Possibility of c2c Expansion?

[gsc777]

Just a questioning post, but I was wondering - is there any future for c2c expansion in terms of their networks and services? Their current network is very standard and small and seems to be working great for them, but I've always wondered as to why there's no discussion anywhere of them considering expansion into Essex (whereas Greater Anglia holds the monopoly) or the South East (where Southeastern holds the majority of services besides some Southern and Thameslink). Are any of these just pipe dreams?

Also saw that it was proposed to move Fenchurch Street station, resulting in a takeover of Tower Gateway station and shutdown of its DLR service. Should this happen, could c2c also use the local DLR lines to run services? Maybe running fast services along the service (to Stratford & Essex or Woolwich and into Kent)?

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

[ScottGallagher]

It's also been suggested in the past that it should be absorbed into the Greater Anglia concession/franchise

 

[Nym]

Maybe because it's working great for them?

If an operator is working well, why not just leave well alone and let the transport network transport people?

 

[JonathanH]

is there any future for c2c expansion in terms of their networks and services?

Its network is somewhat constrained by geography.

Also saw that it was proposed to move Fenchurch Street station, resulting in a takeover of Tower Gateway station and shutdown of its DLR service.

Do you have a source for that?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Its network is somewhat constrained by geography.


Do you have a source for that?

I’ve seen that plan too but don’t have time to find a source - but he is correct.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

I’ve seen that plan too but don’t have time to find a source - but he is correct.

its from a network rail report but I can also verify it is correct.

 

[SynthD]

Fenchurch Street station may need to move

A Network Rail report into how to manage capacity on C2C services has suggested that they may need to move Fenchurch Street station.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

The proposal is to shut Tower Gateway and open Tower Hill DLR. This gives some of the room needed for a six platform NR terminus on the site of Tower Gateway.

 

[NIT100]

its from a network rail report but I can also verify it is correct.

Network Rail report can be found here: ESSEX THAMESIDE STUDY

The main conclusions around a Fenchurch Street rebuild were

6.2.1 LONDON FENCHURCH STREET
The study’s demand forecasting and station capacity analysis of the existing layout has indicated that pedestrian capacity at London Fenchurch Street is set to exceed Network Rail’s station capacity planning guidance around the mid-platform stairs by 2025, regardless of how the train service is assembled.31

31 Assuming a split of 51% of exits to Fenchurch Place, and 49% to Coopers Row via the mid-platform stairs. As per the explanation in 5.3.1, changing this assumption to 61-39% slightly improves pedestrian flow at the mid-platform stairs, but not enough under any operating model to avoid needing to enhance the station.

In the report it states that there is maximum capacity for 25tph at Fenchurch Street, with c2c comments being that this could increase with improvements to turn-around times. Main issue is platform crowding. The other issue being platform crowding at West Ham.

The lines themselves are not fully utilised currently, with the key improvements needed being Station passenger handling capacity, platform lengthening and ECTS Level 2.

The former will have to happen before it can take on additional services to more destinations.

Their current network is very standard and small and seems to be working great for them, but I've always wondered as to why there's no discussion anywhere of them considering expansion into Essex (whereas Greater Anglia holds the monopoly)

c2c do not 'consider' expansion, the are contracted to run the services specified by the DfT, and do not take financial, the current National Rail Contract for Essex Thameside was extended to 2025 last year

 

[cle]

I would think expansion would be only 12 car services / future fixed, even articulated stock, like Crossrail. Beam Park opening, and possibly a new shared Overground station before Barking Riverside? And maybe some frequency for that route.

Fenchurch St seems unlikely. The cost of a new underground DLR station at Tower would be huge, even if the frequency (all current Tower services run to Bank) would be incredibly good, and interchange with District/Circle tube far better, relieving 'Monument' somewhat. Would make the Bank DLR a far simpler, more appealing route, including more railheadding out to Limehouse.

If that didn't happen, would there even be room for a bay or third platform at West Ham? That's the only place I could see benefits to potentially turning some peak extras, if they were needed.

Merger with Anglia would be handy for simplification but operationally I'd keep them very separate. A permanent 2tph from Liverpool St onto c2c might be nice, especially for Stratford-Barking-x connectivity, but not essential, and would mess with Crossrail.

 

[Basil Jet]

Just a questioning post, but I was wondering - is there any future for c2c expansion in terms of their networks and services? Their current network is very standard and small and seems to be working great for them, but I've always wondered as to why there's no discussion anywhere of them considering expansion into Essex (whereas Greater Anglia holds the monopoly) or the South East (where Southeastern holds the majority of services besides some Southern and Thameslink). Are any of these just pipe dreams?

Also saw that it was proposed to move Fenchurch Street station, resulting in a takeover of Tower Gateway station and shutdown of its DLR service.

Yes

Should this happen, could c2c also use the local DLR lines to run services? Maybe running fast services along the service (to Stratford & Essex or Woolwich and into Kent)?

