Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Mollman]

TfGM should totally be given more control and the ability to run the whole of the transport system like TFL do. Transport around Manchester is a mess. We need an Oyster style system across busses, trams, and trains, not separate systems for each.

Except when TfGM introduced Get Me There it was a mess because Metrolink only accepted the App and buses only accepted the Smartcard!

 

[supervc-10]

Absolutely- because they couldn't control anything outside of the trams! They run the tram but can't enforce anything with the buses.

 

[Chester1]

If Wigan-Lostock and Victoria-Stalybridge are wired then the CLC stoppers would be an excellent choice for the Northern 769s (or if Northern lease TfWs once their short lease is up). They would provide a much needed capacity increase and speed up very slow journey times.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nah, too underpowered and almost no electric running. 195s would be best.

 

[supervc-10]

If Wigan-Lostock and Victoria-Stalybridge are wired then the CLC stoppers would be an excellent choice for the Northern 769s (or if Northern lease TfWs once their short lease is up). They would provide a much needed capacity increase and speed up very slow journey times.

Does anything electric run on the CLC lines at the Manchester end? I don't think I've ever seen anything electric run past Cornbrook while waiting for trams.

Re what @Bletchleyite is saying- doesn't a 769 have similar performance on diesel to 150s? Because the CLC trains are currently mostly Sprinters aren't they?

 

[Chester1]

Nah, too underpowered and almost no electric running. 195s would be best.

195s would be overkill on stoppers and not provide sufficient capacity. They are suitable for CLC express services. If the GWR modification to allow changing modes on the go can be done at a reasonable cost there is sufficient electrification to make it worthwhile (Liverpool Lime Street to South Parkway and Old Trafford to Oxford Road).

Does anything electric run on the CLC lines at the Manchester end? I don't think I've ever seen anything electric run past Cornbrook while waiting for trams.

Re what @Bletchleyite is saying- doesn't a 769 have similar performance on diesel to 150s? Because the CLC trains are currently mostly Sprinters aren't they?

I don't think the wires are used often. Unfortunately the stoppers are mostly pacers. The 769s would improve timings using both diesel and electric power vs today. Many of the stations have a very poor service e.g. a service every other hour because of the difficulty for timetabling more stops. This will change once pacers go and the CLC stoppers are run by 150s but a 769 cannot be short formed and the electric section should offset the slower diesel timings.

 

[Bletchleyite]

195s would be overkill on stoppers and not provide sufficient capacity.

But they are the only DMUs which will, due to the mechanical gearbox, have EMU-like acceleration, which with so many stops is sorely needed.

Ideally it needs wiring, but absent that they're the only thing that would take minutes off.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Does anything electric run on the CLC lines at the Manchester end? I don't think I've ever seen anything electric run past Cornbrook while waiting for trams.

Electric freight runs to Trafford Park - that's what the wires are there for.
Northern used to run EMUs to Old Trafford Football Ground station on match days but hasn't for a while.

If any devolved authority gets to do network development it will be Transport for the North rather than TfGM.
They are currently the silent party in all the angst about services in the north, but are supposed to be setting priorities and tooling up to manage the local franchises.
TfGM's remit is too localised.

 

[jfollows]

The Wigan to Alderley Edge service is desperate for decent rolling stock after a year of Pacers, particularly after those in electrified track south of Manchester feel as if they've gone back decades with that service.

Absolutely, I'm no longer a commuter but I would say the current local service is worse than the one in September 1970 when I started commuting. The people on the ground obviously work hard to make the best of an unworkable timetable but the timekeeping is still bad and the rolling stock terrible. Yes, I know other parts around Manchester have had to tolerate the terrible rolling stock for years, but the comparison with pre-May 2018 here is telling. In 1970 there was a reliable electric service Manchester-Wilmslow every 15 minutes. Oh well. "Jam tomorrow" is the way the railways work at the moment.

 

[Mathew S]

The diagrams however are written to interwork with Wigan - Stalybridge ie a train will do Wigan to Alderley to Wigan to Staly to Wigan.... and repeat - Victoria to Staly isn't wired either.

