Pointless rail replacement buses

[mikeg]

this bus runs from Northallerton to Thirsk. There would not normally be a service from NTR to THI at this time, and indeed southbound calling at Thirsk appears unaffected by engineering works.
Normally when works are taking place at Thirsk at this time and the last northbound service is affected, a bus runs slightly later than the trains arrive in Northallerton, with passengers permitted to double back. This would normally be suggested by the journey planners despite the absence of any easement.
However this bus is timed to depart before the last northbound train gets into NTR.
Therefore what is its purpose in life? It used to be just after. Possibly an excuse by TPE to say nobody uses the bus in these circumstances and withdraw it? Either way it's ludicrous unless anyone else has any ideas?

 

[Watershed]

this bus runs from Northallerton to Thirsk. There would not normally be a service from NTR to THI at this time, and indeed southbound calling at Thirsk appears unaffected by engineering works.
Normally when works are taking place at Thirsk at this time and the last northbound service is affected, a bus runs slightly later than the trains arrive in Northallerton, with passengers permitted to double back. This would normally be suggested by the journey planners despite the absence of any easement.
However this bus is timed to depart before the last northbound train gets into NTR.
Therefore what is its purpose in life? It used to be just after. Possibly an excuse by TPE to say nobody uses the bus in these circumstances and withdraw it? Either way it's ludicrous unless anyone else has any ideas?

It looks like an error to me. Normally the buses would need to have a "turnaround" of at least 10 minutes to connect into the train in both directions. I suspect the bus (it would probably be a minibus?) would wait to connect off the train in practice.

The reason why the engineering works affect northbound trains but not southbound ones is that the possession limits are different in each direction. There are also some possessions where trains cannot call at Thirsk due to the lack of a crossover from the Up Fast to the Up Slow.

As far as I'm aware, rail replacement bus loadings aren't routinely monitored and the availability - or otherwise - of buses is therefore not directly influenced by their loading.

 

[mikeg]

It looks like an error to me. Normally the buses would need to have a "turnaround" of at least 10 minutes to connect into the train in both directions. I suspect the bus (it would probably be a minibus?) would wait to connect off the train in practice.

The reason why the engineering works affect northbound trains but not southbound ones is that the possession limits are different in each direction. There are also some possessions where trains cannot call at Thirsk due to the lack of a crossover from the Up Fast to the Up Slow.

As far as I'm aware, rail replacement bus loadings aren't routinely monitored and the availability - or otherwise - of buses is therefore not directly influenced by their loading.

Interesting thanks... It's not the first time this happened. I might drop TPE an email as to this...

Incidentally when I lived in Thirsk I've had the train get delayed, the bus setting off without us. And numerous times I only just managed to catch it. The driver saying he goes at the scheduled time and nothing else. Typical bus driver non-logic.

 

[JonathanH]

Not unusual to have pointless rail replacement buses in the Redhill area.

Tonight there is a 2350 Redhill to Purley bus
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:X13511/2022-01-25/detailed

The last northbound train leaves Redhill at 2349 for Peterborough
9W90 2311 Horsham to Peterborough
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:X02888/2022-01-25/detailed

For completeness, the last 405 leaves Redhill at 2350 as well.

Clearly the later buses at Redhill are needed but it seems they start slightly too early.

 

[Bovverboy]

Incidentally when I lived in Thirsk I've had the train get delayed, the bus setting off without us. And numerous times I only just managed to catch it. The driver saying he goes at the scheduled time and nothing else. Typical bus driver non-logic.

I don't think you can blame bus/coach companies and their drivers for not taking rail replacement work seriously when the TOCs themselves don't. Well, those running long distance services might, but those running local services often don't. The driver is given a departure time from a particular point, with no acknowledgement of any train to connect with. Even departures from the bus originating point are often not supervised, and from intermediate points hardly ever. Often the driver won't know the route, especially if the bus has been brought in at short notice, but the TOCs don't see that as being their problem.
In the situation of a bus connecting with a train, the bus might wait, it might not, but in the converse situation, i.e. a train connecting with a bus, the train wouldn't wait in a million years.
P.S. The above is coming from someone who has done a lot of rail replacement work, as a coach driver.

