Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[507020]

Couple of things regards to the 769s come the December timetable

769s will no longer go beyond Oxford Rd on planned work
Manchester Piccadilly depot will no longer sign 769s
Two 769s per night will finish at Allerton on the new diagrams, the other diagrams will end at Springs Branch or Newton Heath with no overnight stabling at Vic, Wigan or Southport.

What I noticed is that only 3 trips to Stalybridge on Southport diagrams (some early and late services are provided by other diagrams) will by booked Sprinters, there will be 4 booked Sprinters a day from Southport to Oxford Road.

I can guarantee that regardless there will almost certainly continue to be outstabling at Wigan and Southport, particularly on Sundays.

No - the ban was in place because the cause of the incident was not known. Porterbrook had to bring in specialist engineers to determine that it was a VCB failure and thus not a fault specific to a 769. At which point the electric mode ban was rescinded.

So it is a known fact now. It’s not reasonable to expect to know the exact cause, but Network Rail made the (incorrect) decision to ban 769s from electric mode based on prejudice against their conversion.

Why was it assumed (incorrectly) that it must be a failure specific to 769s until this was proved not to be the case?

 

[gmaguire]

Why was it assumed (incorrectly) that it must be a failure specific to 769s until this was proved not to be the case?

I think it was a precaution more than anything else. If I remember correctly the failed unit was interfering with signals?

 

[D365]

I think it was a precaution more than anything else. If I remember correctly the failed unit was interfering with signals?

Correct.

 

[175001]

I can guarantee that regardless there will almost certainly continue to be outstabling at Wigan and Southport, particularly on Sundays.

Nope. ALL diagrams will start and end at Springs Branch, Allerton or Newton Heath

 

[507020]

Nope. ALL diagrams will start and end at Springs Branch, Allerton or Newton Heath

But how often will 769s inadvertently come off their diagrams?

 

[LowLevel]

But how often will 769s inadvertently come off their diagrams?

For a niche fleet like that with limited traction knowledge I would imagine very rarely if at all.

 

[175001]

But how often will 769s inadvertently come off their diagrams?

Never. They are locked in to work Southport services. At Man Vic, only 2 out of 4 drivers links sign them for instance.

 

[childwallblues]

Are Liverpool drivers involved in getting them to/from Allerton and will they be treated as emus for those journeys?

 

[507020]

For a niche fleet like that with limited traction knowledge I would imagine very rarely if at all.

Never. They are locked in to work Southport services. At Man Vic, only 2 out of 4 drivers links sign them for instance.

Obviously they won’t work anywhere other than Southport, but if one fails and is either replaced by a Sprinter or the service is cancelled, it remains highly likely that 769s will be found stabled at Southport, Wigan and Victoria.

 

[175001]

Well yes obviously.

 

[wrinkley]

On a journey from Wigan to Stalybridge yesterday we saw three 769 sets on the Southport - Stalybridge service, also when dog walking by the railway near Lostock I almost always see 769 on the services that I expect them to be on. Are they now more reliable or am I being too optimistic?

 

[AM9]

On a journey from Wigan to Stalybridge yesterday we saw three 769 sets on the Southport - Stalybridge service, also when dog walking by the railway near Lostock I almost always see 769 on the services that I expect them to be on. Are they now more reliable or am I being too optimistic?

Hi Wrinkley, I hope you are riding on them whilst you can. It seems de rigueur to complain about them but they certainly are much nicer than tatty 150s being thrashed and the ride that we had 18 months ago between Southport and Wigan was speedy and comfortable.

 

[jfollows]

On a journey from Wigan to Stalybridge yesterday we saw three 769 sets on the Southport - Stalybridge service, also when dog walking by the railway near Lostock I almost always see 769 on the services that I expect them to be on. Are they now more reliable or am I being too optimistic?

Six active diagrams for the eight units, so they do seem to have improved a little.
EDIT Diagrams at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/december-2022-timetable-changes.231835/page-61#post-5938036

 

[JBuchananGB]

Also seemingly on the Southport to Oxford Road services. I travelled yesterday afternoon on 769458 Manchester to Southport, delayed by a door fault at Parbold. This in turn delayed 769448 the service from Oxford Road. In the morning it was 769458 which took me from Southport to Manchester.

