Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[The_Engineer]

And a lot that is, is at 3kV DC (although some is 25kV AC).

Also, I saw a load of ex-BR stuff sitting in sidings in the central North Island.

The ex-BR stock has mostly been replaced by brand new ROTEM 25kV ac emus in Auckland, plus they have just replaced the 1500V dc Wellington area suburban stock with more new ROTEM emus. They are therefore not in the market for any second-hand stuff. They don't have any 3000 V dc lines, by the way.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Just think if we would have still had a Derby Technical Centre like in British Rail days supported by all TOCs & FOCs then Britain's once engineering excellence could have maybe come up with some of the solutions to projects like FLEX long before they were needed

This. But I guess that's too logical and easy for government.

 

[EE Andy b1]

The ex-BR stock has mostly been replaced by brand new ROTEM 25kV ac emus in Auckland, plus they have just replaced the 1500V dc Wellington area suburban stock with more new ROTEM emus. They are therefore not in the market for any second-hand stuff. They don't have any 3000 V dc lines, by the way.

Yes i must admit when i was over in New Zealand 3 years back there were some new EMUs that were being introduced and the old Mk2 stock was down to a minimum.
So good on them trying to bring there railways upto date.
I think i read that they were wanting to get rid of there older electric freight loco's and replace with new build diesel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must confess that personally I've never seen a 319 "zip" anywhere......

They quite happily do the ton on the south WCML.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm depressed by this. The idea of quick, cheap(ish) rolling stock in the North that would zip along on the electrified main line but then potter off reliably to Barrow, Windermere, under the bridge at Wigan, round the Halton Curve and so on seemed so attractive, yet here we are into yet another overrun/overspend scenario that seems not typical of the railways but universal. I am depressed by this. I know this post adds nothing.

I absolutely agree. This is just saying to me that they should have gone Stadler in the first place.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I absolutely agree. This is just saying to me that they should have gone Stadler in the first place.

I'm with you!

I'm sure a tag on order could be sorted but the Wales franchise is in there with Stadler as well so any order is going to be while off now.

But then again nobody seems to know when Flex will be ready, for sure.

So Northern get a Stadler order in anyway.

 

[LOL The Irony]

A Bi-mode CAF is more likely for Northern.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A Bi-mode CAF is more likely for Northern.

If CAF offer it, converting maybe 10-15 of the EMU order to bi mode would probably be sensible, ideally 3 car sets to allow portion working.

 

[EE Andy b1]

A Bi-mode CAF is more likely for Northern.

So come on Northern get an order in for CAF Bi-mode.
Then at least have a compatible to some extent fleet. Something we never do in the UK.

 

[pemma]

If CAF offer it, converting maybe 10-15 of the EMU order to bi mode would probably be sensible, ideally 3 car sets to allow portion working.

It's claimed the 195s would be suitable to convert to dual powered DEMUs at a later date if needed. However, I think CAF need to produce actual plans for conversions if more were to be ordered on the basis that they are good to convert later on, otherwise we could have a repeat of the Bombardier Voyager situation.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It's claimed the 195s would be suitable to convert to dual powered DEMUs at a later date if needed.

I'd have thought that the 331 would be more suitable for such an undertaking.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Just think if we would have still had a Derby Technical Centre like in British Rail days supported by all TOCs & FOCs then Britain's once engineering excellence could have maybe come up with some of the solutions to projects like FLEX long before they were needed.
But why would our government put money into something like that when they can go abroad and import everything and send most profits back out.

It's Bombardier's job to serve the rolling stock market.
Only they ignored diesels after the 172, and couldn't produce an economic bi-mode Voyager even when its design came from within the company.
So firms like Hitachi, CAF and Stadler have their noses in front, and Alstom is leading on hydrogen powered trains.
Granted DfT policy (Electrify! Don't electrify!) had a part to play.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The ex-BR stock has mostly been replaced by brand new ROTEM 25kV ac emus in Auckland, plus they have just replaced the 1500V dc Wellington area suburban stock with more new ROTEM emus. They are therefore not in the market for any second-hand stuff. They don't have any 3000 V dc lines, by the way.

Not to mention they intend to stop using electric traction on the North Island Main Trunk (only wired in 1988).
It was never wired at the extremities, only the central mountain section Palmerston North-Hamilton.
The economics favour throughout diesel haulage instead of renewing the OHLE and electric locos.

 

[HLE]

Railway Magazine suggested they will be on the GCR later this month. We'll see.

Had Boycie’s laugh from only fools and horses going round my head as I read this.

I doubt they’ll appear on the GCR this month.

 

[Domh245]

It's claimed the 195s would be suitable to convert to dual powered DEMUs at a later date if needed. However, I think CAF need to produce actual plans for conversions if more were to be ordered on the basis that they are good to convert later on, otherwise we could have a repeat of the Bombardier Voyager situation.

It'd be more of a rebuild than a conversion. The driveline is purely mechanical and there isn't a pantograph well, so you would need to hack the roof open (or build another car), and simultaneously rip out the current transmissions and replace it with a generator, inverter, and motor setup.

