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Police Firearms: The fallout from NX121

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transportphoto

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I’m conscious that conversation here is very easily sliding towards discussing the specific case of NX121 - it’s probably wise we stick to the implications and fall out that has happened as a result. The legal case is still ongoing.

I’d be intrigued further to know what has convinced the officers who have returned to armed duties to do so. Pure hindsight?
 
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AlterEgo

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Trying to use a car as a weapon would seem to be something you would defend against.
As the circumstances are not known it is unwise to speculate, but trying to get clear of a roadblock may or may not involve the threat of serious injury or death to an officer. The evidence in the case will be key.
 

ComUtoR

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somewhat cynical but…..
If I was involved in organised crime, particularly drug supply needing transport and armed enforcement/protection, I would make sure I had the connections in my local community and media to create ‘public’ uproar leading to stop and search and armed police use being restricted. Even easier now you can do it yourself via rumours and accusations on social media
Just a variation on how gangs have always operated I guess….the Krays were lovely boys etc.

Imagine living in a community where stop and search is used to target you specifically because of the colour of your skin. Imagine a community where you live in fear of the police because they can do whatever they like with impunity. Imagine a community where the Police are ineffective and worth about as much as a concrete parachute. Imagine a community where the local nonce gets more protection from the Police than a single Mum scared of her abusive ex partner. Imagine being hated by those who are there to protect you.

Now imagine giving those people guns.
 

cactustwirly

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Imagine living in a community where stop and search is used to target you specifically because of the colour of your skin.
That is illegal, under PACE the police need a reasonable suspicion that they are carrying drugs, firearms or linked to a crime.
 

renegademaster

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The case really should be approached like train incident cases are. I'm aware this isn't how common law works but, I think it better off it did

First of all, are the current police guidelines justified for use of lethal force in the situation prosecution claimed happened (If yes case stops here, nobody in trouble)

Was the guidelines being followed by the officer, but said guidelines were found to be wrong (buck falls on police, revise guidelines)

Was the situation found to be wrong and the officer ignored guidelines (responsibility on officer)
 

Towers

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Imagine living in a community where stop and search is used to target you specifically because of the colour of your skin. Imagine a community where you live in fear of the police because they can do whatever they like with impunity. Imagine a community where the Police are ineffective and worth about as much as a concrete parachute. Imagine a community where the local nonce gets more protection from the Police than a single Mum scared of her abusive ex partner. Imagine being hated by those who are there to protect you.

Now imagine giving those people guns.
To offer balance then; what are your thoughts on why a member of said community was in a car with a firearms marker, driving it at police officers?

These things are, as ever, a two way street, and the issues very complex.
 
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ComUtoR

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To offer balance then;

What balance ? The community hates the Police, their reputation is in mud and still sliding. Do they still do a good job, do we need them ? Yes to both and there are some who do a good job. The Police can and often do make a difference to society and directly in the local community.

People want to believe they all act like Nick Berry but many of us see them acting like John Thaw.

what are your thoughts on why a member of said community

Which 'community' was I referring to Vs the one your thinking of ? Part of the problem is that it is too easy to narrow our thoughts and chuck in a few stereotypes and prejudices to justify an outcome

was in a car with a firearms marker, driving it at police officers?

And that justifies Murder? He's a wrong 'un, shoot him.

These things are, as ever, a two way street, and the issues very complex.

They are complex and maybe we should look at the entire incident and not just the final stage. Maybe we should also look at why we are, where we are.
 

66701GBRF

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And that justifies Murder? He's a wrong 'un, shoot him.
That’s for the court to decide if it is murder or not. I don’t know the case but hypothetically if a car is driven at an officer then in my personal opinion that’s does warrant use of deadly force.

 

ComUtoR

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I don’t know the case but hypothetically if a car is driven at an officer then in my personal opinion that’s does warrant use of deadly force.

