Pines Express diverted via Oxford & Southampton instead of the S&DJ

[2192]

When the Pines Express (Liverpool & Manchester to Bournemouth) was diverted via Oxford & Southampton in about 1962, it clearly would be easier to operate, as it was now fast main line all the way (except the Market Drayton line) with no difficult hills, and no single line stretches which the Somerset & Dorset Joint had some. It would have gained traffic from Oxford and Southampton, but lost it from Cheltenham and Bath. Was it any quicker?

 

[hexagon789]

Was it any quicker?

September 1961 LMR timetable (Via Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bath):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10.30am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.32pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.45am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.10pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.02pm


September 1962 LMR timetable (Via Birmingham, Leamington and Oxford):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.18pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.35am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.17pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.11pm

 

[2192]

September 1961 LMR timetable (Via Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bath):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10.30am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.32pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.45am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.10pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.02pm


September 1962 LMR timetable (Via Birmingham, Leamington and Oxford):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.18pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.35am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.17pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.11pm

Thanks, Hexagon -- it clearly became slightly slower, but not by much. 2192

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks, Hexagon -- it clearly became slightly slower, but not by much. 2192

I presume the distance was greater, as the route would be easier via Oxford I would've thought.

 

[Western Sunset]

It's sometimes forgotten that the "Pines" had a Sheffield (Mid) portion., whilst there was another service from B'mth to Sheffield via Oxford and the GC.

 

[70014IronDuke]

September 1961 LMR timetable (Via Cheltenham, Gloucester and Bath):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10.30am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.32pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.45am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.10pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.02pm


September 1962 LMR timetable (Via Birmingham, Leamington and Oxford):
Dep. Manchester Picc. - 10am
Arr. Bournemouth W. - 5.18pm

Dep. Bournemouth W. - 9.35am
Arr. Liverpool Ex. - 5.17pm
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 5.11pm

Interesting to see these timings.

However, these were with a Bulleid pacific (or were, at least, most of the time in the 60s) from Bournemouth to Oxford.
Once a Class 47 took control of the southern section, in 1967 (I suppose, but can't remember exactly) it would have cut the timings by, at a guess, 20 -25 minutes, as long as the train continued to use the Reading West curve and avoided reversal at Reading General. I don't believe such an acceleration could not have been achieved using the S&D.

 

[hexagon789]

Interesting to see these timings.

However, these were with a Bulleid pacific (or were, at least, most of the time in the 60s) from Bournemouth to Oxford.
Once a Class 47 took control of the southern section, in 1967 (I suppose, but can't remember exactly) it would have cut the timings by, at a guess, 20 -25 minutes, as long as the train continued to use the Reading West curve and avoided reversal at Reading General. I don't believe such an acceleration could not have been achieved using the S&D.

There's no 1967 LMR timetable on Timetable World but June 1965 is available and gives the following timings:

Dep. Manchester Picc. - 1000
Dep. Liverpool Lime St. - 0945
Arr. Bournemouth West - 1655

Dep. Bournemouth West - 0957
Arr. Liverpool Lime St. - 1719
Arr. Manchester Picc. - 1705

 

[Gloster]

1966-1967:

Manchester Piccadilly. dep. 10.00
Liverpool Lime St. dep. 09.45 SX
Bournemouth Central arr. 16.44 SX/16.47 SO (continues to Poole)

Bournemouth Central dep. 10.02 SX/10.06 SO (from Poole)
Liverpool Lime St. arr. 17.11 SX
Manchester Piccadilly arr. 17.06 SX/17.19 SO - SO times 18/6-3/9 only


1967-1968 (No longer named, Saturdays only)

Manchester Piccadilly dep. 11.15
Bournemouth Central arr. 17.03/17.13/17.35 depending on date

Bournemouth Central dep. 09.53/10.20
Manchester Piccadilly arr. 15.53/16.28

 

[Magdalia]

When the Pines Express (Liverpool & Manchester to Bournemouth) was diverted via Oxford & Southampton in about 1962

The Pines Express ran via Oxford from September 1962 until March 1967. After that there were through trains between Bournemouth and Manchester/Liverpool on summer Saturdays only.

However, these were with a Bulleid pacific (or were, at least, most of the time in the 60s) from Bournemouth to Oxford.

Timetable World has the South Western Division loco diagrams for winter Saturdays 1964-65. The Pines Express is diagram 399 from Bournemouth West to Oxford and back, booked for a West Country.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks, Hexagon -- it clearly became slightly slower, but not by much. 2192

The Pines Express would have been slower still when it had to run via Shrewsbury from 1963, as the shorter Market Drayton route to Crewe closed that September.

The original Pines Express service (unnamed) was a Midland Railway train, and the Manchester portion went from Central via Matlock, Derby and Tamworth to Birmingham New St.
Under the LMS/BR that portion went from London Road via Crewe, a much quicker route.