At the moment, the diagrams are a mess due to the ludicrous situation of having to interwork Southport services as a sop to pathetic eejits from Merseyside who couldn't deal with changing trains, using the Met or, god forbid, walking to get to Piccadilly.
Taken in its entirety, Wigan NW - Bolton - Alderley - Bolton - Wigan NW - Bolton - Stalybridge - Bolton - Wigan NW is pretty much the ideal route for the 769s. High speed running under the wires combined with lower speed pootling about on diesel on routes where a high capacity, 4-car service is required. Much as I would rather see full electrification and new EMUs, it's not going to happen any time soon, so this seems like an ideal short-term solution.

 

[deltic08]

But the 'short term solution' has been two years and counting.

 

[Llama]

Southport line commuters had a regular service to Bolton, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly and the Airport (and prior to that, Stockport and beyond) which they lost, and in an underhand way, last May. They are left with a slower service via Atherton to North Manchester apart from a few trains per day.

Changing at Salford Crescent to get to Oxford Rd is only viable if you can guarantee actually being able to board the train you are changing to, which you can't, and the same applies with Metrolink - they are rammed solid at Victoria, and even if one can squeeze on the tram there, to get to the same place (say Oxford Rd) takes at least 20 minutes longer than the direct train they were used to.

Recasting the service through from Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton would be the most sensible short term solution to both capacity and stock use and I believe that gauging work was done on the Southport line earlier this year with this in mind.

 

[supervc-10]

Electric freight runs to Trafford Park - that's what the wires are there for.
Northern used to run EMUs to Old Trafford Football Ground station on match days but hasn't for a while.

Ahh OK. I remember seeing Freightliner's 86 on container trains through the Oxford Road-Piccadilly section, but lately I've only been seeing 70s.

EMUs (or, well, anything, even Pacers) to Old Trafford would be great. The MetroLink and the roads around here are awful on match days! Electrifying the CLC lines would make a lot of sense with the infrequent service. Or how about a tram-train? MetroLink style super frequent service, maybe transferring onto the regular MetroLink network at Cornbrook. Although I'm not sure how easily that would fit in with the express services on the route.

 

[hwl]

Ahh OK. I remember seeing Freightliner's 86 on container trains through the Oxford Road-Piccadilly section, but lately I've only been seeing 70s.

70s are probably on Southampton container services.
It is also possible that Ipswich-Crewe is done with 86s then services split with onward diesel haulage.

 

[edwin_m]

Ahh OK. I remember seeing Freightliner's 86 on container trains through the Oxford Road-Piccadilly section, but lately I've only been seeing 70s.

EMUs (or, well, anything, even Pacers) to Old Trafford would be great. The MetroLink and the roads around here are awful on match days! Electrifying the CLC lines would make a lot of sense with the infrequent service. Or how about a tram-train? MetroLink style super frequent service, maybe transferring onto the regular MetroLink network at Cornbrook. Although I'm not sure how easily that would fit in with the express services on the route.

The Trafford Metrolink extension now under construction will provide a tramstop on the other side of the MUFC ground, with crowd control facilities similar to those at the Etihad. Increasing frequency on the CLC needs to take account of the fast trains using the route, so would probably involve having separate stopping services from each end probably with an overlap at Warrington, where there would be turnback tracks so they could get out the way of the fasts. The ones at the Manchester end could be tram-trains, except that there's probably no capacity to run more into the city centre on Metrolink.

 

[supervc-10]

This is where having the GMex as a station could come in useful I do wonder if there's scope for a couple of terminus platforms at Deansgate-Castlefield, perhaps replacing that carpark next to the tram stop. Switch some of the services that currently run all the way through to the east of the city to terminate, and add in some continuous services from a hypothetical extension onto the CLC.

Having the stoppers run from either end to Warrington wouldn't be a bad shout. My thinking around tram-trains was partially to do with their decent acceleration, but I suppose a decent EMU is more than capable of that too! As ever- it seems that filling in wires is the best option to me. Lots of those smaller towns between Manchester and Liverpool could really do with a proper commuter service so people could ditch their cars.

