Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Silverlink]

Richard Clinnick is on a test unit and is commenting on how quiet it is compared to a normal DMU (with a video)
https://twitter.com/Clinnick1/status/1051851920942555136

If the windows were open this would be a completely different story

 

[Bletchleyite]

It sounds exactly like a Class 150 to me.

 

[EE Andy b1]

If the windows were open this would be a completely different story

Funny, just thinking that myself!
Makes a big difference with windows open on a Sprinter. Much louder. I expect the 769s not too be as bad with more modern tech.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I suspect the electric transmission would be quieter and less vibration prone than hydraulic transmission.

 

[jopsuk]

I suspect the electric transmission would be quieter and less vibration prone than hydraulic transmission.

have you ever been in the motor coach of a Mark 3 EMU when the thing is accelerating hard? very noisy! I stick to trailer cars where possible when using a 317 locally.

 

[K.o.R]

have you ever been in the motor coach of a Mark 3 EMU when the thing is accelerating hard? very noisy! I stick to trailer cars where possible when using a 317 locally.

That's the best part of riding on a 319 on AC.

 

[childwallblues]

That's the best part of riding on a 319 on AC.

Agreed. Euxton Balshaw Lane to Wgan North Western when they go for the ton is a beautiful sound.

 

[AM9]

Slightly different aspect but can anybody here say whether the 319s already deployed in the NW have had many problems with door reliability? It was suggested that the environment there was more hostile and deploying a design that already was rumoured to have lots of door issues in Thameslink* service was a high risk decision.
Those sets converted to 769s could have even more diverse new homes so if the doors were that unreliable, they would need something more than 'just getting them going again'.
* I don't remember them being particularly troublesome down here, but that is a personal observation.

 

[AMD]

Certainly in the past year the external doors have been quite reliable. The toilet doors however..........

 

[Paul180]

If I have read correctly GWR are going to use some these trains on the North Downs Line are they not going to have problems at Crowthorne, Sandhurst, Blackwater, Farnborough North, Chilworth, Gomshall, Dorking Deepdene and Betchworth Stations with the length of the platforms been to short.

North Camp, Ash and Dorking West I think should be OK.

Reading, Workinham, Guildford, Reigate, Redhill and Gatwick are OK

The Class 165/166 are about 70m? for a three carriage train and the Class 319 are about 80m? for a four carriage train as they can't be shorten to three carriage are there any planes to extend the platforms or will the trains be fitted with some form of select door operation.

 

[FGW_DID]

The Class 165/166 are about 70m? for a three carriage train and the Class 319 are about 80m? for a four carriage train as they can't be shorten to three carriage are there any planes to extend the platforms or will the trains be fitted with some form of select door operation.

Yep correct. 16x vehicles are 23m so a 3car will be 69m. 319s/769s are the same as the 387s (20m per vehicle). Presume some form of SDO will be fitted when converted to 769?

 

[FGW_DID]

While we are on the subject of the GWR version, starting mid November - mid Dec, there will be 4x 319s (NOT 769s) delivered to Reading TCD for training purposes. Units will be Loco hauled to Reading (presume it will be ROG operated.)

 

[Surreyman]

Most of the stations you mention can easily take a 4 car, some of them more, although they might have to adjust the signalling in some cases.
Sandhurst and Deepdene are the probable 2 which would need to be lengthened, they are both 'new' i.e not Victorian, lightweight construction - mostly timber? Also both stations are 'up in the air i.e on embankments reached by steps, I wouldn't imagine it would be too technically challenging to extend by 10 metres, you can guarantee it would cost plenty.
As you say 165 carriages are @ 23M, so a 3 car = 70m, 319/769 carriages @ 20m, so 4 car = 80m.
Not sure if SDO possible with a 769?

 

[swt_passenger]

10m should probably be achievable by building up the ramps to level. Of course not possible if it’s the only normal access, but it may work in some places.

 

[Surreyman]

As far as I am aware neither Sandhurst or Deepdene have ramps, Deepdene definitely does not, I remember Deepdenes platforms being extended a few feet eastwards @ 1992/93 when the 166s came in.

 

[big all]

deepdeen stairs sandhust ramps to the road bridge both sides
clearly visible on google earth street veiw

 

[Surreyman]

big all
We are talking about different things here, by ramps I mean the sloped ends of platforms, see - swt_passengers comment above, extending the platforms by 'building up the ramps to level'.

 

[big all]

ahh fair enough
have spend may a bored afternoon on a stopper quiet end on tadpoles the odd crompton mechanicals and later the turbos watching people bolt up the road at sandhurst as the timings where quite laxed

 

[swt_passenger]

big all
We are talking about different things here, by ramps I mean the sloped ends of platforms, see - swt_passengers comment above, extending the platforms by 'building up the ramps to level'.

