A relative travelling Hereford to Aberdeen today on a £62 ticket had platform change at Birmingham - and revised platform had 2 trains to Edinburgh ! He took the wrong one( much slower and would miss connection To Aberdeen in Edinburgh )- and was advised to change at Crewe to faster one to Glasgow . However he had to pay £100 before he could board the Glasgow bound train at Crewe. Is this reasonable and can he do anything about it?
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Platform change led to £100 extra ticket!
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From the price of the ticket, I assume that it was an advance ticket, which are valid on the specified trains.
As your relative therefore presumably boarded the incorrect train then unfortunately, no, he is in the wrong.
I am sure others will provide more detailled advice
As your relative therefore presumably boarded the incorrect train then unfortunately, no, he is in the wrong.
I am sure others will provide more detailled advice
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Staff would in my experience often give discretion in this sort of case, but they do have the right not to do so, so the fare charged was probably correct.
221129
Established Member
There would have been. The time would have been on the ticket/reservation and on the platform screens.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
At New St there will have been one in the A end and one in the B end with the respective displays showing which was which including calling points and departure time. There did used to be 2 trains to Edinburgh via different routes with the same departure time but I believe that has now been fixed by changing one of them one minute different in the public timetable.
221129
Established Member
The 2 trains weren't even in at the same time.
If there is no indication which of the 2 trains is the correct one - and no staff to check with and the arrival time is not shown ( and they have been altered to be on the same platform ) it does seem to make it difficult for a passenger to know which is the correct train . He was not charged for boarding the wrong train , but advised at Crewe to get another ticket For a different train to ensure he would still arrive in Aberdeen today.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I suspect the OP just went and boarded the train with Edinburgh on it without checking anything else, a very common (expensive) Advance ticket error.
Moderator note: aviation vs rail discussion moved to https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...easier-to-identify-the-booked-service.218197/
There is - the combination of departure time and destination, which is shown on the platform displays.
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221129
Established Member
There are lots of possible connections from Birmingham to Aberdeen leaving after the time they left Birmingham (including a direct train 3 hours later!)
Birmingham to Edinburgh via Crewe on Avanti is also about an hour quicker than via Leeds and the East Coast.
There will have been plenty of notices and staff around to check with.
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Could you please clarify which trains were on the original itinerary, and which trains were actually taken?
If I'm reading realtimetrains.co.uk's list of departures from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh correctly, the repeating pattern is that every two hours there's a slow Crosscountry departure followed by a fast Avanti West Coast departure.
The only platform alteration indicated is to the 1003 Crosscountry depature (arriving Edinburgh at 1509), which was altered to platform 7. This was then followed by the 1015 Avanti departure (arriving Edinburgh at 1418) form the same platform. There was no other pair of departures from the same platform today.
Since you say your relative's train was the one with an altered platform, and they disembarked from their incorrect train at Crewe (which only the Avanti passes through), it sounds like your relative was scheduled on the slower Crosscountry train but incorrectly boarded the faster Avanti train. This raises two questions:
* The Crosscountry train departed from platform 7 before the Avanti train arrived, so how did they incorrectly board the latter? Did they in fact first miss their intended train? If so, was this their own fault or the fault of the railway (e.g. their train to Birmingham was late)?
* If they had stayed on the Avanti train they would have arrived Edinburgh earlier than planned, not later. So why were advised to get off at Crewe? Was it that staying on the Avanti train would have cost more than the alternative route to Glasgow?
If I'm reading realtimetrains.co.uk's list of departures from Birmingham New Street to Edinburgh correctly, the repeating pattern is that every two hours there's a slow Crosscountry departure followed by a fast Avanti West Coast departure.
The only platform alteration indicated is to the 1003 Crosscountry depature (arriving Edinburgh at 1509), which was altered to platform 7. This was then followed by the 1015 Avanti departure (arriving Edinburgh at 1418) form the same platform. There was no other pair of departures from the same platform today.
Since you say your relative's train was the one with an altered platform, and they disembarked from their incorrect train at Crewe (which only the Avanti passes through), it sounds like your relative was scheduled on the slower Crosscountry train but incorrectly boarded the faster Avanti train. This raises two questions:
* The Crosscountry train departed from platform 7 before the Avanti train arrived, so how did they incorrectly board the latter? Did they in fact first miss their intended train? If so, was this their own fault or the fault of the railway (e.g. their train to Birmingham was late)?
* If they had stayed on the Avanti train they would have arrived Edinburgh earlier than planned, not later. So why were advised to get off at Crewe? Was it that staying on the Avanti train would have cost more than the alternative route to Glasgow?