No, the DLR Bank branch and Tower Gateway branch separate about 350 metres east of Tower Gateway, so the track donated by the DLR to C2C would be just about long enough for terminus platforms and a bit of throat weaving and not much more.

 

[gsc777]

I would think expansion would be only 12 car services / future fixed, even articulated stock, like Crossrail. Beam Park opening, and possibly a new shared Overground station before Barking Riverside? And maybe some frequency for that route.

Fenchurch St seems unlikely. The cost of a new underground DLR station at Tower would be huge, even if the frequency (all current Tower services run to Bank) would be incredibly good, and interchange with District/Circle tube far better, relieving 'Monument' somewhat. Would make the Bank DLR a far simpler, more appealing route, including more railheadding out to Limehouse.

If that didn't happen, would there even be room for a bay or third platform at West Ham? That's the only place I could see benefits to potentially turning some peak extras, if they were needed.

Merger with Anglia would be handy for simplification but operationally I'd keep them very separate. A permanent 2tph from Liverpool St onto c2c might be nice, especially for Stratford-Barking-x connectivity, but not essential, and would mess with Crossrail.

Ignoring cost (since we know that's the main issue) but is there any viability of building along further past Barking Riverside, tracking under the river, and connecting the line to the North Kent Line between Abbey Wood and Erith? And running services into Kent that way?

 

[SynthD]

Forget cost (since we know that's the main issue) but is there any viability of building along further past Barking Riverside, tracking under the river, and connecting the line to the North Kent Line between Abbey Wood and Erith? And running services into Kent that way?

What is viability if not cost? Several hundred metres of that viaduct would have to be demolished. The station would be rebuilt below ground level, in an area that may not be well flood protected, before you can go under the river (in an Overground train). It is a good idea, but the DLR extension to Thamesmead is happening because that’s more viable.

 

[gsc777]

What is viability if not cost? Several hundred metres of that viaduct would have to be demolished. The station would be rebuilt below ground level, in an area that may not be well flood protected, before you can go under the river (in an Overground train). It is a good idea, but the DLR extension to Thamesmead is happening because that’s more viable.

I was only saying in the sense of whether or not there are any limiting factors besides cost since we know that factor exists and always will .

If tunnelling is so expensive, would it just be easier to railway bridge over the Thames? Or would the upkeep be too messy to work with.

 

[Trainbike46]

maybe I'm missing something, but why?

What would be the advantage of running c2c to Kent or further north into East Anglia?
As far as I can see, it's not creating any new connections, it's not increasing capacity on capacity limited routes (and certainly not in a way that is good value), I don't see it improving reliability (certainly not on existing c2c or London Overground routes), so why?

Or is it just a case of wanting to rebrand existing Southeastern/Great Anglia services to c2c? But if so, how does that improve anything?

 

[W-on-Sea]

It's an essentially self-contained network (Liverpool St trains notwithstanding) that works well, the passenger capacity issues at Fenchurch St and (perhaps more obviously at) West Ham are of note though.

I'd have thought that anything that was likely to reduce the high rates of punctuality and reliability of the service would be to avoided, unless they offered new substantial advantages. I wonder if track capacity could be increased in places (around Chafford Hundred, between Fenchurch Street and West Ham or Stratford via Gas Factory Junction), but fundamentally, in short: if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

[SynthD]

If tunnelling is so expensive, would it just be easier to railway bridge over the Thames? Or would the upkeep be too messy to work with.

What upkeep are you thinking of?

As cruise ships have to be permitted through, do you want a Dartford style go over the top bridge or a Tower style open up when asked style bridge? The former would not allow a station within a mile of the river.

 

[Meerkat]

For the price of a Fenchurch St move could you move West Ham to the west of the Jubilee to give space for more platforms with terminating services in the middle? It needs something as its an awfully cramped and very busy station.
Or would a Fenchurch St move generate a huge sum for redevelopment of the current terminus site?

 

[stadler]

C2C does not have as much opportunity for expansion as other areas but this is what i would like to see:

• Tower Gateway taken over and the space used to expand Fenchurch Street and add an extra two platforms. Then all DLR services should be diverted to Bank instead of alternating between the two. This would actually work out well for everyone as Bank is a much more convenient station for most DLR passengers with much better connections so it would be best if all DLR trains went there.

• Platforms built at Shadwell for C2C trains to call. This would be very useful and enable easy interchange to London Overground services. Overall it would provide such good connections between South Essex and the South London and North London areas.

• Regularly C2C services running on the Limehouse - Stratford - Maryland - Forest Gate - Woodgrange Park - Barking route and calling at these stations. This would provide new connections. Although i appreciate that this may be more difficult due to very few paths on the GEML being available.

• Not necessarily an expansion of C2C services but i would likd to see platforms built on the HS1 line at Dagenham Dock and Rainham stations. This would really improve connections. It would make it so much easier to travel between South Essex and North Kent especially now that the ferry is gone.

