Portsmouth to Southampton/Eastleigh line 70s

[David Dunning]

Recently been using this line a lot and it’s brought back memories of going to school on it in the late 70s. It wasn’t electrified then so was wondering what information forum members had about services then. I remember semi-fast local trains calling only at Woolston Netley and Swanwick as well as stopping ones and also the odd DMU with forward track views from the front seats.

 

[swt_passenger]

Recently been using this line a lot and it’s brought back memories of going to school on it in the late 70s. It wasn’t electrified then so was wondering what information forum members had about services then. I remember semi-fast local trains calling only at Woolston Netley and Swanwick as well as stopping ones and also the odd DMU with forward track views from the front seats.

I remember going from Fareham to Salisbury on a single train in the late 70s, they may have been limited stop to Southampton?

Also there was the regular Fareham - Eastleigh shuttle service, which I suppose formed a good connection to from Waterloo at Eastleigh? (I think the overhead signage at Fareham’s P2 that has been maintained for many years still reads as though that’s a regular service…)

 

[30907]

The basic service from dieselisation in 1957 through to electrification was (from Portsmouth)
hourly all stations Southampton (later Andover, then Romsey, then Southampton again)
hourly all stations Eastleigh (originally Andover, then Romsey; ISTR at one stage reduced to a shuttle Fareham-Eastleigh. Eastleigh-Romsey had virtually no passenger service for many years.)
hourly semi fast as described to Salisbury

Plus occasional through trains (L/H or DMU) to Bristol and sometimes Cardiff.
IIRC these latter decreased to nil (all change at Salisbury!) or almost so in the late 60s. Then someone thought of combining the Bristol-Salisbury DMU and the semi-fast, to give a 2-hourly (or so) through service with lots of stops, worked alternately by cross-country (or suburban) DMU - the ones with the forward view - or 3-H. This pattern is in the May 1973 timetable, which is earlier than I remembered. It proved remarkably successful, soon required 6 cars, then switched to class 33s, and led in time to today's hourly service.

Edit: after jfollows' post reminded me mine was incomplete

 

[jfollows]

I can give you a quick snap-shot from 1966:
At this time there was an hourly xx.52 to Romsey via Eastleigh which wasn't on the page I scanned, arriving in Romsey 10 minutes before the xx.03 semi-fast via Southampton.

 

[nw1]

Not 70s, but 80s and early 90s, but perhaps of interest. For most of the 80s I remember:
- hourly Portsmouth to Southampton all stations, alternate hours extending to Salisbury (3H DEMU)
- hourly Portsmouth to Eastleigh all stations, alternate hours extending to Reading (3H DEMU)
- hourly to Bristol, alternate hours to Cardiff (33 + Mk-I stock; fast from PSS to Fareham and Fareham to Southampton). From May 1988, 155s took over this service.

Such a pattern was still in existence in early 1990, immediately prior to electrification, though I think by then all services on that line terminated at Eastleigh, no through Readings.

However, in 1981/2 and 1982/3 (source: Timetable World) it appears the all-stations stopper only operated between Portsmouth and Southampton and there was an additional semi-fast hourly (mentioned by the OP) to either Romsey or Salisbury, calling at Swanwick, Netley, Woolston and St Denys - perhaps the last occasion when Netley and Woolston had two trains per hour.

In May 1990 when EMUs (CIGs and VEPs) took over, the standard pattern was a Portsmouth to Poole all stations stopper, and the Eastleigh extended to Waterloo calling at Winchester, Basingstoke and Woking only. I think these two interworked (the timings would suggest that) but I never verified that - can anyone confirm/deny this?

Also in 1990 there was an hourly Victoria-Gatwick-Hove-Southampton Central service, limited stop along the coast.

 

[Gloster]

Recollection is that most of the two-hourly Portsmouth-Bristol/Cardiffs at the end of the 1970s were Class 31 hauled. The 33s took over when they were released from Waterloo-Exeter trains by the 50s in May 1980.

