"Plans for rail service from Kent to Gatwick"

[FlippyFF]

Mods/Admins, sorry I couldn't find a 'Not a chance in hell' sub-forum....

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/gatwick-to-kent-rail-service-plans-233849/

ByCiaran Duggan, local democracy reporter
[email protected]
Published: 09:19, 16 September 2020

A rail service linking Gatwick to the far reaches of east Kent could be on the cards, it has emerged.

Kent County Council (KCC) has drafted a 10-year transport action plan to put political pressure on government bosses and train operators to transform the region's rail system by 2030.

Chiefs at KCC are seeking to lobby the Department for Transport (DfT) for a cross-county service to run from Canterbury West to Gatwick airport near Crawley via Ashford and Tonbridge stations.

Stephen Gasche, County Hall's rail project manager, outlined his plan to extend an existing Great Western railway line - which runs from Reading to Gatwick via Redhill - to mid and east Kent.

He said: "That would be an extraordinary benefit for the whole of south east England."

His comments came yesterday as he spoke to councillors during a virtual public meeting of KCC's 15-person environment and transport committee.

Mr Gasche added: "It would knit together the counties of south east England with each other and Gatwick outside Greater London.

"If we can get Transport for the South East behind this - who certainly support it in principle - the case could be made for this service to be introduced."

However, he also warned that there are obstacles to overcome, such as having a viable business case.

Mr Gasche said they had previously lobbied the government for a train service to run from Gatwick to Ashford but were met with strong resistance from the Department for Transport due to a business case that "did not stand up".

The case stated that the service would have produced income of 90p for every £1 cost, the KCC environment and transport committee was told.

However, a regional powerhouse, Transport for the South East, is believed to support the idea and its political influence stretches across 16 transport authorities in the region, spanning from Kent to Hampshire and Sussex.

Sevenoaks county councillor David Brazier (Con) said an existing shuttle service running between Tonbridge and Redhill, which is six miles north of Gatwick, remains an "underused asset".

But, the former KCC transport portfolio holder questioned whether Mr Gasche's airport link plan was an "aspiration" or a realistic possibility.

He said: "I remember when I was cabinet member and we discussed these matters you showed me incredibly low traffic figures for the line and little appetite for a service from Ashford to Gatwick.

"Somehow you suggest there is a movement slow astern of that disinterest and the possibility may arise of Tonbridge to Redhill becoming part of a much more comprehensive route from mid and east Kent to Gatwick airport."

In response, Mr Gasche added: "It has to have a business case to justify it but by linking it with the existing Reading to Gatwick service, I believe the case would have a much greater chance of success now."

A lengthy public consultation on the draft 83-page document will run from next Wednesday (Sep 23) to November 17.

Responses will be considered by KCC's cabinet before they decide whether to approve this on January 25, 2021.

"but by linking it with the existing Reading to Gatwick service, I believe the case would have a much greater chance of success now." so they're really suggesting a Reading to Canterbury West service?

I've probably got this wrong but I'd estimate a stopping Ashford - Redhill via Tonbridge in approx. 1hr 14min, throw in a 5m(?) reversal at Redhill and then 17min down to Gatwick, so 1hr 36min Ashford to Gatwick? RealTimeTrains suggests the current GWR service has a 6-8min turnaround at Gatwick and then takes 1hr 19min Gatwick to Reading, so allowing an 8min turnaround at Gatwick we have 3h 23m Ashford to Reading? National Rail Enquires suggests even Ashford - Waterloo East/Waterloo - Reading would be 10m quicker and that's with a 29m change at Waterloo East/Waterloo...


Simon
(Written as an Ashford resident)

 

[Pumbaa]

They’ve been pushing for years for this. They lobbied very hard during South Eastern Franchise, both to DfT and the bidders. I don’t think it was ever explicitly not permitted for bidders to propose, but it was very much not encouraged. Besides, proving to a reasonable level that there is capacity to Gatwick almost certainly meant it wouldn’t be proposed.

