PlusBus dying off?

[mrmartin]

Haven't seen much mentioned about PlusBus recently. It seems to be dying off given it can't be added to eTickets (as far as I know?) and everyone is switching to apps to buy their tickets.

This seems like a huge missed opportunity as if it was on eTickets you could use it to the station and back, which would be a huge selling point? (right now you have to get to the station to use it which means 1 bus journey at least you can't use it for, or have the tickets posted to you which for many journeys is takes too long for short notice plans).

What I really would like is an eticket which included return travel to your origin station and return travel from your destination station, on an eTicket. I always need a bus at one end of the journey I take, live too far from the station, and often need a return journey back from wherever I'm going.

 

[Pemberton]

Whilst it does necessitate choosing the printed ticket option to collect from a machine, I do find that if I've got etickets I simply show that at the ticket office at the station on my phone and they sell me a Plusbus ticket accordingly.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It can't help that the £2 bus fare deal undercuts quite a few of the Plusbus fare add-ons, but in any case the situation nowadays is so different to the 90s when it was introduced. I can be on a train and look up bus times, bus stops and then just pay by tapping my card on the bus in a lot of situations so don't need the pre-planning of PlusBus - I can't be the only one?
I think there's still lots of opportunity to better integrate public transport but the issues to be solved now are not necessarily the ones of the past.

 

[Pemberton]

Obviously Plusbus varies in cost from place to place though with a Railcard I often find it's in the region of £2.50 to £3 which saves me money even if I'm only making 2 x £2 bus journeys and for me, I certainly often find it worthwhile.

 

[Adam Williams]

It can be fulfilled as E-Ticket, there's a standard for it. There has just not been much adoption of it by TIS suppliers as far as I know. The number of enabled RCS flows is also a problem.

I see two problems with PlusBus:

1. It's been undercut in many cases by the government's capped single fares (though note that it still provides significant value in some PTE areas). This may change, given time, when the subsidy finishes or prices are again allowed to increase beyond the point at which it's cheaper to buy a PlusBus add-on
2. As a colleague pointed out to me last week: Existing TIS suppliers haven't really put much thought into their implementations - it gets implemented quite lazily as a checkbox or add-on to select when you're planning a rail journey. It doesn't need to be this basic, and if some time was invested you could have a multimodal journey planner that allowed planning from one bus station to another (in a different town) with rail in-between.

Another problem, I think, is the lack of consistency with what you get with PlusBus. In some areas, it's really incredibly generous, and yet - in Warwickshire - it feels completely useless and you can't reach non-rail towns with the add-on.

 

[joncombe]

I haven't bought one for a while because of the number of times in the past I've had bus drivers look at me as if I've just landed from Mars when I tell them the ticket is valid on their bus (and sometimes insist it isn't and make me buy a new ticket). That and the fact they are quite hard to get hold of. You can't buy them online or from TVMs to my knowledge, only from a ticket office and I've also had problems buying them from ticket office where the staff don't know how to issue them. A good idea, poorly implemented I feel.

 

[redreni]

I'd be interested to see data on sales of PlusBus tickets.

I went to York not too long ago, having planned to use the bus to get from the city centre to York City FC's new out-of-town ground. There's a Park & Ride bus (run by First), a dedicated route Y22 that runs before and after matches (run by First) and a route 12 (run by TransDev). None of these routes accept each others' return tickets (despite two of them being run by the same company) and so I bought a PlusBus ticket, not to save money (the cost was the same as a return ticket would have been) but purely so I could board whichever bus turned up first on the return leg. Both First and TransDev were listed on the PlusBus website as participating operators and there was a list of excluded services which did not include any of the three routes I wanted to use. But, depressingly predictably, having made the outward journey using my PlusBus ticket without let or hindrance, when I boarded a Y22 bus to come back my ticket was refused. I had to wait 20 minutes for a Park & Ride bus and nearly missed my booked train (for which I had an advance ticket).

