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Portsmouth & Southsea / Harbour services.

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Flying Claret

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Hi, following on from the thread about the 'Portsmouth direct line' I was wondering how services to the two stations were allocated? I.e. which terminate at P&S and which at the harbour? Is it a legacy from different train companies? Or is it based in where the train originates? Or is it something much more simple?. Thanks.
 
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Somewhere

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Presumably depends whether the train's got enough time to get to the Harbour before coming back

I know most of the Southern trains from Victoria used to go to the Harbour, but they were always late coming back, so they mostly turn at Southsea now
 

jfollows

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There’s also one less platform at Portsmouth Harbour than there used to be, isn’t there? When I lived in Portsmouth in 1984 almost everything seemed to go all the way, a quick glance at a 1988 timetable confirms this. I’d be surprised if time came into it, but more trains and fewer platforms now presumably do.
 

NIT100

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A bit of both turnaround time and platform capacity. For the Southern services to Littlehampton and Victoria, turnaround times at Portsmouth & Southsea are 7 mins and 13 mins respectively, and as the Victoria service joins the Bognor one at Horsham, it is good to have a wider turnaround time.

For the SWR stopping service to Southampton Central, it is the amount of dwell time that is the issue. The journey time is exactly 1 hour, three units are used with one spending almost an hour sitting at Portsmouth & Southsea, so best that it doesn't take up platform space at Harbour.
 

DynamicSpirit

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For the SWR stopping service to Southampton Central, it is the amount of dwell time that is the issue. The journey time is exactly 1 hour, three units are used with one spending almost an hour sitting at Portsmouth & Southsea, so best that it doesn't take up platform space at Harbour.

That sounds incredibly wasteful of resources. Shame there isn't (I don't think?) anywhere useful it could continue to from Southampton for 15 mins before turning round in order to be providing some service to passengers rather than the trains spending 1/3 of their working time sitting idle.
 

DelW

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Pre Covid, the established pattern on the Direct itself was 4tph from Waterloo on the quarter hours - the half-hourly semifasts ran through to Harbour, the hourly through stopper terminated at Portsmouth and Southsea, and the fourth hourly train was a stopper terminating at Haslemere.

Post Covid the timetable has been something of a mess, with one of the semifasts being removed but other services not re-timed, giving a mix of quarter hour and half hour gaps in departures. Initially that meant only one tph to Harbour as the stopper still terminated at PMS. There were other weird ideas like the Haslemere terminators running fast with stops only at Woking, Guildford and Godalming, making them rather pointless and meaning that the through Pompey stopper had to pick up minor stations like Milford and Witley, normally served only by Haslemere trains.

More recently there have been tweaks to remove the worst anomalies, and the stopper has been extended to Harbour, giving it two tph again. But if the future pattern is to be permanently back to the pre-privatisation system of one fast, one slow and one short working, it really needs a proper reworking and a return to 20 minute interval departures. Sadly passenger convenience and logical timetabling seems to be a lower priority than arbitrary cost cutting to whoever currently manages our train services.
 

DynamicSpirit

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I don't have any inside knowledge of the motivations of SWR - so this is just speculation - but I wonder whether what happened is that they removed one of the semi-fasts in response to lower passenger numbers, but then didn't rewrite the timetable to accommodate that because they wanted to leave open the option of reinstating that semi-fast if passenger numbers subsequently returned to normal - and recasting the timetable takes a LOT of work. Hence the weird gaps. (The speculation is informed by that I know that's exactly what happened elsewhere - in SouthEastern territory on the Woolwich line).
 

Gloster

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One of the problems with the current timetable is that passengers from the Isle of Wight have an extended wait for much of the day. Previously the FastCat got in at XX.09 and a Fast to Waterloo left at XX.15: now you have to wait until XX.45. It is a bit better in the opposite direction, but still a slightly longer wait than before, although it does reduce the chances of the passengers coming down the ramp to see the doors being shut. (On one occasion only the first two off a slightly delayed train made it: we ran and hollered, virtually pushed past the gate waving our tickets and heard them clang shut behind us as we boarded.)
 