Should we arm our traffic cops then ? Is the use of the Pit manoeuvre therefore use of deadly force ? Can an Officer heading to an incident go 83.9mph in a built up area using this very deadly weapon ?
 

renegademaster

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Should we arm our traffic cops then ? Is the use of the Pit manoeuvre therefore use of deadly force ? Can an Officer heading to an incident go 83.9mph in a built up area using this very deadly weapon ?
It was only very recently that officers where allowed to ram motorbikes fleeing from a crime, and it's still very strict rules about when it can be used(only at low speed basically). They can't just try to run down a crim fleeing on foot, yes it would be considered attempted murder
 

DarloRich

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People want to believe they all act like Nick Berry but many of us see them acting like John Thaw.
exactly my view - Although I would say Regan ( who I assume you mean by John Thaw rather than Morse ;) ) wasn't bent - he was direct/firm but decent. That was the point.

( it was also in the days before PACE)
 

66701GBRF

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Should we arm our traffic cops then ? Is the use of the Pit manoeuvre therefore use of deadly force ? Can an Officer heading to an incident go 83.9mph in a built up area using this very deadly weapon ?
Sounds like you have some issue with classing a moving vehicle as a deadly weapon in such circumstances.
 

transportphoto

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Another case that has resurfaced from the IOPC, this one seems to have been bounced around between various courts/agencies

Met Police Press Release said:
The Metropolitan Police Service is reviewing a decision by the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) that misconduct proceedings should be brought against the firearms officer, known as W80, for the fatal shooting of Jermaine Baker eight years ago.

W80 was part of a firearms team deployed to intercept a car containing a gang who were attempting to break a dangerous criminal out of custody. An imitation firearm was found in the car.

Deputy Commissioner Lynne Owens said:
“Today’s announcement follows protracted legal proceedings which we know have had a significant personal impact on Mr Baker’s family, the officer, their family and colleagues.

“A public inquiry, concluded in July 2022, determined Mr Baker was lawfully killed. We disagreed with the IOPC decision to direct we hold a gross misconduct hearing for W80 and wrote in detail to the IOPC inviting it to review and reconsider its direction. We wrote to the IOPC more than a year ago and have today been informed of its decision.

“The IOPC has told us that the direction to bring proceedings stands and we must hold a misconduct hearing. We will review the IOPC decision and reasons and consider our next steps.

“We note that the IOPC has asked the MPS to consider asking another force to hold the hearing to provide additional reassurance about the independence of the process.

“We do not accept that our wider call for support and legal reassurance for armed officers impinges upon our independence, nor the impartiality of the misconduct hearing process.

“We will be seeking legal advice in light of the IOPC’s request.

“Last week, the Commissioner wrote an open letter to the Home Secretary calling for reforms intended to simplify and speed up the process by which officers are held to account, particularly when they use force in the course of their duties.

“We welcome the announcement of a review by the Home Office which we hope will bring much needed clarity about the legal powers of armed officers and the threshold for investigating police use of force.

“We will engage fully with the review with a view to avoiding the sort of delay witnessed in this case, achieving greater clarity and providing better protection for the public.

“Our firearms officers do an incredibly difficult job in some of the most challenging and often dangerous circumstances. It is right and they expect and accept their actions are open to independent scrutiny – but officers need sufficient legal protection to enable them to do their job and keep the public safe, with confidence it will be applied consistently and without fear or favour.”

Case Background

On 11 December 2015, during a planned intelligence-led police operation to prevent an organised criminal gang breaking a dangerous criminal out of lawful custody, W80 shot and killed Jermaine Baker as he sat in a vehicle with others in Wood Green.

Mr Baker was not in possession of a firearm. An imitation firearm, in the style of a black Uzi sub-machine gun, was recovered from the rear of the car.

The shooting of Mr Baker was referred to the then Independent Police Complaints Commission (now the Independent Office for Police Conduct ) on the day of the incident.
On 16 December 2015, W80 was suspended from duty.

In June 2016, the criminal gang who took part in the plot was jailed for a total of 27 years.

In November 2016, the IPCC investigation concluded that W80 had a case to answer for gross misconduct for his use of lethal force.
In June 2017, the Crown Prosecution Service decided that W80 would not be charged with any criminal offence. W80’s suspension was lifted and the officer returned to work.

In March 2018, the IOPC recommended that W80 should face misconduct proceedings. The Met did not agree and did not follow the recommendation. The Met disagreed with the IOPC as to the correct self-defence test that applied in respect of police disciplinary proceedings. The Met contended that the criminal law test of self-defence applied. The IOPC maintained that the civil law test applied.