 

[ValleyLines142]

With the reduced CrossCountry timetable there's a rail replacement bus from Gloucester to Newport at 12:30 calling at Chepstow, which takes an hour and 40 minutes, so much so that you may as well wait for the Maesteg service at 2pm which only gets to Newport half an hour later!

 

[L401CJF]

Interesting thanks... It's not the first time this happened. I might drop TPE an email as to this...

Incidentally when I lived in Thirsk I've had the train get delayed, the bus setting off without us. And numerous times I only just managed to catch it. The driver saying he goes at the scheduled time and nothing else. Typical bus driver non-logic.

Rather than typical bus driver non-logic, its more likely that's just what they've been told to do. I've driven rail replacements many times, if its a big coordinated operation and you're told to wait then yes you'd wait. If its a late evening train with no station staff or bus coordinators to advise, then you leave at the time you've been told.

For a lot of the rails I've driven (mainly for Merseyrail) we are given a running board very similar to the usual bus service running board, with times for each station. When you reach time, you go unless otherwise told to wait - especially if you've already been driving all day and are running out of driving hours. Don't forget driving hours are factored into these things - even if it's just the one bus, chances are it's not the only job the driver has done that day.

 

[mikeg]

Rather than typical bus driver non-logic, its more likely that's just what they've been told to do. I've driven rail replacements many times, if its a big coordinated operation and you're told to wait then yes you'd wait. If its a late evening train with no station staff or bus coordinators to advise, then you leave at the time you've been told.

For a lot of the rails I've driven (mainly for Merseyrail) we are given a running board very similar to the usual bus service running board, with times for each station. When you reach time, you go unless otherwise told to wait - especially if you've already been driving all day and are running out of driving hours. Don't forget driving hours are factored into these things - even if it's just the one bus, chances are it's not the only job the driver has done that day.

I see thanks. Somehow I'd forgotten about driving hours being factored in. I shouldn't have, my father is a trucker. But it does seem bad to cut it so fine in terms of planning.

I don't think you can blame bus/coach companies and their drivers for not taking rail replacement work seriously when the TOCs themselves don't. Well, those running long distance services might, but those running local services often don't. The driver is given a departure time from a particular point, with no acknowledgement of any train to connect with. Even departures from the bus originating point are often not supervised, and from intermediate points hardly ever. Often the driver won't know the route, especially if the bus has been brought in at short notice, but the TOCs don't see that as being their problem.
In the situation of a bus connecting with a train, the bus might wait, it might not, but in the converse situation, i.e. a train connecting with a bus, the train wouldn't wait in a million years.
P.S. The above is coming from someone who has done a lot of rail replacement work, as a coach driver.

Lack of communication then? So it's more typical for the railway..

 

[geoffk]

Train companies seem to have little or no knowledge of the local bus network and, if they did, some RRBs could be dispensed with. In times of disruption local bus operators sometimes agree to accept rail tickets but I don't know what the arrangements are for reimbursement.

And if the bus is delayed in traffic the train certainly won't wait. I remember a train passenger giving the conductor/guard an earful for not waiting as the bus was just arriving and wanted to take his name!

 

[markymark2000]

I present to you.... A USELESS RAIL REPLACEMENT

04:59 bus off Chester to Crewe: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V14495/2022-01-21/detailed

05:37 train off Chester to Crewe: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P21442/2022-01-21/detailed

Scheduled to arrive into Crewe within 3 minutes of eachother. Just cancel the bus and force everyone onto the train, same Arrival time basically. Save yourself a few hundred quid.



Next up:
23:30 bus off Crewe to Chester: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V14491/2022-01-21/detailed
23:30 train off Crewe to Chester: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P21083/2022-01-21/detailed

What an absolute waste of money this is!

I don't think you can blame bus/coach companies and their drivers for not taking rail replacement work seriously when the TOCs themselves don't. Well, those running long distance services might, but those running local services often don't. The driver is given a departure time from a particular point, with no acknowledgement of any train to connect with. Even departures from the bus originating point are often not supervised, and from intermediate points hardly ever. Often the driver won't know the route, especially if the bus has been brought in at short notice, but the TOCs don't see that as being their problem.
In the situation of a bus connecting with a train, the bus might wait, it might not, but in the converse situation, i.e. a train connecting with a bus, the train wouldn't wait in a million years.
P.S. The above is coming from someone who has done a lot of rail replacement work, as a coach driver.