DelW

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I don't have any inside knowledge of the motivations of SWR - so this is just speculation - but I wonder whether what happened is that they removed one of the semi-fasts in response to lower passenger numbers, but then didn't rewrite the timetable to accommodate that because they wanted to leave open the option of reinstating that semi-fast if passenger numbers subsequently returned to normal - and recasting the timetable takes a LOT of work. Hence the weird gaps. (The speculation is informed by that I know that's exactly what happened elsewhere - in SouthEastern territory on the Woolwich line).
I hope that you're right, and that would be sensible if the timetable reduction is short term. But it has been said on these forums, by apparently well-informed posters, that there is little chance of the missing service being restored any time in the foreseeable future. The loss of season ticket income has hit revenue too severely.
One of the problems with the current timetable is that passengers from the Isle of Wight have an extended wait for much of the day. Previously the FastCat got in at XX.09 and a Fast to Waterloo left at XX.15: now you have to wait until XX.45. It is a bit better in the opposite direction, but still a slightly longer wait than before, although it does reduce the chances of the passengers coming down the ramp to see the doors being shut. (On one occasion only the first two off a slightly delayed train made it: we ran and hollered, virtually pushed past the gate waving our tickets and heard them clang shut behind us as we boarded.)
The other problem, at least in the down direction, was that the journey planner wouldn't show the fast train to Wightlink connection as it was a shorter time than the minimum, meaning it showed every connection as more than one hour. In practice, as you're aware but intending passengers might not have been, if you're in the front coach you can make the connection in around a minute from the train door. I'm not sure whether or not that's still an issue with the current timetable.
 

SAPhil

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One of the problems with the current timetable is that passengers from the Isle of Wight have an extended wait for much of the day. Previously the FastCat got in at XX.09 and a Fast to Waterloo left at XX.15: now you have to wait until XX.45. It is a bit better in the opposite direction, but still a slightly longer wait than before, although it does reduce the chances of the passengers coming down the ramp to see the doors being shut. (On one occasion only the first two off a slightly delayed train made it: we ran and hollered, virtually pushed past the gate waving our tickets and heard them clang shut behind us as we boarded.)
I've stopped using the FastCat because of this!
 

theironroad

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There’s also one less platform at Portsmouth Harbour than there used to be, isn’t there? When I lived in Portsmouth in 1984 almost everything seemed to go all the way, a quick glance at a 1988 timetable confirms this. I’d be surprised if time came into it, but more trains and fewer platforms now presumably do.
Yes there is no platform 2. While there may have been in 1984, its certainly not been there for at least 20 years.

The platform numbering hasn't changed so it's 1,3, 4 & 5
 

pompeyfan

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There are plans for the 1Pxx service to be swapped in the Portsmouth area from May 2024 to improve the Wightlink connection, although I’m not sure on the finer details as to whether that means the up trains are swapped so the stopper now leaves in the path of the xx:45 to keep the balance or if it’s just the down trains are swapped. They’ll need to be a major rework on Havant ASC patch anyway to accommodate all the changes required by Southern.

Hi, following on from the thread about the 'Portsmouth direct line' I was wondering how services to the two stations were allocated? I.e. which terminate at P&S and which at the harbour? Is it a legacy from different train companies? Or is it based in where the train originates? Or is it something much more simple?. Thanks.

Would you be kind enough to link the “Portsmouth direct line” thread you’re referring to please?
 

boiledbeans2

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I don't have any inside knowledge of the motivations of SWR - so this is just speculation - but I wonder whether what happened is that they removed one of the semi-fasts in response to lower passenger numbers, but then didn't rewrite the timetable to accommodate that because they wanted to leave open the option of reinstating that semi-fast if passenger numbers subsequently returned to normal - and recasting the timetable takes a LOT of work. Hence the weird gaps. (The speculation is informed by that I know that's exactly what happened elsewhere - in SouthEastern territory on the Woolwich line).
During weekday peak hours, 4tph down the Portsmouth Direct is restored, e.g. check out the departures from Waterloo from 1700 to 1800.
 

Wychwood93

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There are plans for the 1Pxx service to be swapped in the Portsmouth area from May 2024 to improve the Wightlink connection, although I’m not sure on the finer details as to whether that means the up trains are swapped so the stopper now leaves in the path of the xx:45 to keep the balance or if it’s just the down trains are swapped. They’ll need to be a major rework on Havant ASC patch anyway to accommodate all the changes required by Southern.



Would you be kind enough to link the “Portsmouth direct line” thread you’re referring to please?
This one:

 

DelW

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During weekday peak hours, 4tph down the Portsmouth Direct is restored, e.g. check out the departures from Waterloo from 1700 to 1800.
That's not much use to those of us who don't travel in the peak though :'(

Peak hours always had variations on the normal pattern, including through Portsmouth trains running via Guildford New Line, presumably to avoid congestion on the main line.
I once almost got caught out by one of those when travelling to Woking in the morning peak. Being used to all off peak trains calling at Woking, when I got to the station early I boarded the train before the one I'd intended, without checking its calling pattern. Fortunately I heard the "next station Clapham Junction" announcement at Guildford in time to bale out.
 