So it would help if all bus drivers knew about and consistently accepted PlusBus tickets when they're valid.

In addition, while I appreciate buses have their own concessionary passes for the elderly and for disabled people, I can't really think of a good reason why railcard discounts shouldn't be provided on buses in any event? The Network Railcard, for instance, was introduced to encourage people to choose public transport for discretionary off-peak travel, especially at weekends. This can include discounted bus travel if it's at either end of a rail journey, through PlusBus, or (for now at least) through discounted day travelcards in London, but should we not also seek to encourage people to choose public transport over driving for discretionary weekend travel even for journeys best made entirely by bus (e.g. Chatham to Maidstone or Slough to High Wycombe)?

Simply requiring bus operators to offer a 1/3 discount on all fares (including day tickets) to anyone with a valid railcard (which I accept would have to be funded) would reduce the need for PlusBus a great deal. People may still want them if they want the flexibility to use multiple bus companies' buses. Where buses are cashless and/or operate a flat fare system, as in London, this may involve the passenger having to register their payment card with the bus operator and apply their railcard discount to their account. TfL would need to get somebody to write the code to apply the Network Railcard discount only at weekends and after 10am Mon-Fri (and subject to the £13 minimum fare Mon-Fri), but they need to do that anyway, especially if they push ahead with their outrageous proposal to withdraw day travelcards.

 

[WAB]

I haven't bought one for a while because of the number of times in the past I've had bus drivers look at me as if I've just landed from Mars when I tell them the ticket is valid on their bus (and sometimes insist it isn't and make me buy a new ticket). That and the fact they are quite hard to get hold of. You can't buy them online or from TVMs to my knowledge, only from a ticket office and I've also had problems buying them from ticket office where the staff don't know how to issue them. A good idea, poorly implemented I feel.

You can buy them online, but that's not easy depending on the web interface. Some don't allow you buy it twice so you need to purchase at the booking office for your return trip. There are also the usual issues with drivers not accepting them when they should, but I find standing your ground gets you there eventually. They're really good for cutting through complex local ticketing schemes (or the lack of a scheme) and could do quite well if properly promoted.

 

[Haywain]

I'd be interested to see data on sales of PlusBus tickets.

I saw the annual sales figures about 7 or 8 years ago. Only a couple of schemes had sales in 4 figures and most were in the low hundreds. And people wonder why so many drivers don't recognise them.

 

[dk1]

I use it all the time. It’s mentioned in many rail timetables & bus websites. Such fantastic value if making multiple journeys it makes the £2 single bus promotion seem pricey.

I never remember it being that heavily promoted. If you know, you know.

 

[redreni]

You can buy them online, but that's not easy depending on the web interface. Some don't allow you buy it twice so you need to purchase at the booking office for your return trip. There are also the usual issues with drivers not accepting them when they should, but I find standing your ground gets you there eventually. They're really good for cutting through complex local ticketing schemes (or the lack of a scheme) and could do quite well if properly promoted.

I'm sure that's generally the case, but in my York example the bus driver was quite aggressive and would not be moved by reasoned argument (including showing him the web page for the York PlusBus scheme where his company was listed as a participating operator and the route he was driving was not on the excluded list).

I even emailed the bus company from the train on my way back to London to complain and they backed up their driver, again in the face of the evidence which clearly showed that, even if they had intended to exclude the Y22 football shuttle from the PlusBus scheme (which I got the distinct impression they had), I had bought my ticket based on information which said they hadn't.

I didn't think it was worth pursuing the matter any further but it goes to show the risk you run if you buy a PlusBus ticket.

(I'd also question whether charging pirate fares and refusing to accept your own return tickets on a bus route that is specifically designed to make an out-of-town football stadium accessible by public transport does anything other than encourage people attending events there to drive, creating copious amounts of congestion, pollution and general disruption).