 

[Magdalia]

Plus occasional through trains (L/H or DMU) to Bristol and sometimes Cardiff.
IIRC these latter decreased to nil (all change at Salisbury!) or almost so in the late 60s. Then someone thought of combining the Bristol-Salisbury DMU and the semi-fast, to give a 2-hourly (or so) through service with lots of stops, worked alternately by cross-country (or suburban) DMU - the ones with the forward view - or 3-H. This pattern is in the May 1973 timetable, which is earlier than I remembered. It proved remarkably successful, soon required 6 cars, then switched to class 33s, and led in time to today's hourly service.

I have a Bristol Temple Meads station working book for 1973. All of the Portsmouth trains SX are booked DMU (Hampshire).

There had been a daily loco hauled Cardiff-Portsmouth and return that ceased in May 1973.

The Bristol-Portsmouth service switched to loco hauled with class 31s in May 1977. ETH locos replaced steam heat for the start of the 1977/78 winter timetable. The class 33s took over most trains in May 1980 when they were replaced by class 50s on the Waterloo-Exeter route.

One other service of particular note on this route is the Brighton-Exeter/Plymouth train, which was still steam hauled in winter 1964/65. By 1973 it was only running on Saturdays and I think was a Hastings DEMU.

 

[Gloster]

According to my notes, the Brighton was a Hastings DEMU for five years up to May 1977. Although the Portsmouth-Salisbury workings were supposed to be Hampshire units, Berkshire units were quite common and Uckfield ones even appeared at times. Even after they stopped running to Bristol, the DEMUs used to go to Westbury in the evening and they had a late Sunday night working to Yeovil Junction from the Salisbury direction.

 

[nw1]

According to my notes, the Brighton was a Hastings DEMU for five years up to May 1977. Although the Portsmouth-Salisbury workings were supposed to be Hampshire units, Berkshire units were quite common and Uckfield ones even appeared at times. Even after they stopped running to Bristol, the DEMUs used to go to Westbury in the evening and they had a late Sunday night working to Yeovil Junction from the Salisbury direction.

I know in one of the two CWNs I have from (sort-of) this era - 1981/2 and 1982/3 - there was a booked St Leonards 3H (not a 3D, but rather a St Leonards-based 3H) on one of the Solent local stopping service diagrams on Saturdays. It came in from Reading on a service from Redhill then down to Portsmouth via Eastleigh. Wound up at Reading again at the end of the day I think.

 

[David Dunning]

Thanks all. Very interesting replies. Can also remember Exeter/PLYMOUTH - Brighton daily express class 50 hauled from the time when I lived by the line between Woolston and St Denys in 1987. Often use the Southern Victoria to Swanwick service now, but noticed it can be unreliable and terminated at Fareham. They seem to pack a lot into a 2aspect signalled section too. I was still commuting to school when all that was installed. Noticed this week on a Cosham to Soton run (Cardiff service) that we came to a halt at the Swanwick repeater not the main red light at the station. Assume that was to avoid stopping at Swanwick platform which is not served by the Cardiffs. Then another very slow run which seemed to avoid the same at Sholing.

 

[30907]

I have a Bristol Temple Meads station working book for 1973. All of the Portsmouth trains SX are booked DMU (Hampshire).

In that case the WR units must have come a year or two later (to cope with increased traffic?) the SR having no more 3H to spare or possibly wanting them elsewhere.

The Bristol-Portsmouth service switched to loco hauled with class 31s in May 1977. ETH locos replaced steam heat for the start of the 1977/78 winter timetable. The class 33s took over most trains in May 1980 when they were replaced by class 50s on the Waterloo-Exeter route.

Thanks (and to Gloster) for the correction.

 

[nw1]

Thanks all. Very interesting replies. Can also remember Exeter/PLYMOUTH - Brighton daily express class 50 hauled from the time when I lived by the line between Woolston and St Denys in 1987.