 

[MontyP]

Would this service need to reverse 3 times - twice at Redhill and once at Gatwick?

 

[cle]

Would this service need to reverse 3 times - twice at Redhill and once at Gatwick?

I think it would be Three Bridges / Gatwick to Ashford, so just the one reversal at Redhill. This used to exist a good while ago, even up to Maidstone/Strood if I recall some NSE maps. Ashford is of course a much bigger town and rail hub these days.

But with Covid decimating both Gatwick Airport itself and killing Ashford's Eurostar service (for a year or two), I can't see this getting off the ground. But in theory, yes the line is one of the best in the South East, fast and straight - and incredibly underused, even between Tonbridge and Ashford. So in an ideal world, it could have a better regional purpose.

 

[Domh245]

I think it would be Three Bridges / Gatwick to Ashford, so just the one reversal at Redhill. This used to exist a good while ago, even up to Maidstone/Strood if I recall some NSE maps. Ashford is of course a much bigger town and rail hub these days.

Not with the proposal to tag it onto the GWR service, which would require a double reversal at Redhill.

I also decided to skim through the kent county council website to see if I could find the mentioned pdf, when I spotted something..

KCC Cabinet Member for Highways and Transport Michael Payne said: “We wish to ensure that Kent’s rail network will help deliver economic growth and to represent what our travelling public want and need.

“We don’t pretend to know all the answers, but we do want to ensure our residents’ voices are heard.

“The twin goals of this strategy will ensure we’re standing up for the people of Kent, and with a new South Eastern agreement award expected shortly, and with national rail policy on the cusp of further major change, we need to make sure our voice is heard.”

Who wants to break the bad news to Councillor Payne

 

[Bald Rick]

This comes up every few years or so.

There isn’t the demand, as the competition is too good (M20/23/5/6). Neither is there capacity Redhill to Gatwick; and even if there was, it would be far better employed than running a short unit with not many people on it.

 

[DorkingMain]

If they wanted to link it to anything, would the Redhill to Tonbridge service not be the most sensible choice?

 

[BluePenguin]

Fun fact: Did you know that Kent is the only Home County that does not have a direct train service to Gatwick?

Today travelling to Gatwick by train is awkward and involves multiple changes. Depending on where you live you must either change at either Tonbridge and Redhill or double back through Victoria, London Bridge or St Pancras. Neither is ideal with heavy suitcases or a push chair and the connections can be long especially if you just miss one - especially with a flight to catch!

Considering that far-flung places such as Peterborough, Cambridge and even Reading have a direct rail link to Gatwick, I’m sure people can understand our frustration that Kent being much closer, does not have one. These examples of places are located to other airports which are much closer - Luton, Stanstead and Heathrow respectively.

The Tonbridge - Redhill line seems to have been pushed aside somewhat in recent years without Tonbridge even having a direct service to London via Redhill anymore

I simply don’t buy the argument that there would not be the demand. If services were on time and fast enough then the demand would follow in time. People in Berkshire are much closer to Heathrow although most still travel on GWR to Gatwick for the convenience reason of there being a direct train. People don’t want to be messing about with changes and un-necessarily going into London

If the railway provides a shoddy service then no one is going to want to travel on it, especially if it likely to be delayed and there are faster options available. Currently from my house it is quicker to travel to Luton Airport via St Pancras than to trundle along to Gatwick, it is ludicrous.

The argument on capacity also doesn’t make sense as the majority of Thameslink and Southern trains travel via the Quarry line with only the slow service to Horsham going through Redhill anyway. Some juggling around of the timetables is all that would be needed surely.

Last summer there was a lot of us travelling on the Southern train wanting to save money over going via London. I am sure many other people do too on other days of the year. After a 4 hour flight joining the crush loads of tourists heading into London just to travel straight across it and back out again is not appealing. Other places have other options to avoid doing this - and Kent should too!