221129
Established Member
Which there is....
Which there are....
Which it is...
I suspect this is the real issue.
Failed Unit
Established Member
I must admit, I don't understand why anyone would be told to change at Crewe when their ultimate destination is Aberdeen.
From Crewe Edinburgh & Glasgow are about the same duration (in terms of time). But the change at Haymarket is easier then crossing Glasgow city centre and again if anything Edinburgh - Aberdeen is slightly quicker than Glasgow - Aberdeen. If they were on an Edinburgh train, I can't see how getting a later train would save them time when you consider the Glasgow train would be stuck behind it anyway until Carstairs.
Yes, there is something missing here. If OP's relative accidentally caught the Avanti service, they would have got to Aberdeen sooner than if they had caught the XC service. In fact it gives a lovely 20 minute, cross platform connection onto the 14:34 Haymarket-Aberdeen LNER service.
Of course, it's quite possible the relative was travelling on Advance or split tickets which prevented them from taking either of these services.
Failed Unit
Established Member
Absolutely, unless they got the XC as it went first, realized their mistake, got off at Tamworth and then proceed to try and get north from there. But I will await some extra detail from the OP
WesternLancer
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another question that may be pertinent.
When asking at Crewe, did your relative ask a train manager / guard if they could broad and continue journey, or did they get off their train and ask station staff / ticket office if the ticket they held was valid, having realized they had got on the wrong train at Brum? (or being told that by the train staff whilst en route Brum to Crewe).
If the former a member of train staff may have showed discretion and allowed them to continue their journey on that ticket. But if eg ticket office staff were asked, they may correctly advise 'that ticket is not valid here, and you have missed the train that it was valid on, the only way you can continue your journey is to buy a new ticket which we can sell you for £x'
As an aside, this is one of the reason why unless a decent financial saving is on offer by buying an inflexible 'Advance' ticket, I avoid them. Only each individual passenger can decide what that saving trade off is worth to them.
Despite the comments on here, I can fully see why an irregular or slightly distracted traveler might get on the wrong train at a station they are not fully familiar with, or when departures are at similar times (I did it myself come to think of it in France, on a TGV, when 2 TGVs left on adjacent platforms for Paris, at approx the same time - I only realised when someone else came to turf me out of what I thought was my reserved seat that I was on the wrong train...fearful I would get asked to buy a new ticket as I would tend to expect in the UK I went to seek help and advice from the SNCF train manager - his response: an initial bemused look that I had even bothered to ask him about it, followed by a shrug, and then some help finding an unreserved alternative seat. He certainly did not seek any extra money! Perhaps the benefit of a unified national railway system...).
Failed Unit
Established Member
I have taken a look at the times. The OP hasn’t posted the intended journey.
Perhaps they got on the 1003 Edinburgh (XC) rather than the West Coast service. Once this mistake was realised then staying on this train rather then heading to the West Coast would be the quickest journey. Changing at Tamworth would result in a further change at Crewe to head towards Glasgow.
But anything else you struggle to work out what happened. If they were booked on the 1003 but missed it and went on the west coast service why leave it?
Perhaps they got on the 1003 Edinburgh (XC) rather than the West Coast service. Once this mistake was realised then staying on this train rather then heading to the West Coast would be the quickest journey. Changing at Tamworth would result in a further change at Crewe to head towards Glasgow.
But anything else you struggle to work out what happened. If they were booked on the 1003 but missed it and went on the west coast service why leave it?
If I understood BRFares correctly, the only through advances from Hereford to Aberdeen are routed "AWC & Connections", so presumably if the relative held a through ticket for around £62 then they would've been booked on a fast Avanti rather than a slow XC? (One of the advance tiers listed is £61 for an adult, and another is £62.35 for a child.) Alternatively, a split ticket could've been held, and the possibilities would be endless!
I think the most likely scenario is that they boarded the 1003 XC instead of the following VT, but how or why they then ended up going via Tamworth(?) and Crewe to Glasgow isn't at all clear.
However, ATM we are still guessing.
However, ATM we are still guessing.
Without getting into the wider issue, you seem in two different posts to be very confident there were lots of staff around, even though you weren't there.
Deafdoggie
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As a minimum at New Street there will have been a dispatcher and the train guard. For all the faults of New Street, when there's a platform change lots of staff also generally appear to assist too.