In May 2018, the IOPC directed the Met to start disciplinary proceedings. That direction was challenged by W80 in a judicial review claim that was taken all the way to the Supreme Court. At the first hearing of the case, the Divisional Court decided that the criminal law test applied. The Court of Appeal decided that neither the criminal law test nor the civil law test applied and that the test was simply the wording of the use of force standard in the police Standards of Professional Behaviour i.e. was the force used reasonable, proportionate and necessary in the circumstances. In its judgment on 5 July 2023, the Supreme Court decided that the civil law test applied. Read more: https://www.supremecourt.uk/cases/uksc-2020-0208.html.

An independent public inquiry heard detailed evidence about the circumstances in which W80 shot and killed Mr Baker. In July 2022, the inquiry’s report was published and included a narrative conclusion. HHJ Clement Goldstone QC’s report found that “W80 shot Mr Baker because he honestly believed that Mr Baker posed a lethal threat and that it was reasonably necessary for him to shoot in order to defend himself” and that “Mr Baker was lawfully killed“.

In September 2022, the MPS wrote in detail to the IOPC inviting them to review and reconsider their direction.
On 29 September 2023, the IOPC maintained their direction that a gross misconduct hearing for W80 should be held.
(https://news.met.police.uk/news/met...ng-for-officer-who-shot-jermaine-baker-473010)

Eight years later, and having been suspended and returned to work in the middle, this officer is now facing gross misconduct allegations (again). How is the system so broken?

Is the IOPC looking for a sacrificial lamb?
 
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Ediswan

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Eight years later, and having been suspended and returned to work in the middle, this officer is now facing gross misconduct allegations (again). How is the system so broken?
These are the same 'gross misconduct' proceedings that were directed in 2016. The officer concerned has been challenging that direction, up to the Supreme Court. The court recently ruled against him.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66959250
In 2016, the Crown Prosecution Service decided the officer, known only as W80, should not face criminal charges.
However, the IOPC told the Met gross misconduct proceedings should be brought against him.
W80 challenged that direction in the courts and in July, after the issue had been considered at three levels of the legal system, the Supreme Court ruled against him.
 

HSTEd

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Eight years later, and having been suspended and returned to work in the middle, this officer is now facing gross misconduct allegations (again). How is the system so broken?

Is the IOPC looking for a sacrificial lamb?
No, it is just that the officer, and the Met, are desperate to avoid these gross misconduct charges going forward.

It is likely that the CPS and Met closed ranks and the IOPC has had to try very hard to get through all that.
 

Meerkat

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Imagine living in a community where stop and search is used to target you specifically because of the colour of your skin. Imagine a community where you live in fear of the police because they can do whatever they like with impunity. Imagine a community where the Police are ineffective and worth about as much as a concrete parachute. Imagine a community where the local nonce gets more protection from the Police than a single Mum scared of her abusive ex partner. Imagine being hated by those who are there to protect you.

Now imagine giving those people guns.
Ok, I have imagined that…..what’s the relevance?
 

Peter Sarf

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Imagine living in a community where stop and search is used to target you specifically because of the colour of your skin. Imagine a community where you live in fear of the police because they can do whatever they like with impunity. Imagine a community where the Police are ineffective and worth about as much as a concrete parachute. Imagine a community where the local nonce gets more protection from the Police than a single Mum scared of her abusive ex partner. Imagine being hated by those who are there to protect you.

Now imagine giving those people guns.
The hands of the police are getting tied more and more. You have to be in the middle of this to see there are a significant number of people who reject law and order - gangs rule. Granted every slip up a bad officer just digs a deeper and deeper hole for law and order.
That is illegal, under PACE the police need a reasonable suspicion that they are carrying drugs, firearms or linked to a crime.
Having been to the scene of the 15 year old black school girl stabbed to death by a 17 year old black boy on Wednesday in Croydon. I was talking to a young black lad who ended up saying "we are to blame for complaining about stop and search". Many around us agreed. I made the point that I would not care if I got stopped all the time if it meant that girl was alive. Another made the point that he felt it was knife carrying people who disliked stop and search.

Is the tail wagging the dog in the case of PACE and the case referred to in this thread ?.