 

[edwin_m]

It'd be more of a rebuild than a conversion. The driveline is purely mechanical and there isn't a pantograph well, so you would need to hack the roof open (or build another car), and simultaneously rip out the current transmissions and replace it with a generator, inverter, and motor setup.

Given that they are building both simultaneously, it's possible that the bodyshells and bogies have common fixings for either diesel or electric traction equipment and therefore it might be relatively easy to swap one for the other later. The pantograph/transformer would probably be a new build centre car as you suggest (I assume this is where they are on a 331). But this would result in an EMU not a bi-mode, or at best a neither-one-nor-the-other train where the diesel and electric drove different bogies. A true bi-mode will have electric motors that can be driven either by a transformer or a diesel generator, and for that CAF would need to fit a diesel engine and alternator on at least two cars when they already have electric traction equipment on two and the pan/transformer on the third (of probably four maximum).

 

[EE Andy b1]

This is where Stadler seem to come out top in my book, not that we have seen there Bi-mode units in this country yet, and not that they are fit for all users.
But to be able with a little work just to remove the power car(or whatever they call them) with diesel engines in when no longer required and then its just a pure EMU seems a good solution and add another vehicle to make the set longer.
The problem with the Class 22X idea was to try and retrofit afterwards and all the problems that would entail. It could have been done but again at what cost!

 

[AM9]

Given that they are building both simultaneously, it's possible that the bodyshells and bogies have common fixings for either diesel or electric traction equipment and therefore it might be relatively easy to swap one for the other later. The pantograph/transformer would probably be a new build centre car as you suggest (I assume this is where they are on a 331). But this would result in an EMU not a bi-mode, or at best a neither-one-nor-the-other train where the diesel and electric drove different bogies. A true bi-mode will have electric motors that can be driven either by a transformer or a diesel generator, and for that CAF would need to fit a diesel engine and alternator on at least two cars when they already have electric traction equipment on two and the pan/transformer on the third (of probably four maximum).

There's also the different structural requrements imposed by a pantograph well. It's more than just a flat roof for 4 metres, - the body structure needs to be designed to accommodate the reduced stiffness from the change in roof structure.

 

[The_Engineer]

Can we get back to Class 769 please? Please start a new thread for other speculative conversions.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Made one for that.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-northern-if-the-class-769-flex-fails.166643/

 

[EE Andy b1]

Can we get back to Class 769 please? Please start a new thread for other speculative conversions.

Yes we should but so easy to drift when not one Flex has turned a wheel.

 

[Bornin1980s]

The latest Railway Magazine article states that the diesel engines are 16 litres. Surely they mean 12 litres?

 

[Domh245]

Yes, wiki indicates that they are fitted with MAN D2876s which are 12.8l horizontal inline 6s

 

[ac6000cw]

Just think if we would have still had a Derby Technical Centre like in British Rail days supported by all TOCs & FOCs then Britain's once engineering excellence could have maybe come up with some of the solutions to projects like FLEX long before they were needed.
But why would our government put money into something like that when they can go abroad and import everything and send most profits back out.

I would point out that Brush Traction have a very long history in railway rolling stock and electric and diesel-electric traction equipment (since 1865!) - if it's sensibly possible to do the FLEX conversions they certainly should be able to handle it. But I thought the original timescales were fairly heroic given they were starting with 30 year old trains - I'm not that surprised the project is running late.

AFAIK this sort of thing isn't the research stuff that the Derby RTC did anyway - it's basic electrical and mechanical engineering design and development work that the BR Derby engineering dept. would have handled (which I assume eventually ended up with Bombardier via BREL/ABB/Adtranz etc.)

The UK does have some excellent engineers - it's more public perception that we don't, not least because they're not generally very 'visible' (engineers are someone that fixes their washing machine, aren't they? ). You get used to this when you work as an engineer...

 

[D365]

The UK does have some excellent engineers - it's more public perception that we don't, not least because they're not generally very 'visible' (engineers are someone that fixes their washing machine, aren't they? ). You get used to this when you work as an engineer...

How many layers of ‘manager’ have we ended up with between us and the public face

 

[jayiscupid]

The ex-BR stock has mostly been replaced by brand new ROTEM 25kV ac emus in Auckland, plus they have just replaced the 1500V dc Wellington area suburban stock with more new ROTEM emus. They are therefore not in the market for any second-hand stuff. They don't have any 3000 V dc lines, by the way.

The Auckland EMUs are from CAF, the Wellington EMUs are from Hyundai Rotem and Mitsui. Interestingly CAF offered to supply some sets with batteries to operate off the wires but the order was amended to regular EMUs when the government committed to electrify the line. If only our government had the same way of thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_AM_class_electric_multiple_unit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_FP_class_electric_multiple_unit

 

[ac6000cw]

How many layers of ‘manager’ have we ended up with between us and the public face

It was ever thus - and provided there aren't to many 'progress' meetings it leaves the engineers to get on with the interesting stuff - the engineering.

 

[ben2012]

hi just wondering has anyone seen this pic and what stages they are currently T

 

[stu99]

https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/northern-flex-bi-mode-debut-getting-closer/
Here is the article, just says they are getting close.

 

[47802]

Hmm spending a lot of time and money on a clapped out old train.