Plain Clothed Rail staff/contractors verification and passengers filming for their protection

[tixy]

Having seen this on YouTube, it appears at first that scam RPIs are prevalent on TFL.

When the video is played it is clear that they are ticket compliance surveyors, contracted or employed by TFL.

There is much debate around whether these surveyors should be dressed for the part as at a glance they can be mistaken for TFL RPIs in plain clothes.

This brings me to the old thread of RPIs enforcing in plain clothes. I wonder what the approach of genuine RPIs, would be if a passenger wanted to either verify in detail their ID (including examining the reverse) or to have a uniformed staff member assist in the verification of plain clothes staff.

Also, what are the views on being “politely” recorded by the passenger during the interaction, especially if cautioned. Here I mean no camera in face or provocation that you see by those auditors, but a genuine record that the passenger can take to verify against any MG11 interview.

Please note that the passenger uses an aggressive tone and some extremely fowl language which is clearly unacceptable (and illegal on the railway) so please be aware when viewing that the content may be strong or unsuitable for some viewers.

 

[Vexed]

I think those are just ticketless travel surveys so nothing untuward. They have no enforcement power.

They happen across the country and are nearly always contracted out so there wouldn't be a uniform.

Travel surveys

Read TfL's travel surveys privacy notice

tfl.gov.uk

It obviously could be someone impersonating TfL but I would say it's unlikely.

Also, views on being “politely” recorded during the interaction. Here I mean no camera in face or provocation that you see by those auditors.

As the surveyer is a main subject it would be courteous to blur their face. The man filming also seemed to speak to the camera directly so it's not really a great account of the situation - by what he was saying he was filming with the intention of sharing the video publicly instead of just for personal safety / reporting the the police.

We of course don't know what was said before the video started but at no point did the surveyor say they wanted to actually tap/handle his bank card, just see it and note it down as his payment method and move on.

 

[Scotrail84]

They had these kind of surveyors on ScotRail services recently. It's not a scam, it's a genuine survey on ticketless travel. Passenger participation is completely voluntary and they have no powers to demand to see tickets and nor can they issue tickets. The surveyors all had the appropriate ID's issued by ScotRail ass well for carrying out the surveys.

 

[AlterEgo]

Those are ticketless travel surveyors wearing ID, not scam RPIs. Lovely racist comment section on that video as well, about par for the course these days.

 

[Vexed]

Those are ticketless travel surveyors wearing ID, not scam RPIs. Lovely racist comment section on that video as well, about par for the course these days.

Yes it's vile really. Community Notes like on X would be nice to have on YouTube. Wait I'm praising X... What has the world come to!

 

[tixy]

Those are ticketless travel surveyors wearing ID, not scam RPIs. Lovely racist comment section on that video as well, about par for the course these days.

I agree here, I didn’t agree with his tone etc…

If he was approached by RPIs and took that tone, I’m sure BTP would verify them and probably deal!

It’s the first time I’ve heard of this. If it was me, I would ask to look a little closer at his ID (off video) which would state he is a surveyor. Maybe announcing that to the carriage (which may have been cut in the video) would help here. I would question as to what info he is obtaining and if it was a simple survey I would probably oblige simply by answering verbally. I definitely would not get my bank card out here but be very wary.

I wonder how this would have been dealt with if he was approached by plain clothes RPIs and the passenger politely asked for verification of who they were, either by a uniformed TFL staff member being called to verify the RPIs details or examining the RPIs warrant card closely.

 

[87electric]

Saw this when it first appeared a few months back and just dismissed the content creator being an idiot.

 

[43066]

I wonder how this would have been dealt with if he was approached by plain clothes RPIs and the passenger politely asked for verification of who they were, either by a uniformed TFL staff member being called to verify the RPIs details or examining the RPIs warrant card closely.

A few times when I’ve encountered surveyors on SE services they’re accompanied by uniformed RPIs. On the occasions they aren’t they’ve had ID clearly visible.

The guy in the video above is slurring his words and is needlessly aggressive, especially as the staff make it clear that the survey is optional!

 

[Mojo]

We of course don't know what was said before the video started but at no point did the surveyor say they wanted to actually tap/handle his bank card, just see it and note it down as his payment method and move on.

It’s worth pointing out that the surveyor is holding a Movie device which is only capable of reading Oyster cards and not contactless payment cards, so he would have no way of scanning contactless bank cards anyway.

 

[43066]

It’s worth pointing out that the surveyor is holding a Movie device which is only capable of reading Oyster cards and not contactless payment cards, so he would have no way of scanning contactless bank cards anyway.

Why do they scan the cards? Presumably it’s just to check they’ve been tapped in and gather intelligence on fare evasion?

 

[jon0844]

Why do they scan the cards? Presumably it’s just to check they’ve been tapped in and gather intelligence on fare evasion?