This was from Portsmouth Harbour if it's the same one I remember, and has come up on previous threads. It interworked with a one-off Waterloo-Portsmouth 50-hauled service (i.e. Waterloo-Portsmouth then Portsmouth-Plymouth, and v.v.)

 

[ajs]

From memory alone, in the early 70s there was a service from Portsmouth & Southsea low level to Alton via Winchester. Not sure but this could have been a 2 hourly service.

On the Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff service in the early 70s they were operated by a Class 35 Hymek and 5? MK1 coaches.

I also remember the service being operated by various Western Region DMUs including the units with the corridor .connection at both ends so if 2 units were joined together you could walk through from one to the other but only recall single units being used.

Back in the late 90s?, the Hastings Diesel was hired in to boost the service between Portsmouth & Salisbury,

And the Cardiff/Bristol to Brighton service was formed of Class 31 top n tailing a small rake of coaches. This may have been Fridays only .

This is my recollections.

 

[nw1]

From memory alone, in the early 70s there was a service from Portsmouth & Southsea low level to Alton via Winchester. Not sure but this could have been a 2 hourly service.

On the Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff service in the early 70s they were operated by a Class 35 Hymek and 5? MK1 coaches.

I also remember the service being operated by various Western Region DMUs including the units with the corridor .connection at both ends so if 2 units were joined together you could walk through from one to the other but only recall single units being used.

Back in the late 90s?, the Hastings Diesel was hired in to boost the service between Portsmouth & Salisbury,

Are you sure it was late 90s? I don't remember seeing it at that time; it was all Wales and West by then, with 158s on the fast services and 150s (occasionally 153) on the slows.

I do however remember a 37 + Mk-II coaches being used on one occasion (normally used for Weymouth summer specials).

And the Cardiff/Bristol to Brighton service was formed of Class 31 top n tailing a small rake of coaches. This may have been Fridays only .

This is my recollections.

 

[swt_passenger]

From memory alone, in the early 70s there was a service from Portsmouth & Southsea low level to Alton via Winchester. Not sure but this could have been a 2 hourly service.

Was that via Alresford? I guess very few people here will remember that line being open, but it must have been when I first used Fareham in 72, but I just don’t remember seeing it mentioned.

But then again I suppose lists of departures on highly visible displays were in the distant future…

 

[Magdalia]

From memory alone, in the early 70s there was a service from Portsmouth & Southsea low level to Alton via Winchester. Not sure but this could have been a 2 hourly service.

Winchester-Alton via Alresford closed in February 1973.

On the Portsmouth Harbour to Cardiff service in the early 70s they were operated by a Class 35 Hymek and 5? MK1 coaches.

This was the daily Cardiff-Portsmouth and return that I referred to earlier. It ceased in May 1973.

 

[Gloster]

From memory alone, in the early 70s there was a service from Portsmouth & Southsea low level to Alton via Winchester. Not sure but this could have been a 2 hourly service.

A quick look at the 1971 public timetable shows that, except for one train to Reading, all the Botley line trains just ran between Portsmouth & Southsea and Eastleigh. Except for a few Eastleigh terminators/starters all the Altons ran through to and from Southampton.

There were two Portsmouth-Bristols and one Portsmouth-Cardiff on a weekday with the two Bristols having buffet facilities; there were just two through trains on Sunday. On peak summer Saturdays there were four to Cardiff and one to Swansea.

 

[Magdalia]

And the Cardiff/Bristol to Brighton service was formed of Class 31 top n tailing a small rake of coaches. This may have been Fridays only .

Fragonset class 31s top and tail worked 1200 Cardiff-Brighton and 1700 Brighton-Cardiff on Fridays only around 2002 to 2004.

There were two Portsmouth-Bristols and one Portsmouth-Cardiff on a weekday with the two Bristols having buffet facilities.