• There are a few locations on the C2C network where new stations could be built. Thames View between Barking and Dagenham Dock is one place and Cranham between Upminster and West Horndon is another place. Although there are not as many places as other lines as C2C already has so many stations that are close together.

So there are certainly still plenty of opportunities like these to expand and improve the network.

 

[Basil Jet]

What upkeep are you thinking of?

As cruise ships have to be permitted through, do you want a Dartford style go over the top bridge or a Tower style open up when asked style bridge? The former would not allow a station within a mile of the river.

I can't quite visualise where this bridge is being advocated, but remember that high bridges are not allowed near City Airport. Also, railway swing bridges typically rotate in a horizontal plane rather than go up and down like Tower Bridge.

 

[Meerkat]

Is there anywhere it could be quadrupled for faster services to Southend? It seems a long trundle out there (though it seemed pretty smooth so maybe its just the awfully bumpy SWR mainline makes that feel faster!)

 

[JonathanH]

Given the publication of Network Rail's Control Period 7 plans today, a very empty kitty for any enhancements in the South East, and the likelihood there won't be any money in the future, talk of any kind of c2c expansion is somewhat far fetched.

 

[Mgameing123]

Fenchurch Street station may need to move

A Network Rail report into how to manage capacity on C2C services has suggested that they may need to move Fenchurch Street station.

www.ianvisits.co.uk

The proposal is to shut Tower Gateway and open Tower Hill DLR. This gives some of the room needed for a six platform NR terminus on the site of Tower Gateway.

Could I be better if they trailed an unboarding platform where Tower Gateway is then trains wait before going into the main platforms where they board passengers? Couldn't that improve capacity significantly?

 

[NIT100]

Could I be better if they trailed an unboarding platform where Tower Gateway is then trains wait before going into the main platforms where they board passengers? Couldn't that improve capacity significantly?

I would have thought that if Tower Gateway was to be replaced then it would just be a single platform used at Peak times only, perhaps with the capability to move units to Platform 1 if needed.

Another thought would be adding an extra platform face to the opposite side of existing platform 4, to create two single sided platforms to increase capacity. This would heavily depend on the overbuild structure and where any supporting columns were placed. It probably isn't possible though.

 

[Mgameing123]

I would have thought that if Tower Gateway was to be replaced then it would just be a single platform used at Peak times only, perhaps with the capability to move units to Platform 1 if needed.

Another thought would be adding an extra platform face to the opposite side of existing platform 4, to create two single sided platforms to increase capacity. This would heavily depend on the overbuild structure and where any supporting columns were placed. It probably isn't possible though.

Yeah honestly they should just repurpose the Tower Gateway platforms for peak time C2C trains and just do a Manchester Piccadilly through platform situation. Or Tower Gateway could be a "seperate" station like the old Kings Cross York Road.

 

[MPW]

C2C does not have as much opportunity for expansion as other areas but this is what i would like to see:

• Tower Gateway taken over and the space used to expand Fenchurch Street and add an extra two platforms. Then all DLR services should be diverted to Bank instead of alternating between the two. This would actually work out well for everyone as Bank is a much more convenient station for most DLR passengers with much better connections so it would be best if all DLR trains went there.

• Platforms built at Shadwell for C2C trains to call. This would be very useful and enable easy interchange to London Overground services. Overall it would provide such good connections between South Essex and the South London and North London areas.

• Regularly C2C services running on the Limehouse - Stratford - Maryland - Forest Gate - Woodgrange Park - Barking route and calling at these stations. This would provide new connections. Although i appreciate that this may be more difficult due to very few paths on the GEML being available.

• Not necessarily an expansion of C2C services but i would likd to see platforms built on the HS1 line at Dagenham Dock and Rainham stations. This would really improve connections. It would make it so much easier to travel between South Essex and North Kent especially now that the ferry is gone.

• There are a few locations on the C2C network where new stations could be built. Thames View between Barking and Dagenham Dock is one place and Cranham between Upminster and West Horndon is another place. Although there are not as many places as other lines as C2C already has so many stations that are close together.

So there are certainly still plenty of opportunities like these to expand and improve the network.

This seems like really good solution, and could be tied into easier connection between DLR and overground. There's some room to play with to west of current DLR entrance with a surface level car park and minor roads.

There is of course existing connection at Limehouse but that only has DLR vs Shadwell with overground which could maybe take advantage less utilised bit of peak flow going north from Shadwell to Shoreditch for City. Limehouse still helps remove docklands-bound passengers to spread load.

Fenchurch Street moved to Tower Gateway position could have nice pedestrian path into city (maybe covered travelator?) so still useful as terminal. perhaps some money can be made by selling off some of the no longer necessary bits near fenchurch St.

I have less of a feel for your other points. I agree that connection between HS1 and Essex railways would be useful if cross-county modal shift finally became a priority instead of lower thames crossing - maybe with a little quad track to stay out of eurostars way. Some serious monies but less than LTC!