And back onto the 769s- they're the perfect train for that sort of service right now. As the electrification extends slowly slowly, they can spend more and more time on electric until the line is completely converted, and then move onto the next stage. Kind of like how the 800/802s on GWR are now running on electric more and more (well, when they're not broken and forced to run on diesel, which sounds like it's relatively common on the 800/802 thread!).

 

[Bertie the bus]

This is where having the GMex as a station could come in useful I do wonder if there's scope for a couple of terminus platforms at Deansgate-Castlefield, perhaps replacing that carpark next to the tram stop. Switch some of the services that currently run all the way through to the east of the city to terminate, and add in some continuous services from a hypothetical extension onto the CLC.

Having the stoppers run from either end to Warrington wouldn't be a bad shout. My thinking around tram-trains was partially to do with their decent acceleration, but I suppose a decent EMU is more than capable of that too! As ever- it seems that filling in wires is the best option to me. Lots of those smaller towns between Manchester and Liverpool could really do with a proper commuter service so people could ditch their cars.

That makes no sense at all. Commuters don't want to be dumped on the edge of the city centre. They want to go to Oxford Road or Piccadilly which are far closer to the areas of employment.

 

[driver_m]

That makes no sense at all. Commuters don't want to be dumped on the edge of the city centre. They want to go to Oxford Road or Piccadilly which are far closer to the areas of employment.

The town hall is over the road from there. Hardly the edge of the city centre and close to Spinningfields. .

 

[Bertie the bus]

Deansgate is very much on the edge of the city centre, has far fewer passenger calls – which to anyone suggests is a less desirable station – and those that do call far fewer alight / board than at Piccadilly or Oxford Road.

Obviously it will be closer to somewhere than the others because it would be impossible for it to be further away from everywhere.

 

[supervc-10]

I wasn't suggesting all terminate there- just that some services could, due to congestion between Deansgate-Castlefield and St Peter's Square, and there being little space further along the route to add capacity. My thinking was tram-train from the CLC out to Ashton, with one of the Eccles line trams terminating at Castlefield. There are lots of through trams to which people could transfer- and unlike a regular train, frequency is extremely high, especially at peak time. No matter what happens with the CLC, I'm not entirely sure how many more trams could be routed through that central section without closing the roads that cross the lines. It seems like the section from Cornbrook to Deansgate-Castlefield is less of an issue as it's totally separated and isn't in street running.

Incidentally- for areas like Spinningfields, which has a lot of office blocks, Deansgate-Castlefield and St Peter's Square are more convenient stops than Oxford Road or Piccadilly (although Salford Cresent is closer still). When I was working in Hardman Square, I'd take the tram to St Peter's. Let's not also forget the number of new residential buildings going up near Deansgate, like the 4 huge towers of Deansgate Square!

 

[Greybeard33]

Southport line commuters had a regular service to Bolton, Oxford Rd, Piccadilly and the Airport (and prior to that, Stockport and beyond) which they lost, and in an underhand way, last May. They are left with a slower service via Atherton to North Manchester apart from a few trains per day.

Changing at Salford Crescent to get to Oxford Rd is only viable if you can guarantee actually being able to board the train you are changing to, which you can't, and the same applies with Metrolink - they are rammed solid at Victoria, and even if one can squeeze on the tram there, to get to the same place (say Oxford Rd) takes at least 20 minutes longer than the direct train they were used to.

Recasting the service through from Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton would be the most sensible short term solution to both capacity and stock use and I believe that gauging work was done on the Southport line earlier this year with this in mind.

The intent to route all Southport trains via Atherton to Victoria from May 2018 was hardly a secret. The North West Electrification Programme was launched in 2014 and always included electrification of Lostock to Wigan North Western in its scope. This involved the services to Wigan via Bolton terminating at North Western and originating on electrified lines, in order to make best use of the wires. When Lostock to Wigan electrification was postponed, just enough 319 to 769 conversions were ordered to enable 769 operation of Wigan NW to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services until the wiring is eventually completed. Extension of Alderley Edge services to Southport requires some diagrams to remain DMU worked, under the wires all the way from Bolton to Alderley Edge.