The ticketless survey people (contracted by the DfT at least in England) are not revenue protection (directly) or gathering evidence, but simply checking how many people do not have a ticket - which is then measured and collated to produce stats showing the percentage of ticketless passenger travel in any given area/region. In some areas it can be approaching 20%.

TOCs are presumably paid on their new contracts based on keeping below a set target, and the DfT needs to know what the actual numbers are.

They are in effect auditors, but ones actually having a purpose over pointless clout-chasing YouTubers.

 

[43066]

The ticketless survey people (contracted by the DfT at least in England) are not revenue protection (directly) or gathering evidence, but simply checking how many people do not have a ticket - which is then measured and collated to produce stats showing the percentage of ticketless passenger travel in any given area/region. In some areas it can be approaching 20%.

TOCs are presumably paid on their new contracts based on keeping below a set target, and the DfT needs to know what the actual numbers are.

They are in effect auditors, but ones actually having a purpose over pointless clout-chasing YouTubers.

They don’t scan the cards if it’s a contactless, only a Smartcard.

The purpose of ticketless travel surveys is not for intelligence on fare evasion but is used to take a snapshot of the overall figure of fare evasion. TfL modes have a target of fare evasion written into the contract with private companies; and these surveys are used to get a general picture of the percentage of fare evasion in order to measure whether MTR (in this case on the Elizabeth line) are meeting their targets.

Different modes take differing approaches, London Underground for example uses its own internal revenue staff. Obviously LU doesn’t have a contract to comply with, but it still gives management an overall picture of the likely cost of fare evasion.

Makes sense, thanks both.

As mentioned I’ve seen staff performing a similar role on SE services, so presumably that’s a form of internal audit, as SE are OLR.

 

[jon0844]

As mentioned I’ve seen staff performing a similar role on SE services, so presumably that’s a form of internal audit, as SE are OLR.

They will generally be wearing suits I find, and all carry clear ID.

 

[greatkingrat]

What is the point of an optional ticketless travel survey? Surely people without a ticket will just refuse.

 

[185]

Verian was Kantar surveys, likely genuine but I'd say he's not dressed appropriately for the work - dressed like a chugger.

It's a poorly thought out way of doing things and the real blame lies, not with the loudmouthed passenger who's right to question this situation, not with with the badly dressed survey man who should have just walked on....

....instead, blame lies 100% with the clueless £100K a year dope in TfL and the lazy bosses they hired at Kantar who didn't think this through before creating this situation.

 

[66701GBRF]

Verian was Kantar surveys, likely genuine but I'd say he's not dressed appropriately for the work - dressed like a chugger.

Asking to see the public's bank cards & phones - It's a poorly thought out way of doing things and the real blame lies, not with the loudmouthed passenger who's right to question this situation, not with with the badly dressed survey man who should have just walked on....

....instead, blame lies 100% with the clueless £100K a year dope in TfL and the lazy bosses they hired at Kantar who didn't think this through before creating this situation.

I think that is correct. While there is no excuse for whatever racist comments might have been made I have to say that I haven't heard of these surveyors before and if they approached me like that then I would probably be suspecting some sort of scam, especially the way they are dressed, their ID looks like it was printed at home and apparently asking to see bank cards while holding a machine.

It’s worth pointing out that the surveyor is holding a Movie device which is only capable of reading Oyster cards and not contactless payment cards, so he would have no way of scanning contactless bank cards anyway.

Members of the public are not to know that.

 

[AlterEgo]

Verian was Kantar surveys, likely genuine but I'd say he's not dressed appropriately for the work - dressed like a chugger.

It's a poorly thought out way of doing things and the real blame lies, not with the loudmouthed passenger who's right to question this situation, not with with the badly dressed survey man who should have just walked on....

....instead, blame lies 100% with the clueless £100K a year dope in TfL and the lazy bosses they hired at Kantar who didn't think this through before creating this situation.

The survey chap is just dressed like an Ordinary Joe, he isn’t badly dressed at all. Literally just in his civvies.

their ID looks like it was printed at home

How would you know? You can’t even see it properly in the video.

 

[Railguy1]

If someone approached me in plain clothes and asked to "see my bank card for a survey" I'd immediately think it was a scam.

Given the increasing number of news stories regarding scams in general and requests for members of the public to be more vigilant and cautious, this really seems a poorly conceived idea.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Verian was Kantar surveys, likely genuine

They're a genuine company ( to be exact Verian was previously Kantar Public - just one division of Kantar ) - but any market researcher should produce an MRS* identity card on request; if they don't the chances are they may not in fact be from the company they claim to be...

*Market Research Society

 

[jon0844]

What is the point of an optional ticketless travel survey? Surely people without a ticket will just refuse.

Then I assume they are counted as not having a ticket, or at least not presenting one.

The surveys are carried out for a number of days so I'm sure it doesn't skew the numbers by a significant number. I guess asking the DfT would be a good idea for someone with time to kill.