This couldn't be more true. TOCs are awful when it comes to rails. The other week, TFW had a Manchester Picc to Manchester Airport service. There were other trains going which people could use, there was no need for the RRB, people could have switched trains and got there quicker.

I think for me, the worst thing now is TOCs not doing 'pick up' or 'set down' only. Pick up only helps for instances where a train is running behind but perhaps the TOC wants to save people changing trains. Say Manchester - Stockport (and beyond). Levenshulme and Heaton Chapel have a train 5 mins later but people travelling beyond, it saves them getting a train to Stockport then the bus. Anyone going to Levenshulme or Heaton Chapel would currently hear the announcement and go down and get the bus but that is daft when it is probably slower and who wants to be on a replacement bus if they don't have to be.
Set Down Only saves you serving stops which should not have passengers because the bus is significantly later than the last train. An example being this week the 23:12 from Crewe to Manchester is replaced by a bus. Northern have put on a train from Stockport to Manchester though at the normal times. In this instance, there is zero reason for anyone to get on the bus at Levenshumle or Heaton Chapel. as the 'last train' has ran. The bus should be set down from Stockport since the 'last' train has ran from these stations, only people travelling from south of Stockport should need to get to these stations. Set Down Only has so many perks and would reduce emissions and congestion as well as maybe cost savings (if the TOC paid 'actual' rather than 'scheduled' mileage). Above all else though, it saves passengers being sat on a bus longer than they have to which always goes down well.

Train companies seem to have little or no knowledge of the local bus network and, if they did, some RRBs could be dispensed with. In times of disruption local bus operators sometimes agree to accept rail tickets but I don't know what the arrangements are for reimbursement.

And if the bus is delayed in traffic the train certainly won't wait. I remember a train passenger giving the conductor/guard an earful for not waiting as the bus was just arriving and wanted to take his name!

So true. Local buses could and should be used for some rail rep, there is so much potential there, especially for some of the more local lines. I think though like many companies, TOCs frown upon local buses and love having the control which 'dedicated buses' brings. Also the thought of passengers having to walk an extra 100m for a a local bus rather than dedicated bus which stops at the station entrance. If Aber-Mach goes down though in the day, it has to be better to put people on the T2 or X28 as the buses are already there, half hourly (give or take) and serve all the stops except Borth (but a minibus could do that) and Dovey Junction (which Rail Reps can't serve so either way, people are stuck there). The T2 and X28 are quicker than the Rail Rep because of Borth (service takes 40-50 mins versus 55 on the RRB) so it's quicker, gets people moving without waiting for a RRB (except Borth) and when you go out to the public with the information, you can provide times for when the bus will be at the stop rather than emergency RRBs where you don't know how long it will take to get to each stop, you just guestimate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So true. Local buses could and should be used for some rail rep, there is so much potential there, especially for some of the more local lines.

They very often are. In London very close to always. In Birmingham quite often. Depends I guess on capacity and the relationship between rail and bus companies.

 

[SargeNpton]

Next up:
23:30 bus off Crewe to Chester: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:V14491/2022-01-21/detailed
23:30 train off Crewe to Chester: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P21083/2022-01-21/detailed

What an absolute waste of money this is!

Looks as if the replacement bus was input for the wrong dates. P21083 was cancelled for Tuesday 18/1/22 & Thursday 20/1/22. However, the replacement bus V14491 was input for Tuesday 18/1/22 & Friday 21/1/22.

 

[markymark2000]

Looks as if the replacement bus was input for the wrong dates. P21083 was cancelled for Tuesday 18/1/22 & Thursday 20/1/22. However, the replacement bus V14491 was input for Tuesday 18/1/22 & Friday 21/1/22.

I wouldn't put that past TFW. Speaking to a driver that I know, they were running Chester - Liverpool for a week. They said there were 3 coaches on it, back and forth all day and no one knew anything about it as it wasn't on the boards and nothing on RTT or online websites Nothing, Lime Street and S Parkway staff didn't even know it was happening until the driver went in each morning to let them know. All week they carried about 5 people all week between them.

 

[kieron]

With the reduced CrossCountry timetable there's a rail replacement bus from Gloucester to Newport at 12:30 calling at Chepstow, which takes an hour and 40 minutes, so much so that you may as well wait for the Maesteg service at 2pm which only gets to Newport half an hour later!