 

[Geeves]

All of the 769s will be making their way to Allerton over the next day or two, none will be in service for a week or so. I wonder if they will actually come back out

 

[Peter Sarf]

All of the 769s will be making their way to Allerton over the next day or two, none will be in service for a week or so. I wonder if they will actually come back out

Hmm. Could they be joining their GWR and TfL siblings at a scrappy.

 

[scrapy]

All of the 769s will be making their way to Allerton over the next day or two, none will be in service for a week or so. I wonder if they will actually come back out

That's only because of the Hindley engineering works, and them not being permitted to run via Chat Moss. They are expected to be back in service on 15th May.

 

[skyhigh]

Hmm. Could they be joining their GWR and TfL siblings at a scrappy.

Doubt it as they've finally just started installing cab aircon.

 

[david l]

That's only because of the Hindley engineering works, and them not being permitted to run via Chat Moss. They are expected to be back in service on 15th May.

Why can't they run via Chat Moss, as 319's go that way each day from Manchester to Wigan?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Why can't they run via Chat Moss, as 319's go that way each day from Manchester to Wigan?

Maybe pathing issues?

 

[scrapy]

Why can't they run via Chat Moss, as 319's go that way each day from Manchester to Wigan?

They've only been cleared on the routes they have booked work or empty stock moves over. Reliability issues and there not being enough of them about to perform a rescue. Network Rail want to keep them off the WCML as much as possible. They would only be able to run in diesel mode that way anyway so the fuel tanks probably wouldn't last a day.

 

[david l]

Maybe pathing issues?

No, because the booked trains are still running from Southport-Ox Road which will presumably be diesel (and probably short formed....) - perhaps its in the 'too hard' category to stop the 769's at Wigan S Junc to change from diesel to electric and vice versa! despite them running that way from SP to WNW or WW!

 

[Dspatula]

That's only because of the Hindley engineering works, and them not being permitted to run via Chat Moss. They are expected to be back in service on 15th May.

err no they're permitted via Chat Moss, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C01817/2023-05-04/detailed#allox_id=1
but you are probably right as to reason the won't be running.

Last time it was shut it was mainly double 158 sets on the Oxford Road Southport run.

 

[Greybeard33]

They've only been cleared on the routes they have booked work or empty stock moves over. Reliability issues and there not being enough of them about to perform a rescue. Network Rail want to keep them off the WCML as much as possible. They would only be able to run in diesel mode that way anyway so the fuel tanks probably wouldn't last a day.

Can a 319 rescue a 769 if it sits down under the wires?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Can a 319 rescue a 769 if it sits down under the wires?

Mechanically, they can all be rescued by 313 through to 323.

 

[Herefordian]

Mechanically, they can all be rescued by 313 through to 323.

That isn't correct.

Mark 3 derived units aren't compatible with the 1972 EMU or 323s.

 

[LOL The Irony]

That isn't correct.

Mark 3 derived units aren't compatible with the 1972 EMU or 323s.

I said mechanically, not electrically.

 

[Geeves]

A 319 has took some dead 769s back to Allerton in the past and Northern tested 323 to 319 emergency coupling but as you say it would be purely mechanical, out of ideas and options stuff. It would be difficult now as various depots don't all sign the same traction either.

 

[scrapy]

err no they're permitted via Chat Moss, https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C01817/2023-05-04/detailed#allox_id=1
but you are probably right as to reason the won't be running.

Last time it was shut it was mainly double 158 sets on the Oxford Road Southport run.

Should have been clearer, it's the WCML south of Springs Branch that they can't be used on (which obviously stops them being used over Chat Moss from Wigan). They are cleared but Network Rail want to keep them off the WCML as much as possible so they can only go that way with special permission. (Likely to be given for an overnight empty stock move if Prescot route closed, but unlikely for an hourly daytime service when there is alternative traction that can be used).

No, because the booked trains are still running from Southport-Ox Road which will presumably be diesel (and probably short formed....) - perhaps its in the 'too hard' category to stop the 769's at Wigan S Junc to change from diesel to electric and vice versa! despite them running that way from SP to WNW or WW!

Give that faults most likely occur when changing between electric and diesel, stopping at Wigan S Junction to do this is probably out of the question as it would be a bad place to fail if things go wrong. Even a unit reset can take 5-10 minutes and that's without the time spent waiting on the phone to get hold of a maintenance controller.

 

[Herefordian]

I said mechanically, not electrically.

Which still renders them incompatible.

Otherwise, we'd have seen 323s rescuing failed 319s and 769s.

To my knowledge, that's never happened. For a reason.