I saw the annual sales figures about 7 or 8 years ago. Only a couple of schemes had sales in 4 figures and most were in the low hundreds. And people wonder why so many drivers don't recognise them.

Thanks. That's alarmingly low, isn't it?

 

[plugwash]

I haven't bought one for a while because of the number of times in the past I've had bus drivers look at me as if I've just landed from Mars when I tell them the ticket is valid on their bus (and sometimes insist it isn't and make me buy a new ticket). That and the fact they are quite hard to get hold of. You can't buy them online or from TVMs to my knowledge, only from a ticket office and I've also had problems buying them from ticket office where the staff don't know how to issue them. A good idea, poorly implemented I feel.

You can buy them from Northern TVMs if you use journey planner mode, but not if you use quick buy mode.

Not sure about other operators.

 

[Haywain]

That's alarmingly low, isn't it?

Yes, it is. And would still look low if a zero had been added to the numbers across the board.

 

[Adam Williams]

The scheme doesn't really appear to have modernised in the last ten years or so, which is a shame.

I mean, look at the website: https://www.plusbus.info/ - it looks like it was made in 2005. The logo still has bevels in it!

Looking at E-Ticketability was a good step forward, but it now needs expanding to the entirety of the UK's PlusBus areas. Traveline should be investing in refreshing the website and promoting the scheme a bit more..

 

[Haywain]

Traveline should be investing in refreshing the website and promoting the scheme a bit more..

Unfortunately, the main Traveline website doesn't seem to have changed much in recent years either.

 

[northwichcat]

Didn't they used to do a school summer holiday promotion where PlusBus fares were £2 if you bought them in advance online?

 

[Sonic1234]

Didn't they used to do a school summer holiday promotion where PlusBus fares were £2 if you bought them in advance online

They did. Was great value for the more expensive zones like Oxford.

Some TVMs would print them in the format of standard rail tickets without the big "PlusBus Day" across the top - that would confuse some drivers.

 

[MrJeeves]

It can't help that the £2 bus fare deal undercuts quite a few of the Plusbus fare add-ons

In some cases, but the railcard and even most non-railcard prices are typically cheaper if you're taking more than one bus.

The scheme doesn't really appear to have modernised in the last ten years or so, which is a shame.

I mean, look at the website: https://www.plusbus.info/ - it looks like it was made in 2005. The logo still has bevels in it!

It also doesn't help that some of the fares aren't up to date either... Brighton PlusBus was upped to £2.70 with railcard but the site still lists the old £2.40 price! :/

 

[sheff1]

You can't buy them online or from TVMs to my knowledge, only from a ticket office and I've also had problems buying them from ticket office where the staff don't know how to issue them. A good idea, poorly implemented I feel.

I have bought 100s online/ from TVMs over the years. TOC sites I usually use always ask whether I want to add bus travel. Never has a problem buying them from stations either.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

I'd be interested to see data on sales of PlusBus tickets.

I went to York not too long ago, having planned to use the bus to get from the city centre to York City FC's new out-of-town ground. There's a Park & Ride bus (run by First), a dedicated route Y22 that runs before and after matches (run by First) and a route 12 (run by TransDev). None of these routes accept each others' return tickets (despite two of them being run by the same company) and so I bought a PlusBus ticket, not to save money (the cost was the same as a return ticket would have been) but purely so I could board whichever bus turned up first on the return leg. Both First and TransDev were listed on the PlusBus website as participating operators and there was a list of excluded services which did not include any of the three routes I wanted to use. But, depressingly predictably, having made the outward journey using my PlusBus ticket without let or hindrance, when I boarded a Y22 bus to come back my ticket was refused. I had to wait 20 minutes for a Park & Ride bus and nearly missed my booked train (for which I had an advance ticket).

PlusBus would not be valid on the Y22, as it is a contract-run service, with no acceptance of anything but concessions and specific tickets on board.

Even our staff passes aren't valid on the Ashton Gate (AG1/2/3) services here in Bristol, nor the A1 Airport Flyer.