The bus is useful for people going to or from Chepstow, surely? Through passengers can change at Bristol Parkway and (in this case) reach Newport before the bus does.

 

[james60059]

08:10 Bus Hinckley - Leicester calling at Narborough and South Wigston, arriving at Leicester 08:58.

13 minutes before however....

07:57 Train Hinckley - Leicester calling at Narborough and South Wigston, arriving at Leicester at 08:18.

I've not actually seen this bus run however.

The return makes sense, as there's a 2 hour gap in local train stopping services 09:18 Leicester - Nuneaton

 

[ValleyLines142]

The bus is useful for people going to or from Chepstow, surely? Through passengers can change at Bristol Parkway and (in this case) reach Newport before the bus does.

Well there's a train to Chepstow about 30 minutes beforehand!

 

[miklcct]

And if the bus is delayed in traffic the train certainly won't wait. I remember a train passenger giving the conductor/guard an earful for not waiting as the bus was just arriving and wanted to take his name!

This was false in my experience in TfW trains on the Cambrian line when it was upgraded. The train waited for the bus to arrive before heading to Birmingham.

The train ran every 2 hours on the line, therefore it would be a disaster if the train left!

 

[Timmyd]

When Victoria to Orpington trains aren't running via Beckenham Junction, RRBs run from Denmark Hill to Bromley South. They invariably are empty because it makes no sense to then go to DMK and wait any time up to 30 minutes for the next SE service to Victoria, when instead they could run to Brixton - which is left with no replacement service - and then connect into the Victoria Line for a very frequent service to Victoria. Suspect SE don't want to have to agree ticket acceptance with the tube but its much less convenient for passengers, and most will just use local TFL buses or alternative train stations (eg Penge West for Penge East) instead.

 

[JonathanH]

Suspect SE don't want to have to agree ticket acceptance with the tube but its much less convenient for passengers

Does ticket acceptance really mean anything in London any more? You are just getting a different charge on Oyster or Contactless for the route you end up taking. There isn't much point going to Brixton if there are no rail services from there and as you note passengers can use other routes / means of transport.

 

[PTR 444]

I never really saw the point in running RRBs between Ryde Esplanade and Havenstreet during the Island Line Blockade. While I understand it had to run to perform a function normally achieved by changing at Smallbrook Junction, it probably would have been a better use of resources to allow ticket acceptance on Southern Vectis route 9 to Wootton Station and direct passengers to the IOWSR from there.

 

[High Dyke]

There's some next weekend, due to engineering work in the Sleaford area. On Saturday night there's this bus Boston - Sleaford - Grantham: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:J14222/2022-02-05/detailed which replaces the 21:50 Boston (ex-Skegvegas) train to Nottingham and the 22:47 Sleaford - Nottingham train. Whilst the 21:50 train calls at Grantham (departing there at 22:43) the following Sleaford - Nottingham train does not call at Grantham. i appreciate it's only to provide the connection for through passengers, but still bizarre nonetheless.

 

[Broken70]

A little away from the topic potentially however I'm reminiscent of a few years ago between Christmas and New Year. Got a call around 2pm from work asking if I fancied some rail replacement for that evening and not doing anything I agreed. Only a one way from Manchester Airport to Sheffield via Piccadilly and Stockport. The 2255 departure from the airport if I remember correctly. Having arrived at the airport I was greated by few passengers all for picc and didn't think nothing of it. Non of them wanted Stockport or Sheffield however some mentioned stations on the Transpennine route. It was only when I arrived at Stockport to some very confused staff it became apparent the train had actually run on time over the full route. Since the day whenever I'm driving rail replacement I check real-time trains.

 

[Timmyd]

Does ticket acceptance really mean anything in London any more? You are just getting a different charge on Oyster or Contactless for the route you end up taking. There isn't much point going to Brixton if there are no rail services from there and as you note passengers can use other routes / means of transport.

Say you're going Herne Hill to Victoria. Off peak fare is something like £2.40 each way, but would take an hour RRB+train from DMK. Less than half that time TFL bus and tube but fare would be double

 

[Hophead]

The Arun Valley line is closed south of Horsham this week, so the Bognor trains are diverted, leaving just the Thameslinks. These arrive at Horsham at xx:09 & xx:39. So when do the buses south run? Obviously, these are timed to go at xx:05 & xx:07, then xx:35 & xx:37, leaving the poor passenger from, say, Crawley to Billingshurst to hang around for the best part of half-an-hour awaiting a connection.

