton Keynes) is about 7 minutes behind. That offers a degree of leeway, surely?

I think Ledburn and congestion there is the issue. The 17/18:16 must get across the fasts and onto the slow and stop at LB before the Southern catches up.

The connection at LB (For Bletchley) off these trains works really well.

 

[Pumbaa]

I see. Is there any reason why LM doesn't operate any xx:16 departures from Euston other than the 17:16 and 18:16? (And - this is off-topic - but do you know why the 17:16 and 18:16 don't call at Bletchley?)

They are highly time sensitive and expensive. Very little leeway by the time they've come over at Ledburn Jn. The xx20 Manchester is right up its arse.

They'll only run them where they need to in order to meet capacity requirements.

 

[All Line Rover]

I am saying Virgin have to make a choice about which money they want more.

Is it long distance, higher prices but less often ( I will leave the debate on figures as I don't think a couple of trips per year will outweigh £5000 per person per year) OR fixed price commuters.

if the former remove all MK ( and Rugby) stops and concentrate on your longer distance passengers OR remove ticket restrictions on MK passengers. I will point out that this option throws everybody onto the already crowded LM trains.

It is, however, worth remembering that almost all VT services to Rugby terminate at Birmingham, and the fare to Rugby is almost as high as the fare to Birmingham. Even if an entire train alighted at Rugby, Virgin wouldn't care as it would still be a highly profitable service.

 

[DarloRich]

It is, however, worth remembering that almost all VT services to Rugby terminate at Birmingham, and the fare to Rugby is almost as high as the fare to Birmingham. Even if an entire train alighted at Rugby, Virgin wouldn't care as it would still be a highly profitable service.

A Rugby - Euston season is £5600 ( minimum) yet a Birmingham - London season is only £40 more!

 

[All Line Rover]

A Rugby - Euston season is £5600 ( minimum) yet a Birmingham - London season is only £40 more!

That's the 'LM only' one. Must be a lovely commute!

 

[DarloRich]

That's the 'LM only' one. Must be a lovely commute!

Indeed - but someone must be doing it! I used the base price for a fare ( ) comparison.

 

[All Line Rover]

They are highly time sensitive and expensive. Very little leeway by the time they've come over at Ledburn Jn. The xx20 Manchester is right up its arse.

They'll only run them where they need to in order to meet capacity requirements.

This might be a stupid question, but how can the xx:16 LM interfere with the xx:20 VT if the xx:16 is using the slow line and the xx:20 is using the fast line?

EDIT: I think I understand you as saying that the xx:16 could interfere with the xx:20 as far as Leighton Buzzard, but not that the xx:16 could not call at Bletchley. Couldn't the xx:16 use the slow line throughout?

 

[DarloRich]

This might be a stupid question, but how can the xx:16 LM interfere with the xx:20 VT if the xx:16 is using the slow line and the xx:20 is using the fast line?

it is the conflict at Ledburn. The XX16 runs fast to that point and must get out of the way and on to the slows or the XX20 is delayed as it is right up the LM's trumpet at that point! Often the LM train is slowed considerably waiting to cross which must impact on those services behind.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Nuneaton should be an important interchange station between the north west and Leicester & the east. But it isn't as it is so difficult to get to Nuneaton from Manchester, Liverpool or North Wales. Very few Virgin trains stop and LM trains only run to Crewe with a long detour via Stoke.

I must admit I get really annoyed when travelling on business from Euston to Chester on short 5-car sets & find the small first class section full of MK commuters. They won't even serve us with food & alcohol till the MK people get off. MK used to be, of course, a useful interchange for Gatwick Airport until Southern curtailed the service at East Croydon with no thought to passengers encumbered with luggage.

 

[DarloRich]

Nuneaton should be an important interchange station between the north west and Leicester & the east. But it isn't as it is so difficult to get to Nuneaton from Manchester, Liverpool or North Wales. Very few Virgin trains stop and LM trains only run to Crewe with a long detour via Stoke.

I must admit I get really annoyed when travelling on business from Euston to Chester on short 5-car sets & find the small first class section full of MK commuters. They won't even serve us with food & alcohol till the MK people get off. MK used to be, of course, a useful interchange for Gatwick Airport until Southern curtailed the service at East Croydon with no thought to passengers encumbered with luggage.

i mean god forbid they might have paid a first class fare. It must be awful for you having to share! Imagine having to wait 30 minutes for your free food. Terrible. Meanwhile in cattle we are packed in like sardines.

I am also unsure if MK was ever a useful connection for Gatwick!

 

[All Line Rover]

Couldn't the xx:16 use the slow line throughout?

I'll answer my own question. Not without interfering with the PITA xx:04 Tring stopper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nuneaton should be an important interchange station between the north west and Leicester & the east. But it isn't as it is so difficult to get to Nuneaton from Manchester, Liverpool or North Wales. Very few Virgin trains stop and LM trains only run to Crewe with a long detour via Stoke.

Nuneaton would be perfectly well served if the LM service ran fast to Crewe (it would only take around 15 minutes longer than a non-stop VT service, while benefiting Tamworth, Lichfield, Rugeley and Stafford), instead of taking the meandering detour via Stoke-on-Trent which the short-sighted DfT imposed because it was terrified that passengers at Crewe might vote with their feet and go for the better value service (which is really odd considering that the vast, vast majority of passengers on the xx:40 - even the 19:40 - travel beyond Crewe to Wilmslow/Stockport/Manchester).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I must admit I get really annoyed when travelling on business from Euston to Chester on short 5-car sets & find the small first class section full of MK commuters. They won't even serve us with food & alcohol till the MK people get off. MK used to be, of course, a useful interchange for Gatwick Airport until Southern curtailed the service at East Croydon with no thought to passengers encumbered with luggage.

The operative word being "small". And the fact that Virgin's first class hosts are somehow incapable of checking passengers' tickets is not the fault of Milton Keynes passengers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nuneaton should be an important interchange station between the north west and Leicester & the east. But it isn't as it is so difficult to get to Nuneaton from Manchester, Liverpool or North Wales. Very few Virgin trains stop and LM trains only run to Crewe with a long detour via Stoke.

I must admit I get really annoyed when travelling on business from Euston to Chester on short 5-car sets & find the small first class section full of MK commuters. They won't even serve us with food & alcohol till the MK people get off. MK used to be, of course, a useful interchange for Gatwick Airport until Southern curtailed the service at East Croydon with no thought to passengers encumbered with luggage.

You will wheel said luggage far further at Gatwick than you would at Clapham Jn or East Croydon. A non-issue.

 

[HowardGWR]

We had these discussions about Paddington to Reading and Waterloo to Basingstoke.

Surely, if trains are simply id'd in the timetable as 'not available to...' and backed up with announcements (and barrier checks where feasible) the errant pax would be simply in danger of excess fares and the problem would cease, except for the usual few adventurers.