221129
Established Member
Have you ever been to Birmingham New St? The place is crawling with staff. Especially as it is a crew change over point as well.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There will certainly have been a dispatcher (several if it was the Pendolino) and the guard, all trains at New St are dispatched and there is no DOO.
New Street has some faults (albeit massively improved on five plus years ago) - late platform changes being a particular bugbear of mine - but absence of staff generally isn't one of then.
Although boarding the wrong train is ultimately the passenger's fault (provided displays and announcements were correct and not misleading), one could still ask what procedures the railway has in place to help prevent such incidents. Given that the UK standard is to identify trains by destination and time only, and it is known that some passengers only check/ask about the destination and forget about verifying time as well, one might expect that extra effort is put in at stations where different trains depart for the same destination at similar times, especially if from the same platform.
Do platform staff instructions include making additional manual announcements warning about the risk of confusion in these cases? I have certainly heard manual warnings, both on platforms and on train, in other situations where confusion may arise, but I wouldn't know if that's due to company policy or just excellent staff being proactive.
Perhaps a manual announcement was made but the OP's relative missed it? If the relative is certain that no warning announcement was made, perhaps it could be worth asking customer services for a gesture of goodwill such as rail vouchers for some fraction of the value of the additional ticket bought? The problem is which customer services to ask...
Do platform staff instructions include making additional manual announcements warning about the risk of confusion in these cases? I have certainly heard manual warnings, both on platforms and on train, in other situations where confusion may arise, but I wouldn't know if that's due to company policy or just excellent staff being proactive.
Perhaps a manual announcement was made but the OP's relative missed it? If the relative is certain that no warning announcement was made, perhaps it could be worth asking customer services for a gesture of goodwill such as rail vouchers for some fraction of the value of the additional ticket bought? The problem is which customer services to ask...
The TOC is also announced. I can't say for sure it's always announced, but I can't remember not hearing it. However, at New Street it can be quite difficult to hear the announcements, especially if there is a diesel in the platform, and the platform screens often don't show the operator until after the list of destinations, and I can't remember what the reservation coupon and ticket will show.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
The reservation coupon will show the departure time and destination, and those are clearly displayed at all times on the platform displays, unless (rare these days) they were faulty.
There is no ticket costing £62 from Hereford to Aberdeen, but given that the cheapest ticket for that journey that is not an Advance fare costs over £150, I think it is safe to assume that some rounding off has gone on and the OP’s relative was using an Advance fare.
These heavily discounted tickets are only valid on the specific trains chosen at time of purchase and printed on the ticket (or on a supplement coupon in certain cases).
Birmingham New Street station has clear displays as to which train is in which platform, and a great many staff who could have been asked for assistance if it was needed.
I fear that what in fact happened is the OP’s relative just spotted a train going to Edinburgh or wherever it was they were looking to go next, assumed it was the right one, jumped on and thought nothing more of it until they realised their mistake.
Whilst train companies do sometimes show discretion to passengers who make mistakes, they are not under an obligation to waive all costs. In this case they chose not to charge (or prosecute) the passenger for joining a train without a ticket at Birmingham New Street, but collected the fare correctly due for the new journey.
I think this is just one to write off and chalk up to experience.
These heavily discounted tickets are only valid on the specific trains chosen at time of purchase and printed on the ticket (or on a supplement coupon in certain cases).
Birmingham New Street station has clear displays as to which train is in which platform, and a great many staff who could have been asked for assistance if it was needed.
I fear that what in fact happened is the OP’s relative just spotted a train going to Edinburgh or wherever it was they were looking to go next, assumed it was the right one, jumped on and thought nothing more of it until they realised their mistake.
Whilst train companies do sometimes show discretion to passengers who make mistakes, they are not under an obligation to waive all costs. In this case they chose not to charge (or prosecute) the passenger for joining a train without a ticket at Birmingham New Street, but collected the fare correctly due for the new journey.
I think this is just one to write off and chalk up to experience.
Hmmm... a look at RTT shows the passenger arriving from Hereford at about 0910 (p9); then at p7, the XC train was there 0958-1005, followed by the Avanti 1006-15 (scheduled arrival to actual departure)
So... at what time would the Avanti train have been indicated (on platform, and in waiting area)? When was the the platform alteration (for the XC) decided/indicated/announced (and did this make a change to the previously announced/indicated next train from platform 7)? When would the passenger have been expected to move to the platform for boarding? At 1003, what was the answer which would have been given by staff on the platform to the question 'Is this the Edinburgh train?'?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There really does need to be a change of culture with regard to answering that question - they should ask to see the ticket. If another passenger ever asks me, that is what I do.
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