From casual observation, Southern seem to make a point of scheduling replacement buses as inconveniently as possible.

 

[markymark2000]

I think that I have just found the best one. Due to 'urgent bridge repairs', Northern are not serving Stanlow and Thornton Station and so they have put on a Rail Replacement minibus.
Bus running 05:55 Frodsham to Ellesmere Port all stations, 06:33 Ellesmere Port to Stanlow then drop off as required to Helsby, 18:54 Helsby all stops to Ellesmere Port and 19:15 Ellesmere Port to Stanlow then drop off as required all stops to Warrington.
Bearing in mind, this is all for passengers who are going to one of the least used stations in the UK.

Whichever bus operator has won that rail rep will be rolling in it. Easiest work in the world.

 

[SE%Traveller]

When Victoria to Orpington trains aren't running via Beckenham Junction, RRBs run from Denmark Hill to Bromley South. They invariably are empty because it makes no sense to then go to DMK and wait any time up to 30 minutes for the next SE service to Victoria, when instead they could run to Brixton - which is left with no replacement service - and then connect into the Victoria Line for a very frequent service to Victoria. Suspect SE don't want to have to agree ticket acceptance with the tube but its much less convenient for passengers, and most will just use local TFL buses or alternative train stations (eg Penge West for Penge East) instead.

Agreed. By the same token Thameslink could run the RRB to Elephant and Castle when not running via Catford (rather than Herne Hill). If the Dartford Victoria trains are still running then those will be used instead Denmark Hill to Nunhead, Catford has Catford Bridge so i imagine these buses pretty empty too!

 

[The exile]

I think that I have just found the best one. Due to 'urgent bridge repairs', Northern are not serving Stanlow and Thornton Station and so they have put on a Rail Replacement minibus.
Bus running 05:55 Frodsham to Ellesmere Port all stations, 06:33 Ellesmere Port to Stanlow then drop off as required to Helsby, 18:54 Helsby all stops to Ellesmere Port and 19:15 Ellesmere Port to Stanlow then drop off as required all stops to Warrington.
Bearing in mind, this is all for passengers who are going to one of the least used stations in the UK.

Whichever bus operator has won that rail rep will be rolling in it. Easiest work in the world.

At least it makes sense on paper - in terms of maintaining something as near as possible to the advertised service for passengers (sadly lacking in some RRB provision). Just a shame that the number of passengers to benefit from it is going to be vanishingly small

 

[30907]

Say you're going Herne Hill to Victoria. Off peak fare is something like £2.40 each way, but would take an hour RRB+train from DMK. Less than half that time TFL bus and tube but fare would be double

Service bus is allowed 6min, say 10. Train takes 10. Even with a 25min wait that's not an hour.
Brixton is impossible as a RRB terminus because the modern road layout would mean buses making a significant detour.

Agreed. By the same token Thameslink could run the RRB to Elephant and Castle when not running via Catford (rather than Herne Hill).

And Elephant is even worse as a bus interchange, not to mention lacking step-free access.
Both HNH and DMK are sensible places for buses to terminate and accessible.

 

[Oxfordblues]

I remember once there was a booked Sunday possession between Chester and Llandudno Junction, but it was cancelled at the last minute. TfW managed to reinstate their trains, but the then Virgin Trains didn't. Staff at Llandudno Junction were then left with the ridiculous situation of having to direct passengers with Virgin-Trains-only tickets to the rail-replacement buses, while all other ticket-holders could happily proceed by rail!

 

[Timmyd]

Service bus is allowed 6min, say 10. Train takes 10. Even with a 25min wait that's not an hour.
Brixton is impossible as a RRB terminus because the modern road layout would mean buses making a significant detour.

And Elephant is even worse as a bus interchange, not to mention lacking step-free access.
Both HNH and DMK are sensible places for buses to terminate and accessible.

If that were the case they’d carry passengers. They don’t. You’re forgetting the need for buses to go round the houses - eg negotiating the one way at Herne Hill to use the particular stop at Dulwich Road can easily take 5-6 mins alone