 

[Deerfold]

PlusBus would not be valid on the Y22, as it is a contract-run service, with no acceptance of anything but concessions and specific tickets on board.

So that should be specified on the PlusBus page - as it is for the similar Race Day special service.

The irony is that LNER sponsor the stadium. They'll sell you a rail ticket to York and a ticket for local buses that's not valid on the service aimed at those going to the stadium.

 

[winks]

I find PlusBus a hidden gem especially when travelling to Brighton for a day or even a weekend.

Plus bus £2.70
B&H day saver on the app £5.00

No brainer..

I do remember a time when Brighton plus bus was £1.20 !

 

[redreni]

PlusBus would not be valid on the Y22, as it is a contract-run service, with no acceptance of anything but concessions and specific tickets on board.

Even our staff passes aren't valid on the Ashton Gate (AG1/2/3) services here in Bristol, nor the A1 Airport Flyer.

Yes, that's essentially what they told me when I complained, but that's not how selling stuff works. If you sell a pass that's supposed to work on all the services of all the participating operators unless on the excluded list, then if you don't want to accept said pass on the Y22, you have to put the Y22 on the excluded list. Otherwise people are going to buy the pass under false pretences. It's essential that people can find out what routes are included before they decide whether or not to buy the pass.

In this case the Y22 was clearly advertised as being operated by First, First was clearly listed as a participating operator and the Y22 wasn't on the excluded list (unlike the shuttle bus to the race course, incidentally - a detail which naturally made me assume that if the bus company had intended to exclude the football shuttle then it, too, would have been on the excluded list). On checking today I notice the Y22 still isn't on the excluded list now, even though the company is aware of the problem of people buying PlusBus tickets expecting to be able to use the Y22 (I know this because I complained and, as I told them at the time, I wasn't the only visiting football supporter to have the issue).

It does raise an interesting question, though, regarding PlusBus tickets in general. Is there a contract and, if so, who is it with?

The website definitely promises that if you buy a PlusBus ticket it will enable you to travel on participating operators' buses within the area shown on the zone map, subject only to the listed exclusions (there is no mention of extra exclusions the bus company may have made up). A glance at this thread tells you that's not the case as valid PlusBus tickets are frequently rejected by bus drivers, whether incompetently or, as in the York Y22 case, on instructions from their company. So somebody's frequently in breach of contract, I'm just not sure who?

 

[Adam Williams]

So somebody's frequently in breach of contract, I'm just not sure who?

Presumably the buck has to stop with the retailer, who would need to refund the ticket under these circumstances. I am not convinced all retailers necessarily would, and may well direct the customer to complain to the bus operator instead.

Quite unsatisfactory for all parties, except the bus company.

 

[MrJeeves]

Plus bus £2.70

That's pushed (intentionally) the non-discounted PlusBus up to £4.10, just above the cost of two singles.

And the PlusBus site is still showing the wrong price!

Presumably the buck has to stop with the retailer, who would need to refund the ticket under these circumstances.

Would there be any recourse for the retailer, considering the data from PlusBus is incorrect, or would it simply have to rely on (the retailer?) contacting PlusBus to get the website updated to show updated info?

 

[Deerfold]

That's pushed (intentionally) the non-discounted PlusBus up to £4.10, just above the cost of two singles.

And the PlusBus site is still showing the wrong price!

Have you contacted PlusBus? Although, of course they should be updating their details, in the past I've had some luck with getting them to correct details (that was about a change in number to a service to a tourist destination that was highlighted on the site - it's no longer served).

 

[choo.choo]

You can buy them online, but that's not easy depending on the web interface. Some don't allow you buy it twice so you need to purchase at the booking office for your return trip. There are also the usual issues with drivers not accepting them when they should, but I find standing your ground gets you there eventually. They're really good for cutting through complex local ticketing schemes (or the lack of a scheme) and could do quite well if properly promoted.