EDIT :-

I was rather struck that while I was a minority ethnicity there that I was seeing/hearing a lot of opinion that believed the boy should have been caught up with by the police and that the murder would have been preventable. There were things said that are best left until after the court case. So I get the impression that there are a lot of people who feel the police are generally getting their hands tied. And at one point the subject of this thread came up.
 
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jon0844

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Before I moved out of London, there were many other friends or associates also looking to leave places like Edmonton and Tottenham (we were all around Enfield/Haringey), some of which looked to move to new developments around Waltham Cross and Cheshunt, or even to further places like Milton Keynes (also being massively developed around that time on the outskirts). They were terrified for their children growing up in a place where someone could walk in and murder someone in a McDonald's (not far from where I was the same evening that happened) in full view of customers.

They all wished the police could do more to deal with the issues, and we're talking about the late 90s, early 2000s here.. not recent times.

I do wonder if the fact that most of the crimes appear to be drug/gang related and not random, the police are in a way not bothering because they likely don't have the resources to get involved - and a very real risk of injury if they were to intercept some of the organised gangs.

Sadly, that attitude just means a new generation of people have no fear of the police and the boundaries get pushed further and further. Places become horrible to live in and you'll get innocent bystanders being killed and other incidents because carrying weapons has become normalised.

Even in 'leafy Herts' there have been incidents of people caught with imitation firearms and zombie knives this year.

That said, back in the 90s, I used to get pulled in my car quite a lot. I never had any issue or attitude (nor gave any back), but I'm white so my stories were different to that of my non-white friends. I could be asked why I was out at 2am, occasionally breathalyzed (passing just fine because I never drink and drive) and then talk about my car (a very commonly stolen vehicle) and cars in general, before we virtually shook hands and went our separate ways. I appreciated the police being out there stopping people at a time when my car may well have been stolen from a driveway and I wouldn't even had know until the next day.

Now if only every single stop was like that.
 

Peter Sarf

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Before I moved out of London, there were many other friends or associates also looking to leave places like Edmonton and Tottenham (we were all around Enfield/Haringey), some of which looked to move to new developments around Waltham Cross and Cheshunt, or even to further places like Milton Keynes (also being massively developed around that time on the outskirts). They were terrified for their children growing up in a place where someone could walk in and murder someone in a McDonald's (not far from where I was the same evening that happened) in full view of customers.

They all wished the police could do more to deal with the issues, and we're talking about the late 90s, early 2000s here.. not recent times.

I do wonder if the fact that most of the crimes appear to be drug/gang related and not random, the police are in a way not bothering because they likely don't have the resources to get involved - and a very real risk of injury if they were to intercept some of the organised gangs.

Sadly, that attitude just means a new generation of people have no fear of the police and the boundaries get pushed further and further. Places become horrible to live in and you'll get innocent bystanders being killed and other incidents because carrying weapons has become normalised.

Even in 'leafy Herts' there have been incidents of people caught with imitation firearms and zombie knives this year.

That said, back in the 90s, I used to get pulled in my car quite a lot. I never had any issue or attitude (nor gave any back), but I'm white so my stories were different to that of my non-white friends. I could be asked why I was out at 2am, occasionally breathalyzed (passing just fine because I never drink and drive) and then talk about my car (a very commonly stolen vehicle) and cars in general, before we virtually shook hands and went our separate ways. I appreciated the police being out there stopping people at a time when my car may well have been stolen from a driveway and I wouldn't even had know until the next day.

Now if only every single stop was like that.
It does get difficult if the person being stopped gets confrontational. I always felt if I got confrontational it would look like I was up to no good.

Myself and my friends got a right roasting from a police officer once (1978). We were students sitting on kids rides (the coin operated ones) and the shopping centre was all but closed for the evening. He could have been more polite (but was probably being over assertive) but we were not going to kick off over it.

Another time we got stopped by about 6 men they were a bit cagey and said they were police. Eventually they said they believed we were armed. We just went a bit incredulous I suppose. But if we had done a runner would we have got shot ?. Would that have been wrong ?. They quickly realised we were not who they were after. That was in Chatham about 1978 - I wonder what Chatham is like compared to Croydon nowadays.