 

[Ianno87]

Fun fact: Did you know that Kent is the only Home County that does not have a direct train service to Gatwick?

Pretty sure Buckinghamshire and Essex don't either.

 

[BluePenguin]

Pretty sure Buckinghamshire and Essex don't either.

Shhh don’t say that, they will build a line to Gatwick from there too!

 

[Domh245]

Considering that far-flung places such as Peterborough, Cambridge and even Reading have a direct rail link to Gatwick, I’m sure people can understand our frustration that Kent being much closer, does not have one. These examples of places are located to other airports which are much closer - Luton, Stanstead and Heathrow respectively.

Peterborough & Cambridge only have the service as a result of operational convenience rather than any particular demand for the service..

 

[Ianno87]

Peterborough & Cambridge only have the service as a result of operational convenience rather than any particular demand for the service..

Although Cambridge-Gatwick is visibly (pre-Covid) quite strong demand, related to the University and the city's population. Quite a few people getting on the service (rather than the King's Cross fast) with suitcases.

 

[Bald Rick]

Fun fact: Did you know that Kent is the only Home County that does not have a direct train service to Gatwick?

Today travelling to Gatwick by train is awkward and involves multiple changes. Depending on where you live you must either change at either Tonbridge and Redhill or double back through Victoria, London Bridge or St Pancras. Neither is ideal with heavy suitcases or a push chair and the connections can be long especially if you just miss one - especially with a flight to catch!

Considering that far-flung places such as Peterborough, Cambridge and even Reading have a direct rail link to Gatwick, I’m sure people can understand our frustration that Kent being much closer, does not have one. These examples of places are located to other airports which are much closer - Luton, Stanstead and Heathrow respectively.

The Tonbridge - Redhill line seems to have been pushed aside somewhat in recent years without Tonbridge even having a direct service to London via Redhill anymore

I simply don’t buy the argument that there would not be the demand. If services were on time and fast enough then the demand would follow in time. People in Berkshire are much closer to Heathrow although most still travel on GWR to Gatwick for the convenience reason of there being a direct train. People don’t want to be messing about with changes and un-necessarily going into London

If the railway provides a shoddy service then no one is going to want to travel on it, especially if it likely to be delayed and there are faster options available. Currently from my house it is quicker to travel to Luton Airport via St Pancras than to trundle along to Gatwick, it is ludicrous.

The argument on capacity also doesn’t make sense as the majority of Thameslink and Southern trains travel via the Quarry line with only the slow service to Horsham going through Redhill anyway. Some juggling around of the timetables is all that would be needed surely.

Last summer there was a lot of us travelling on the Southern train wanting to save money over going via London. I am sure many other people do too on other days of the year. After a 4 hour flight joining the crush loads of tourists heading into London just to travel straight across it and back out again is not appealing. Other places have other options to avoid doing this - and Kent should too!

Just a couple of points.

Reading to Gatwick serves a much larger population heading than Ashford to Gatwick would. Not only on the route itself, but also beyond Reading. Even then, the number of passengers heading from beyond Reading, Reading itself, Wokingham, the Blackwater Valley, Guidlford (and connections), Dorking Etc specifically to Gatwick (as opposed to intermediate points) would barely fill a 3 coach train an hour at its busiest. It isn’t also, notably, a much more straightforward journey than by using the car, especially given the congestion in the SW sector of the M25, and through the Blackwater Valley towns and around Guidlford.

‘Juggling of the timetable’ is non-trivial. Besides, there’s plenty of services through Redhill, and Gatwick itself is a pinch point. As is Ashford for that matter.

 

[Minstral25]

The proposal has been discussed before and I did a post in Speculative ideas a long while back.

The core idea is that half-hourly Reading to Gatwick service joins a service from each of Strood and Ashford alternatively at Redhill (replacing the Tonbridge to Redhill service) - i.e. the two sets of services are connected at Redhill. Then the service becomes Gatwick to Reading/(Strood or Ashford). Strood service picks up some big places like Maidstone.