 

[70014IronDuke]

The Pines Express ran via Oxford from September 1962 until March 1967. After that there were through trains between Bournemouth and Manchester/Liverpool on summer Saturdays only.

I hadn't realised they more or less 'killed' it in '67.

Timetable World has the South Western Division loco diagrams for winter Saturdays 1964-65. The Pines Express is diagram 399 from Bournemouth West to Oxford and back, booked for a West Country.

Yes. I saw it quite often in 63-66. It was usually a rebuilt West Country, but Spam Cans and rebuilt Merchant Navies also appeared at times, especially Summer Saturdays. I never saw anything less than a light pacific on the train until it was diagrammed for a Banbury Black 5 - I guess this may have happened with the end of the summer TT in 66 or so.

I don't think a Black 5 could maintain Bulleid pacific timings - certainly it was usually sent on the relief lines between Didcot and Reading when a Black 5 was used. And this might have caused additional problems at Reading - when it would have needed to cross all four tracks to access Reading West.

The original Pines Express service (unnamed) was a Midland Railway train, and the Manchester portion went from Central via Matlock, Derby and Tamworth to Birmingham New St.
Under the LMS/BR that portion went from London Road via Crewe, a much quicker route.

Very roundabout via Matlock. Probably saved at least an hour when routed via Stafford, I should think.

 

[Magdalia]

A key date is the closure of Oxford shed to steam at the beginning of January 1966, precluding the continued use of steam on the Pines Express, which had changed locos there.

From January 1966 to March 1967 the Pines Express was Brush Type 4s working through from Crewe to Poole and returning next day.

The Banbury Black 5s were on the York-Poole and vice versa, which changed locos at Banbury, not the Pines Express. That finished when the Great Central closed in early September 1966, and the train was diverted to run via Birmingham.

After March 1967 the 1029 Poole-York and 1008 York-Poole continued to run via Birmingham. There was also an 0847 Southampton-Birmingham and 1740 return and a 0940 Birmingham Poole and 1629 return giving 3 trains each way much more evenly spaced through the day. All of these used New Street not Snow Hill.

 

[Snow1964]

I have a book where a number of summer Saturday trains from Bournemouth were diverted for 2 or 3 years via Fordingbridge (the now closed line via Broadstone, West Moors, to Salisbury) in early 1960s.

Possibly these were extras and not the main Pines Express.

Sometime in late 1970s these summer Saturday extras were the first air conditioned stock to reach Bournemouth (as they were formed of Intercity business train stock that wasn’t used to London at weekends). Many others were formed of mk1 sets often with no train heat 47/3s

 

[Harvester]

The Banbury Black 5s were on the York-Poole and vice versa, which changed locos at Banbury, not the Pines Express. That finished when the Great Central closed in early September 1966, and the train was diverted to run via Birmingham.

The 10:30 Poole-York continued to be steam hauled after September 1966, but only between Poole and Basingstoke, where a Brush Type 4 took over. The Bulleid Pacific returned during the late afternoon on the corresponding York-Poole train (Bournemouth duty 394). This diagram ended in March 1967, not quite lasting until the end of Southern steam.

 

[30907]

I have a book where a number of summer Saturday trains from Bournemouth were diverted for 2 or 3 years via Fordingbridge (the now closed line via Broadstone, West Moors, to Salisbury) in early 1960s. Possibly these were extras and not the main Pines Express.

No, these were WR services from South Wales (and as I have mentioned on Tue Bournemouth W thread) continued further East (Swansea-Brockenhurst/New Milton-Swansea was the main train, plus reliefs) for stabling purposes and to relieve Central.

 

[Magdalia]

The 10:30 Poole-York continued to be steam hauled after September 1966, but only between Poole and Basingstoke, where a Brush Type 4 took over. The Bulleid Pacific returned during the late afternoon on the corresponding York-Poole train (Bournemouth duty 394). This diagram ended in March 1967, not quite lasting until the end of Southern steam.

Thanks. My research interest waned after September 1966!

 

[Bevan Price]

A key date is the closure of Oxford shed to steam at the beginning of January 1966, precluding the continued use of steam on the Pines Express, which had changed locos there.

From January 1966 to March 1967 the Pines Express was Brush Type 4s working through from Crewe to Poole and returning next day.

The Banbury Black 5s were on the York-Poole and vice versa, which changed locos at Banbury, not the Pines Express. That finished when the Great Central closed in early September 1966, and the train was diverted to run via Birmingham.

After March 1967 the 1029 Poole-York and 1008 York-Poole continued to run via Birmingham. There was also an 0847 Southampton-Birmingham and 1740 return and a 0940 Birmingham Poole and 1629 return giving 3 trains each way much more evenly spaced through the day. All of these used New Street not Snow Hill.