I got stopped in my car once. I pulled over while the police were behind me with blue lights on. Asked why I jumped a red. I could not recall but I think it was a light changing when there were a long way behind me. Anyway they ended up asking if I was drunk. Hadn't drunk for about a week was the answer. They asked to smell my breath (so not traffic) - negative. On my way. I could have waited for them to get in front of me, I could have let it become a chase, I could have got angry. But what for ?.

Your right - I notice more and more ferral behaviour in Croydon. We have started going shopping to Bromley because the atmosphere there is quieter and more civilised. Does help that the place does not look like it is closing down. Time to move out really.
 

jon0844

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I guess if I was getting stopped on a regular basis, my opinions might change somewhat, especially if the police were heavy handed from the off as we've all seen on YouTube (albeit, sometimes videos are cut off or edited so you don't see what happened just before).
 

Peter Sarf

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I guess if I was getting stopped on a regular basis, my opinions might change somewhat, especially if the police were heavy handed from the off as we've all seen on YouTube (albeit, sometimes videos are cut off or edited so you don't see what happened just before).
That's why more and more police, security and even revenue inspectors are wearing body worn cameras. Too much trial by social media otherwise.
 

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It does get difficult if the person being stopped gets confrontational. I always felt if I got confrontational it would look like I was up to no good.
This often comes up in the Disputes section of this forum: the "Attitude Test". I'm sure beat coppers probably have a similar "rule of thumb" when they stop someone.

Years ago I alighted from a train at West Croydon where Police were doing an operation with sniffer dogs at the exits. I, being a rather naive 19 year old with undiagnosed autism, recently arrived in the big smoke from rural Yorkshire, decided to cut through the newsagents shop simply to avoid getting in their way. To the coppers, this obviously looked like I was trying to evade them, so a couple of them followed me and called me back. As soon as they spoke to me I understood why they thought my behaviour was suspicious (which it was) so complied with their polite request that I allow the sniffer dogs to do their thing. Had I got shirty with them they would understandably have been a bit more aggressive with me in return.
 

jon0844

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That's why more and more police, security and even revenue inspectors are wearing body worn cameras. Too much trial by social media otherwise.

They don't always help though. Who sees the body cam footage? It can't just be downloaded and posted online to counter the YouTube/TikTok video that has been heavily edited and stirred up mass anger in a community. In some cases, parts of the video or stills might be produced but likely months or years down the line at an inquiry.
 

Meerkat

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I guess if I was getting stopped on a regular basis, my opinions might change somewhat, especially if the police were heavy handed from the off as we've all seen on YouTube (albeit, sometimes videos are cut off or edited so you don't see what happened just before).
Unsurprisingly all the perfectly legal and friendly stop and searches don’t get put on YouTube!
chicken and egg. Do they have previous experience that makes them film a stop and search or are they confrontational and videoing is part of failing the attitude test?
Whatever the legalities I can’t imagine anyone but the most placid folk not being irritated by being filmEd accusingly whilst trying to do their job.
It’s also a spiral. The constant accusations make the police go ‘them and us’, and that will make only the more alpha coppers want to work there.
 

jon0844

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The Sovereign Citizen movement is growing, thanks to YouTube, and while it's MOSTLY a US thing it has picked up in the UK and Australia. Along with the 'auditors' that go around, it's all about creating content which means finding a way to get said content.

YouTube is clamping down on some of it, and demonetising some channels, but there's still TikTok and the like.

However, I'd like to make it clear that while there are now many people that are looking for battles to get clout, there is still a problem with some people and how they're treated for routine stops. Many incidents aren't filmed, and of course many incidents go without any problem.

There are clearly people who want to create a division, and encourage people to refuse to cooperate with the police or not trust them. That isn't helpful either, even if there are many justifiable reasons in history.
 

Peter Sarf

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They don't always help though. Who sees the body cam footage? It can't just be downloaded and posted online to counter the YouTube/TikTok video that has been heavily edited and stirred up mass anger in a community. In some cases, parts of the video or stills might be produced but likely months or years down the line at an inquiry.
The body worn cameras don't immediately help with the trial by social media problem. They can be usefully published AFTER the court case of course. Where the body worn cameras are very useful is they provide unbiased evidence for the trial. The risk is social media content influences witnesses and jurors so the body worn footage helps provide the court with an impartial view.

But social media footage does unfortunately continue to provide fodder for the knee jerk reaction brigade where a riot is what they prefer.
 
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