Were these out and back from the Bristol end or the Portsmouth end please?

 

[Gloster]

Were these out and back from the Bristol end or the Portsmouth end please?

I would reckon they had WR locos and stock, with one set stabling at Fratton overnight. The morning and early afternoon trips had buffets, but there was nothing on the third trip in the evening, so probably one SR and one WR crew/steward each worked out and back.

 

[nw1]

Winchester-Alton via Alresford closed in February 1973.

I've always wondered why that one closed given that it wasn't just a local service but also (via a change at Alton) provided links between sizable towns. If it had been electrified 'in time' I suspect it would have been saved.

 

[Gloster]

I've always wondered why that one closed given that it wasn't just a local service but also (via a change at Alton) provided links between sizable towns. If it had been electrified 'in time' I suspect it would have been saved.

I read somewhere that someone became obsessed with closing it and continued pushing it long after closure mania started winding down. I don’t know if they were in BR, the Department of Transport, the county council, or where. The trouble may have been that in those days there was very little medium distance commuting except to London: a few may have gone in to Alton, Winchester, Farnham or even Southampton, but I doubt if it was heavily used by commuters. Other than that it was a local route with little intermediate traffic.

 

[Magdalia]

I've always wondered why that one closed given that it wasn't just a local service but also (via a change at Alton) provided links between sizable towns. If it had been electrified 'in time' I suspect it would have been saved.

The Transport Act 1968 was a significant development after Beeching. For the first time Ministry of Transport provided grant support for loss making services. This was by the Public Services Obligation Grant, but it was on a line by line basis, and with periodic reviews. This made it easy for the Ministry of Transport to push closures through by withdrawing grant. Most, if not all, of the early 1970s line closures happened in this way.

I don't know much about the Alton-Winchester line, but it had the disadvantage of following much the same route as the A31. I'd guess that the MoT civil servants argued that the Public Services Obligation could be met much more cheaply with buses.

I would reckon they had WR locos and stock, with one set stabling at Fratton overnight. The morning and early afternoon trips had buffets, but there was nothing on the third trip in the evening, so probably one SR and one WR crew/steward each worked out and back.

Thanks for this.

 

[nw1]

I read somewhere that someone became obsessed with closing it and continued pushing it long after closure mania started winding down. I don’t know if they were in BR, the Department of Transport, the county council, or where. The trouble may have been that in those days there was very little medium distance commuting except to London: a few may have gone in to Alton, Winchester, Farnham or even Southampton, but I doubt if it was heavily used by commuters. Other than that it was a local route with little intermediate traffic.

Ah ok thanks. And presumably Alresford to London commuter traffic wasn't sufficient.

If it had been electrified in 1967 at the same time as the main line (which would be the obvious date to do it) I suspect it would be a different story. One of the half-hourly VEPs to Alton could have extended over it, eventually to Southampton Central. Very convenient diversionary route too.

 

[Magdalia]

Ah ok thanks. And presumably Alresford to London commuter traffic wasn't sufficient.

In 1970 commuter traffic from Alresford would have been non-existent. Alresford was a country town best known for being home of the legendary John Arlott. In those days commuting from Winchester would have been tiny.

Very convenient diversionary route too.

And it was used for diversions in the days of steam traction. But it was a difficult line to work, as anyone who has been to the Watercress Line will know. Four Marks summit is 652 feet above sea level, and there are some 1/60 gradients. A blurred picture of the summit board is here:

Over The Alps [IMG_8349]

Mid Hants Railway, Over The Alps Summit Sign, next to Boyneswood Bridge, the Alton/London side of Medstead & Four Marks railway station in Hampshire England. The sign says: "Over The Alps Summit Boyneswood Bridge 652 feet 199 meters Above Sea Level" Medstead and Four Marks is the highest...

www.flickr.com

 

[nw1]

In 1970 commuter traffic from Alresford would have been non-existent. Alresford was a country town best known for being home of the legendary John Arlott. In those days commuting from Winchester would have been tiny.