The Southport to Leeds services take 31 minutes from Wallgate to Salford Crescent via Atherton. The peak Southport to Alderley Edge via Bolton services take exactly the same time, so the Bolton route is not quicker.

The peak Alderley Edge service then takes a further 10 minutes from Salford Crescent to Oxford Road and 15 minutes to Piccadilly, versus only 3 minutes to Salford Central and 8 minutes to Victoria for the following Leeds service.

Google Maps gives the walking time from Victoria station to Piccadilly station as 19 minutes, to Oxford Road station 20 minutes. That is at a leisurely walking pace. I can do it several minutes quicker, despite my advancing years. For any workplace that is not actually inside one of the stations, the difference in walking time (time from Victoria minus time from Piccadilly/Oxford Road) would be at least a couple of minutes less.

So even for the absolute worst case of a workplace immediately south of Oxford Road station, the total saving in journey time (train plus walk) is no more than 15 minutes. For a workplace in the Piccadilly area it would be 10 minutes or less.

The employment area around Spinningfields is closer to Salford Central than to Oxford Road. Southport commuters who work here would have a significantly shorter journey time if their train went to Victoria.

 

[driver_m]

Deansgate is very much on the edge of the city centre, has far fewer passenger calls – which to anyone suggests is a less desirable station – and those that do call far fewer alight / board than at Piccadilly or Oxford Road.

Obviously it will be closer to somewhere than the others because it would be impossible for it to be further away from everywhere.

But you know a lot of stuff doesn’t call at Deansgate because if would stitch up the Corridor massively if they did. So it’s bound to have lower figures than Occy Road. For shoppers I agree 100% but workers, it’s probably a lot more spread out across the city centre.

 

[FenMan]

*cough*

The title of this thread is Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Other threads are available for discussing minutiae of timetabling etc in the Greater Manchester area.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Absolutely- because they couldn't control anything outside of the trams! They run the tram but can't enforce anything with the buses.

I'd generally consider WYPTE to be a more incompetent/toothless organisation than TfGM (though that could be a case of "the grass is always greener...") but at least most or all of the bus operators in West Yorkshire are on board (no pun intended!) with the Mcard. Though the system isn't as flexible as Oyster as there's no PAYG option with a daily cap, just the weekly/monthly/quarterly/annual season tickets.

 

[Nymanic]

The 769s appear to be on the move. Just seen one parked under the Tunnel Road bridge (south of Edge Hill ststion), before it slowly inched eastwards at 1900. It turned out to be both of them, seemingly being hauled. No engine or motor noise.

Can't find an RTT movement so far.

 

[adsteamfan]

The 769s appear to be on the move. Just seen one parked under the Tunnel Road bridge (south of Edge Hill ststion), before it slowly inched eastwards at 1900. It turned out to be both of them, seemingly being hauled. No engine or motor noise.

Can't find an RTT movement so far.

View attachment 62749 View attachment 62750 View attachment 62751 View attachment 62752

567U Allerton Depot to Doncaster Works Wabtec - departed at 18:20

 

[Nymanic]

567U Allerton Depot to Doncaster Works Wabtec - departed at 18:20

Thanks for that. Would this be for the modifications to the exhaust?

 

[Greybeard33]

567U Allerton Depot to Doncaster Works Wabtec - departed at 18:20

This move perhaps raises a question mark over the statement upthread that:

Below the solebar. The necessary modification required is known and is being done at the build stage for units not yet delivered. The modification required is very slight; well within the capabilities of Canton and Allerton to exchange the parts necessary.

A hold up, perhaps. But not the main bottleneck.

 

[158820]

Thanks for that. Would this be for the modifications to the exhaust?

Tony Miles on another forum says they need attention to Bogies in Doncaster

 

[a_c_skinner]

need attention to Bogies

Changes to reflect the mass added by the diesel kit? Or the brakes? Or the exhausts?