Yes, I was speaking about platform end ramps in the general sense, but if the ‘shortest stations’ in the route don’t have them I was probably confusing things.

(One of the best examples of this I remember was at Salisbury, at the west end of P3, where they managed to squeeze the extra few metres length they needed for 10 cars into the footprint of the ramp.)

 

[FenMan]

Changeover between modes is only done when stationary.

I wanted to pick up on this. Presumably the North Downs Line timetable will be tweaked so all services call at Ash to enable a stationary cutover?

 

[LOL The Irony]

LIAR magazine reporting the first Northern unit will enter service in the "first half of 2019".
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...ern-to-introduce-converted-bi-modes-next-year

The first FLEX Class 769 bi-mode units will enter traffic with Northern in the first half of 2019.

The four-car trains are being converted from former Thameslink Class 319 electric multiple units, by fitting MAN engines to the driving vehicles.

Testing of the first set (769434) is under way on the Great Central Railway, with the second train (769456) set to join it soon.

Northern Managing Director David Brown told RAIL on October 9 that he understood the programme was going well, and that everything was in place to introduce the former ‘319s’ in the first half of next year.

Conversion work is being carried out by Brush Traction at Loughborough, with the first production sets at the facility. Engines were being fitted to 319431 (set 3) and 319424 (set 4) during RAIL’s visit on October 15.

Owner Porterbrook is behind the concept of fitting engines to the trains. Commercial Manager Mark Isbern, talking exclusively to RAIL, said that the plan was for two per month to be delivered once the production line was in full swing. As well as eight for Northern there are a further five on order for Transport for Wales, while Great Western Railway has 19 tri-mode FLEX units on order (diesel and AC electric as well as third-rail equipment).

Isbern confirmed that a second production line will be created at Loughborough in November, to support the increasing order book.

 

[Kneedown]

The snag with gas turbines in rail applications has always been the fuel consumption - something to do with having to work at a wide range of power demands. They were fitted to a few trains in the 1970s but went out of favour with rising oil prices. Are more modern ones any better?

I've often wondered whether a battery pack, being kept charged by a small gas turbine running at a continuous speed would be an economical alternative to diesel.

 

[jonesy3001]

Are the "flex" trains being tested on inclines as well incase they go on the man vic - stalybridge shuttle services before the electrification is ready?

 

[hwl]

Are the "flex" trains being tested on inclines as well incase they go on the man vic - stalybridge shuttle services before the electrification is ready?

As they were happy dealing with City Thameslink at 1:29 there shouldn't be much of problem especially as the speed limits and actual speeds on Man Vic - Stalybridge route aren't high even though there is less power on diesel, the torque will be very good due to Electric transmission.

 

[xotGD]

LIAR magazine reporting the first Northern unit will enter service in the "first half of 2019".
https://www.railmagazine.com/news/n...ern-to-introduce-converted-bi-modes-next-year

First half of 2019 = May timetable change?

 

[142Pilot]

As they were happy dealing with City Thameslink at 1:29 there shouldn't be much of problem especially as the speed limits and actual speeds on Man Vic - Stalybridge route aren't high even though there is less power on diesel, the torque will be very good due to Electric transmission.

I don't know as I have never been on Thameslink but was the 1:29 gradient climbed from a standstill?

The bank at miles platting is underestimated due to the gradient, it's the starting and maintaining 25mph out of Victoria that is the problem.

Freight do it generally with a run up and a bit over the 25mph through the platforms.

 

[samuelmorris]

I don't know as I have never been on Thameslink but was the 1:29 gradient climbed from a standstill?

The bank at miles platting is underestimated due to the gradient, it's the starting and maintaining 25mph out of Victoria that is the problem.

Freight do it generally with a run up and a bit over the 25mph through the platforms.

Pretty much, the train is already on a visible incline when loading at the platform, and it only increases from there.

 

[142Pilot]

Good to know.

It's a fear of mine, sliding backwards down the bank there, when taking a 1 engined pacer demic up the bank.....

 

[notlob.divad]

First half of 2019 = May timetable change?

So only ~1 year late. That is good going for UK railways these days.

 

[notlob.divad]

Are the "flex" trains being tested on inclines as well incase they go on the man vic - stalybridge shuttle services before the electrification is ready?

I am certainly waiting to see it in action on a 'real' route. Lower power and higher weight, specifically weight on none powered wheels, is only going to have a negative effect on acceleration and hill climbing ability.