And it was used for diversions in the days of steam traction. But it was a difficult line to work, as anyone who has been to the Watercress Line will know. Four Marks summit is 652 feet above sea level, and there are some 1/60 gradients. A blurred picture of the summit board is here:

True, yes it's quite an impressive elevation for southern England. Certainly the high ground around Four Marks can be seen from a long way away.

 

[ajs]

Are you sure it was late 90s? I don't remember seeing it at that time; it was all Wales and West by then, with 158s on the fast services and 150s (occasionally 153) on the slows.

It was certainly after 1994 and before 2004 but exactly when cannot recall.Use to see it stabled in Fratton yard and again from memory had been hired in for several months.

A quick look at the 1971 public timetable shows that, except for one train to Reading, all the Botley line trains just ran between Portsmouth & Southsea and Eastleigh. Except for a few Eastleigh terminators/starters all the Altons ran through to and from Southampton.

Perhaps it is the little grey cells playing tricks but l have a recollection of going from Fratton to Alton direct on the Saturday before they closed the line between Winchester & Alton, so possibly a Saturday only service. I do remember a near enough 2 hour wait on a damp and dreary Fratton station!

 

[30907]

In 1970 commuter traffic from Alresford would have been non-existent.

Pretty much so.

In those days commuting from Winchester would have been tiny.

There was enough of a market to London from way back to have peak hour expresses stop there and influential enough to bend Waterloo's ear when things went wrong
However, Winchester to Guildford was easier via Woking (one change not two), which really leaves Farnham/Aldershot as places beyond Alton for which the route was useful - and that wasn't enough to sustain the line. Which was a shame.
(I visited the line on the last Saturday, and don't remember it being heaving.)

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I think over 'The Alps' mid 60's on, was largely an hourly DEMU, Alton to Southampton Terminus, worked for the most part by two diagrams (diag numbers 1 & 9) of 2H each, xx53 off Alton and likewise off Southampton. Early morning and late evening the odd 3H diagram seems to have got involved in one or two trips. After Southampton Terminus closed, the service was of course diverted to Central. Think that's pretty much as it remained until the end?

 

[swt_passenger]

What’s puzzling me, (since my first reply in post #2), is a definite recollection of always arriving at Fareham from Eastleigh into the bay platform, yet when I looked on timetable world those were only a minority of services, with most services being Eastleigh to Portsmouth. Perhaps I was just unlucky with my choice of times, or did terminating at Fareham happen more regularly a bit later, or just before electrification?

 

[Big Jumby 74]

What’s puzzling me is a definite recollection of always arriving at Fareham from Eastleigh into the bay platform,

Certainly from about 1973 until '78 the hourly shuttle from Eastleigh ran to the bay at Fareham (xx06 of Eastleigh, due Fareham xx23, and back out at xx28 to EH), mostly 2H again, although 3H was diagrammed SO summer dates in 1977. By 1979 the vast majority of the Eastleigh's had been extended to/from Portsmouth & S, barring a small few, very early/late that still used Fareham bay.
If memory is correct the bay was limited to 6H maximum, have a feeling 33 + 8TC was just too long (for signalling purposes). The bay was used during engineering works East of Fareham, so albeit without any specific proof to hand, I'm certain it was used on occasion for such things as Salisbury services.
There was a weekend, 17/18th Feb 1990, when the new juice rail was all but laid, and there was some event on in the area I think?. A number of shuttles were run, with additionals using the bay. I have photos of 205001/029 arriving in the bay with 2Z77, 14.00 Southampton to Eastleigh via Fareham, whilst in the other direction they reversed in the Down platform (eg: 2Z44, 13.55 Eastleigh to Southampton with 205008/030).
Of note was 207017 which failed at Swanwick, possibly on the 12.20 Southampton to Portsmouth Harbour and was later dumped in Fareham yard.