 

[bramling]

Having seen this on YouTube, it appears that scam RPIs are prevalent on TFL.

I wonder genuine RPIs, who are in plain clothes approach if a passenger wanted to verify in detail their ID (including examining the reverse) or happy for the passenger not to give details or allow a bank card to be scanned until a uniformed member of staff verifies their credentials.

Also, views on being “politely” being recorded by the passenger during the interaction. Here I mean no camera in face or provocation that you see by those auditors.

There is an aggressive tone and some racist remarks given by the passenger which is unacceptable so please be aware when viewing. See mods comment below.

mods note - I haven’t watched it but apparently there’s some strong language, please be aware before watching!

On balance, from what we see I’m gonna side more with the person doing the filming. If it was a genuine survey, it was conducted unprofessionally, and the surveyor’s communication skills were poor. And he could have walked away sooner rather than keep restarting the interaction.

This is of course a problem with having a bank card or phone as travel documentation, rather than a ticket which has no real value to a potential scammer.

 

[dannypye9999]

I'd never show my ticket or respond to any plain clothed officers whether genuine or not genuine. Infact i actually have no idea what having plain clothed revenue officers will achieve and what they can do that officers wearing uniforms can't.

 

[tixy]

My concern is that although a survey this time round, plain clothes RPIs do operate. I don’t know if they do checks on trains or just on the gate line but I would be hesitant in giving my bank card to anyone in normal clothes who claims to be an RPI. It is so easy to access plastic card printers these days and I’ve seen RPI badges go on eBay in the past. I just wonder if the genuine RPIs would allow a passenger time to either confirm with a uniformed colleague such as a guard or station staff member, the BTP or where the RPI is alone allow a careful examination of the RPIs badge and accompanying card.

 

[DMckduck]

I'd never show my ticket or respond to any plain clothed officers whether genuine or not genuine. Infact i actually have no idea what having plain clothed revenue officers will achieve and what they can do that officers wearing uniforms can't.

Plain clothed RPIs usually operate to catch a repeat offender or for a high value case, it's to catch a person or group of people off guard based on intelligence gathered over a period of time.

Chances are they may often have btp with them too, but not always. They serve a purpose.

 

[Starmill]

If someone approached me in plain clothes and asked to "see my bank card for a survey" I'd immediately think it was a scam.

They don't do that. They ask you to show them your ticket or travel documents, only you know if that's a bank card, a smartcard or a paper ticket / eticket.

 

[43066]

I'd never show my ticket or respond to any plain clothed officers whether genuine or not genuine. Infact i actually have no idea what having plain clothed revenue officers will achieve and what they can do that officers wearing uniforms can't.

If you don’t you’ll potentially then be committing a criminal offence. So long as you’re shown ID, what’s the problem?

 

[Starmill]

I'd never show my ticket or respond to any plain clothed officers whether genuine or not genuine. Infact i actually have no idea what having plain clothed revenue officers will achieve and what they can do that officers wearing uniforms can't.

Loads of the private lines use plain clothes ticket checks as par for the course. I've had them on Tyne and Wear Metro and Metrolink. If you don't show your ticket you'll be charged a Penalty Fare. It's also very clearly stated on posters that uniformed and plain clothed officers will check tickets. It may not be the norm for any of the TfL modes, and if that's the case then obviously fair enough, but I'd suggest you'd run into serious trouble if you adopted this kind of attitude everywhere in the country.

Then I assume they are counted as not having a ticket, or at least not presenting one.

Usually they record refused to show a ticket and admitted to not having a valid ticket separately. It's the up to the client, likely TfL for these surveyors, to interpret the data however they think best. I would expect both categories to count as a fail for a contract regime.

 

[D6130]

Most transport undertakings on the continent employ plain-clothes revenue protection staff to enhance the element of surprise aginst fraudsters. I have encountered them on the Paris Metro, Rome and Milano Trams and Metro, Prague trams and Frankfurt trams amonst others. Standard 'uniform' for both male and female inspectors seem to be blue jeans and black or brown leather jackets, with a flip-open pouch on their belts to show their I/D badges.

 

[185]

Loads of the private lines use plain clothes ticket checks as par for the course. I've had them on Tyne and Wear Metro and Metrolink.

Metrolink's fancy dress days are usually done with plain clothes staff with ID lanyards clearly visible boarding at Station A. Doors shut, 'tickets please' and off the tram goes to Station B. Should anyone fail to, or refuse to show, uniformed staff and police are waiting at Station B (called a circuit operation) as staff carry on to station C, then back to A. I'd say 99% of the passengers checked (ticket or not) are regulars who've usually recognised the staff anyway, and mostly see the funny side of it. Twas a hiatus some years ago when one turned up dressed as Santa Claus.

 

[Sprinter107]

Would it not be possible for either the guard or driver on DOO trains to just make an announcement to make passengers aware a plain clothed ticket surveyor is working on board. The ticket surveyor to make themselves known to staff before thry board.