I added that the service should extend from Gatwick to Brighton to get links down the Brighton Main line from Blackwater Valley/Guildford/Dorking/Maidstone/Ashford/Redhill direct to Three Bridges (Crawley), Haywards Heath and Brighton. Gatwick should not be the only driver of the service as there is a lot of employment along this axis, as well as leisure in Brighton.

This service would link up much of the southern circle of towns round the M25 where currently most travellers avoid trains to sit on M25 instead. So new route could encourage a lot of new customers if a quality service was there. I think increasing line speeds, signalling and quality of stock would need to improve a lot as well to make it work properly to get people away from their cars on the M25.

 

[Ted633]

There used to be an hourly Horsham to Tunbridge Wells (ceased about 10 years ago). I travelled from Gatwick to Redhill for college, and it was always the train to go for (instead of the London one's) as there was never anyone on it!

 

[paul1609]

Mods/Admins, sorry I couldn't find a 'Not a chance in hell' sub-forum....

https://www.kentonline.co.uk/kent/news/gatwick-to-kent-rail-service-plans-233849/



"but by linking it with the existing Reading to Gatwick service, I believe the case would have a much greater chance of success now." so they're really suggesting a Reading to Canterbury West service?

I've probably got this wrong but I'd estimate a stopping Ashford - Redhill via Tonbridge in approx. 1hr 14min, throw in a 5m(?) reversal at Redhill and then 17min down to Gatwick, so 1hr 36min Ashford to Gatwick? RealTimeTrains suggests the current GWR service has a 6-8min turnaround at Gatwick and then takes 1hr 19min Gatwick to Reading, so allowing an 8min turnaround at Gatwick we have 3h 23m Ashford to Reading? National Rail Enquires suggests even Ashford - Waterloo East/Waterloo - Reading would be 10m quicker and that's with a 29m change at Waterloo East/Waterloo...


Simon
(Written as an Ashford resident)

If theres 2 tph Reading to Gatwick does the 3rd train have to also serve Gatwick?
From the east it would probably be sufficient to change at Redhill on to the frequent services down the Brighton Line.
I suspect that like most rail services the majority of the traffic wouldn't be end to end but journeys like Canterbury (or Maidstone) to Guildford would I suspect attract considerable traffic. If you consider the alternative road route (M25) its not exactly known for having tumbleweed blowing in the fast lane.

Also a resident of Ashford (Borough) (unfortunately,( free the Isle of Oxney!))

 

[JonathanH]

If theres 2 tph Reading to Gatwick does the 3rd train have to also serve Gatwick?

No, and won't, but as the 'stopper' it wouldn't be particularly competitive for through journeys. The problem with looking at the M25 is that it isn't a road with any significant single 'point to point' flow of the kind needed for a railway to offer an alternative.

 

[Tunnel Bore]

There used to be an hourly Horsham to Tunbridge Wells (ceased about 10 years ago). I travelled from Gatwick to Redhill for college, and it was always the train to go for (instead of the London one's) as there was never anyone on it!

I think some of those extended to Gatwick and Three Bridges and they used class 508 stock. I used change onto one sometimes for the last bit of my commute just for the variety of it.

 

[southern442]

This is an interesting idea, although as an indirect response to some earlier posts, there is not a huge amount of demand on the Tonbridge-Redhill line. I will admit, the only time I've used it was post-COVID, but I believe one of the main reasons for killing off the London-Tonbridge service was that nobody really used it apart from in the places where it was doubling up other services.

The line itself, however, has the potential to be a useful connector to other places where there is demand....

Moderator note: discussion moved to

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ideas-to-improve-connectivity-for-the-north-downs-line-including-gatwick-services.209280/

 

[paul1609]

No, and won't, but as the 'stopper' it wouldn't be particularly competitive for through journeys. The problem with looking at the M25 is that it isn't a road with any significant single 'point to point' flow of the kind needed for a railway to offer an alternative.