Trainguy34

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That sounds incredibly wasteful of resources. Shame there isn't (I don't think?) anywhere useful it could continue to from Southampton for 15 mins before turning round in order to be providing some service to passengers rather than the trains spending 1/3 of their working time sitting idle.
Brockenhurst -
23 Mins each way if slow,
14 Mins each way if non-stop,
could use Platform 1 so space isn't an issue.


Romsey - 18 Mins each way however train 1 Min behind on the Chandlers Ford line.
 

paul1609

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That's not much use to those of us who don't travel in the peak though :'(

Peak hours always had variations on the normal pattern, including through Portsmouth trains running via Guildford New Line, presumably to avoid congestion on the main line.
I once almost got caught out by one of those when travelling to Woking in the morning peak. Being used to all off peak trains calling at Woking, when I got to the station early I boarded the train before the one I'd intended, without checking its calling pattern. Fortunately I heard the "next station Clapham Junction" announcement at Guildford in time to bale out.
Pre Thameslink 2000 I used to love the fast down peak Hastings trains. Despite all the announcements, Oyster wielding Metro Scum would insist on crowding the mainline trains vestibules to London Bridge. I loved the despair on their faces as the train left Waterloo East. ".. the next station is High Brooms. Even better was they had to wait an hour there for the next train back to the smoke ;)
 

swt_passenger

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Brockenhurst -
23 Mins each way if slow,
14 Mins each way if non-stop,
could use Platform 1 so space isn't an issue.


Romsey - 18 Mins each way however train 1 Min behind on the Chandlers Ford line.
Romsey isn’t electrified. Not likely at all.

However, in order to have a reliable turnaround time of say 10 mins at Portsmouth, (rather than the minus 5 minutes as it is now), you need to find about 15 mins somewhere. Can the incoming service be pathed earlier all the way from Southampton? Can the departing service run later all the way to Southampton? Is it important to consider that the service forms a roughly half hourly stopping service between Portsmouth and Fareham opposite the Waterloo via Eastleigh service? Are all the other services south of Portcreek junction in fixed timings, or can they also be moved to suit, noting they’d impact on paths all the way to Victoria, Brighton, or Waterloo?

I haven’t looked at all the knock on effects but I bet it’s not as easy as you think.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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That sounds incredibly wasteful of resources. Shame there isn't (I don't think?) anywhere useful it could continue to from Southampton for 15 mins before turning round in order to be providing some service to passengers rather than the trains spending 1/3 of their working time sitting idle.
It's a shame they don't run every other train fast between St Denys and Swanwick, perhaps with an additional call at Netley or Woolston but I don't think it's necessary as I believe they're getting a regular Southern call soon. This would probably allow for two diagrams vice three, and provide an additional fast Southampton to Portsmouth link alongside the crowded GWR Cardiff services, and it's not as if the likes of Bitterne, Sholing and Hamble are particularly busy.
 

DynamicSpirit

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It's a shame they don't run every other train fast between St Denys and Swanwick, perhaps with an additional call at Netley or Woolston but I don't think it's necessary as I believe they're getting a regular Southern call soon. This would probably allow for two diagrams vice three, and provide an additional fast Southampton to Portsmouth link alongside the crowded GWR Cardiff services, and it's not as if the likes of Bitterne, Sholing and Hamble are particularly busy.

If they ran the Southampton-Portsmouth fast between Swanwick and Southampton, that would save 10-12 minutes which should be enough to allow the service to run with just 2 trains and a 10-12 min turnaround at each end - but to get that, you'd have to run every train fast, not every other train fast. That leaves the problem of what to do with the intermediate stations. You have a freed up unit but that's not sufficient to run a Southampton-Fareham shuttle since that takes 35 minutes each way. Not only that, but doing this doesn't help Portsmouth Harbour because 10-12 minutes at Portsmouth and Southsea doesn't really give you enough time to reliably extend to Portsmouth Harbour.

Most useful in principle I think would be to extend the service to run as a stopping train from Portsmouth Harbour to Totton: That should be doable with 3 units and reasonable turnaround times - so no worries about tying up a Portsmouth Harbour platform for an hour. But I don't believe there's currently any way to turnaround a train at Totton, so it would require infrastructure improvements there.
 

paul1609

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What's interesting about Portsmouth is that in the last year of ORR figures it's busiest station is Fratton followed by Harbour followed by Town (Portsmouth & Southsea). Fratton station desperately needs some serious money spent on it, it's now totally inadequate and an accident waiting to happen with it's short and narrow platforms.
 