And until 1963. GW Hall Class used to work to Bournemouth on what I assume was the York/Bournemouth service.

 

[Magdalia]

And until 1963. GW Hall Class used to work to Bournemouth on what I assume was the York/Bournemouth service.

The Hall (and sometimes a Grange) on the York-Bournemouth lasted a lot longer than that, possibly right up to the closure of Oxford shed in January 1966.

The loco diagram can be found in the Timetable World South Western Division loco diagrams for winter Saturdays 1964-65. However the Bournemouth-York was a West Country see Eastleigh diagram 258.

 

[70014IronDuke]

A key date is the closure of Oxford shed to steam at the beginning of January 1966, precluding the continued use of steam on the Pines Express, which had changed locos there.

From January 1966 to March 1967 the Pines Express was Brush Type 4s working through from Crewe to Poole and returning next day.

The Banbury Black 5s were on the York-Poole and vice versa, which changed locos at Banbury, not the Pines Express. That finished when the Great Central closed in early September 1966, and the train was diverted to run via Birmingham.

After March 1967 the 1029 Poole-York and 1008 York-Poole continued to run via Birmingham. There was also an 0847 Southampton-Birmingham and 1740 return and a 0940 Birmingham Poole and 1629 return giving 3 trains each way much more evenly spaced through the day. All of these used New Street not Snow Hill.

Yes, sorry, I was mixing up the Pines and the York - Poole. But I thought the York - Poole was what ran in winter at that point, ie the Pines did not run that summer. It's a little bit of a fog now though.

The Hall (and sometimes a Grange) on the York-Bournemouth lasted a lot longer than that, possibly right up to the closure of Oxford shed in January 1966.

The loco diagram can be found in the Timetable World South Western Division loco diagrams for winter Saturdays 1964-65. However the Bournemouth-York was a West Country see Eastleigh diagram 258.

I don't think Oxford actually had a steam allocation at that point, did it?

I remember going to Oxford in late July, 1965. In terms of GWR locos, there was virtually nowt. The shed's only activity seemed to be turning Bulleids off the inter-regional trains (there were about four of those, as it was a summer Saturday).

 

[Gloster]

Walmsley gives Oxford as closing to steam in 12/65 with a fair number of main line locos remaining until then. Lyons’ 1974 book on GWR engine sheds gives it as closing in 1/67.

 

[Magdalia]

Walmsley gives Oxford as closing to steam in 12/65 with a fair number of main line locos remaining until then.

Oxford Shed closed on 03/01/66, see Railway Observer March 1966, though the locos allocated there are usually shown as withdrawn in December 1965.

On 03/01/66 specially prepared 6998 worked the Poole-York from Oxford to Banbury. The Mayoress of Oxford saw the train off from Oxford and the event was reported in the local press.

I remember going to Oxford in late July, 1965. In terms of GWR locos, there was virtually nowt. The shed's only activity seemed to be turning Bulleids off the inter-regional trains (there were about four of those, as it was a summer Saturday).

There was quite a lot of steam at Oxford on 1965 summer Saturdays. As you say there were 4 Southern workings through to Oxford and back, including the Pines Express. Traction was usually a West Country but occasionally a Merchant Navy or Standard 5. Various summer Saturday trains to/from the West Midlands were also steam hauled.

 

[Gloster]

Oxford Shed closed on 03/01/66, see Railway Observer March 1966, though the locos allocated there are usually shown as withdrawn in December 1965.

Walmsley gives the month in which the largest portion of a four-week period fell, so it does throw up a few infelicities like this. It is a compromise, but acceptable in my opinion.

 

[Taunton]

It wasn't just the Pines that was taken away from the S&D in 1962, but all the additional summer Saturday trains from the north to Bournemouth as well, and most remaining services were now run in two parts, north and south of Templecombe, arranged to connect with SR line trains, hence not with each other. There was one round trip from Bristol which skipped some stations north of Evercreech, but that was it. As well known it was an expensive service to operate, normally double-headed Bath to Evercreech, despite which it might come out of Combe Down tunnel at little more than walking pace. Also, the through freight traffic was diverted in September 1962 as well, the main user had been loads from the LMS to the Southern, keeping the revenue share out of the hands of the GWR, the necessity for which (likewise with the Pines) had disappeared with nationalisation 15 years before.

 

[30907]

...and most remaining services were now run in two parts, north and south of Templecombe, arranged to connect with SR line trains, hence not with each other. There was one round trip from Bristol which skipped some stations north of Evercreech, but that was it.

To be fair, that had been the situation for donkeys' years.
Only one local service was altered in 1962. (the one that shunted at Stalbridge to let the Pines overtake) - the other connections into and out of the Pines simply continued to run.