The fact that it's a stopper on this line wouldn't be that much of a problem the low line speed means that the "fast" trains aren't particularly fast, think it around 20 mins between Guildford and Redhill.
When you take the previously quoted Canterbury to Guildford journey you'd be saving interchange times of 21 mins at Ashford, 21 mins at Tonbridge and 11 mins at Redhill off a pretty much best scenario (or an hour on a realistic St Pancras to Waterloo), loosing 20 mins calling at every station isn't really a problem.

 

[brad465]

This comes up every few years or so.

There isn’t the demand, as the competition is too good (M20/23/5/6). Neither is there capacity Redhill to Gatwick; and even if there was, it would be far better employed than running a short unit with not many people on it.

I hate to bring this subject up, but the way things are looking post-December Op Brock is going to make train travel demand rocket relatively speaking, as the M20 and surrounding roads will be gridlocked. Even if any such service doesn't go to Gatwick, there will be more demand for train journeys along that whole corridor and some others around Kent linked to Ashford and Dover.

 

[telstarbox]

There used to be an hourly Horsham to Tunbridge Wells (ceased about 10 years ago). I travelled from Gatwick to Redhill for college, and it was always the train to go for (instead of the London one's) as there was never anyone on it!

Is this section of Wikipedia generally correct about the post-1995 services?

Redhill–Tonbridge line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Bald Rick]

I hate to bring this subject up, but the way things are looking post-December Op Brock is going to make train travel demand rocket relatively speaking, as the M20 and surrounding roads will be gridlocked.

If the roads are Gridlocked, it will be for a week or two at most. HM Govt will not want pictures of said queues and ‘BREXIT CHAOS’ headlines on the front page of the Times, Mirror and Guardian.

(The Mail and Express will go with ‘foreign trucks cause problems for British drivers’ on page 27)

 

[brad465]

If the roads are Gridlocked, it will be for a week or two at most. HM Govt will not want pictures of said queues and ‘BREXIT CHAOS’ headlines on the front page of the Times, Mirror and Guardian.

(The Mail and Express will go with ‘foreign trucks cause problems for British drivers’ on page 27)

I agree they won't want coverage lasting too long on that issue (although I expect them to try and throw dead cats everywhere to try and stop the headlines lasting longer than that). This issue will probably be best revisited in November onwards, when we're more likely to know what's going to happen and what the resultant impacts on the affected train services will be.

 

[Ted633]

Is this section of Wikipedia generally correct about the post-1995 services?

Redhill–Tonbridge line - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Not entirely. Before the transfer to Southern in 2008, there was a Southeastern (usually 508's) service from London Bridge to Tunbridge Wells, and a Southern 377 (though maybe with SE crews) that ran from Tunbridge Wells to Horsham, giving 2 TPH on the Redhill - Tonbridge line. Don't know how long that ran for prior to Dec 2008 though.

 

[trainmania100]

395s have been to Horsham so would be nice to see a service to Gatwick from Ashford via Redhill perhaps

 

[leytongabriel]

Pretty sure Buckinghamshire and Essex don't either.

Used to be that Southern service from Milton Keynes via the West London line didn't there before it was cut back to Croydon?

 

[yorkie]

....I added that the service should extend from Gatwick to Brighton ...

In the very long term, one could even connect Kent up to the Cross Country network via the North Downs line if there was potential for that kind of service.

Just a gentle reminder that we do ask for any posts of this nature to be posted in Speculative Ideas please

If anyone has any further posts regarding the actual proposals, feel free to report this post and let us know what you'd like to add and we will consider reopening the thread

Any posts that contain ideas/suggestions can be posted in the Speculative Ideas forum section please.

Some posts have been moved to the following threads:

• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...downs-line-including-gatwick-services.209280/
• https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...s-considered-to-be-in-buckinghamshire.209279/

Thanks