I've tried to use them on busses before where the driver has seemingly never heard of them, despite the side window next to the doors (visible from where the driver was) having a "we accept PlusBus tickets" sticker on it.

 

[MrJeeves]

Have you contacted PlusBus? Although, of course they should be updating their details, in the past I've had some luck with getting them to correct details (that was about a change in number to a service to a tourist destination that was highlighted on the site - it's no longer served).

I have done. Will update here if they get back to me.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Yes, that's essentially what they told me when I complained, but that's not how selling stuff works. If you sell a pass that's supposed to work on all the services of all the participating operators unless on the excluded list, then if you don't want to accept said pass on the Y22, you have to put the Y22 on the excluded list. Otherwise people are going to buy the pass under false pretences. It's essential that people can find out what routes are included before they decide whether or not to buy the pass.

In this case the Y22 was clearly advertised as being operated by First, First was clearly listed as a participating operator and the Y22 wasn't on the excluded list (unlike the shuttle bus to the race course, incidentally - a detail which naturally made me assume that if the bus company had intended to exclude the football shuttle then it, too, would have been on the excluded list). On checking today I notice the Y22 still isn't on the excluded list now, even though the company is aware of the problem of people buying PlusBus tickets expecting to be able to use the Y22 (I know this because I complained and, as I told them at the time, I wasn't the only visiting football supporter to have the issue).

It does raise an interesting question, though, regarding PlusBus tickets in general. Is there a contract and, if so, who is it with?

The website definitely promises that if you buy a PlusBus ticket it will enable you to travel on participating operators' buses within the area shown on the zone map, subject only to the listed exclusions (there is no mention of extra exclusions the bus company may have made up). A glance at this thread tells you that's not the case as valid PlusBus tickets are frequently rejected by bus drivers, whether incompetently or, as in the York Y22 case, on instructions from their company. So somebody's frequently in breach of contract, I'm just not sure who?

Have you contacted PlusBus to tell them that their website is wrong, or just going to keep blaming the bus company?

The bus company haven't "made up" an exclusion. It's not fictional. It's an actual restriction, clearly advertised on the relevant page of the bus operators website - https://www.firstbus.co.uk/york/plan-journey/live-local-spend-local-travel-local/york-city-fc - that only the specifically listed tickets are valid on Y22.

The bus driver certainly hasn't done anything wrong.

I could sell you a ticket and tell you that it's valid on the TrentBarton "Red Arrow" service. But it wouldn't be, and the driver would rightly reject the ticket, and the company would back up the driver if you complained to them.

In this case, I'm afraid, your issue is with the promoter, not the bus company.

That's not to say that there aren't other issues with PlusBus acceptance in general - there clearly are - but in this instance it's the PlusBus website that's wrong, not the bus company or bus driver.

 

[Deerfold]

Have you contacted PlusBus to tell them that their website is wrong, or just going to keep blaming the bus company?

The bus company haven't "made up" an exclusion. It's not fictional. It's an actual restriction, clearly advertised on the relevant page of the bus operators website - https://www.firstbus.co.uk/york/plan-journey/live-local-spend-local-travel-local/york-city-fc - that only the specifically listed tickets are valid on Y22.

The bus driver certainly hasn't done anything wrong.

I could sell you a ticket and tell you that it's valid on the TrentBarton "Red Arrow" service. But it wouldn't be, and the driver would rightly reject the ticket, and the company would back up the driver if you complained to them.

In this case, I'm afraid, your issue is with the promoter, not the bus company.

That's not to say that there aren't other issues with PlusBus acceptance in general - there clearly are - but in this instance it's the PlusBus website that's wrong, not the bus company or bus driver.

Does that mean you shouldn't be able to trust anything on the PlusBus website? I'm sure that's where you're advised to look when buying a PlusBus ticket.
First are one of the operators funding PlusBus. Should they not be checking that the information about them is correct?