Flying Claret

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Fratton is interesting. A 3 platform station with P1 for everything heading out of the city and 2 & 3 for inbound services. Does it need all 3 or would 2 platforms suffice?
 

alistairlees

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Fratton is interesting. A 3 platform station with P1 for everything heading out of the city and 2 & 3 for inbound services. Does it need all 3 or would 2 platforms suffice?
It is frequently used to turn around late-running services. If anything it does not have enough.
 

cav1975

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Fratton is interesting. A 3 platform station with P1 for everything heading out of the city and 2 & 3 for inbound services. Does it need all 3 or would 2 platforms suffice?
Platform 2, at least, is reversible. Not sure about the others.
 

swt_passenger

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Fratton is interesting. A 3 platform station with P1 for everything heading out of the city and 2 & 3 for inbound services. Does it need all 3 or would 2 platforms suffice?
At the last resignalling they altered the S&C to effectively make P3 an equally fast route from Fratton East towards Portsmouth Harbour, ie it’s the main down line with the straight route into Southsea high level P2. So in normal practice down services are split between final destinations of Harbour or Southsea on the approach into Fratton. It also means a late running service heading towards Southsea low level can easily be overtaken.

P2 and P3 are both reversible, in the SA P2 is referred to as the “up/down Fratton” line, but P3 is predominantly used as a down platform.
 

Flying Claret

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At the last resignalling they altered the S&C to effectively make P3 an equally fast route from Fratton East towards Portsmouth Harbour, ie it’s the main down line with the straight route into Southsea high level P2. So in normal practice down services are split between final destinations of Harbour or Southsea on the approach into Fratton. It also means a late running service heading towards Southsea low level can easily be overtaken.

P2 and P3 are both reversible, in the SA P2 is referred to as the “up/down Fratton” line, but P3 is predominantly used as a down platform.
Is there much advantage for harbour trains overtaking P&S trains here? It's only about 2 mins to P&S from Fratton. They could overtake there.
 

pompeyfan

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Is there much advantage for harbour trains overtaking P&S trains here? It's only about 2 mins to P&S from Fratton. They could overtake there.

If a train requires Portsmouth and Southsea low level, it might need to wait for an up train to pass, that means it’s quite common for trains for Portsmouth harbour to pass trains for Portsmouth and Southsea. It’s also useful for holding trains that attach at either PMS or PMH but have arrived out of sequence and need to be put in correct order. Although there’s not much splitting and attaching for GWR in the Portsmouth area (and practically none for Southern) it’s important the right unit is in the right order, especially for fuel mileage purposes.
 

Flying Claret

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If a train requires Portsmouth and Southsea low level, it might need to wait for an up train to pass, that means it’s quite common for trains for Portsmouth harbour to pass trains for Portsmouth and Southsea. It’s also useful for holding trains that attach at either PMS or PMH but have arrived out of sequence and need to be put in correct order. Although there’s not much splitting and attaching for GWR in the Portsmouth area (and practically none for Southern) it’s important the right unit is in the right order, especially for fuel mileage purposes.
That's really interesting thanks. I live in East Lancs but have done the journey to Pompey more times than I can remember, visiting family in North End.
 

hermit

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The other problem, at least in the down direction, was that the journey planner wouldn't show the fast train to Wightlink connection as it was a shorter time than the minimum, meaning it showed every connection as more than one hour. In practice, as you're aware but intending passengers might not have been, if you're in the front coach you can make the connection in around a minute from the train door. I'm not sure whether or not that's still an issue with the current timetable.
Journey planners are still insisting on ignoring the normal connections between Wightlink’s catamarans at both Portsmouth Harbour and Ryde Pierhead, rendering them useless for sensible planning (and surely putting off prospective travellers). Combined with the 35+ minute connection with the fast Waterloo trains at the harbour for most of the day, it produces some staggeringly slow itineraries. Someone travelling from the island will be expected to have spent the best part of two hours waiting for the approved connections on both sides of the Solent before their train from the Harbour even starts to move.

I’m not sure how this works for someone on a timed advance ticket from an island station. If the mainland train is also specified, do they have to hang about at the harbour waiting for it, even though the cat will have delivered them in time to catch one an hour earlier?
 
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