Possible electrification of heritage railways?

[The Decapod]

Then read the very first post in this thread, look in the mirror and ask yourself if you could really consider this to be a practical possibility.

I never suggested that it was likely that there would be a stretch of preserved railway with 25kv overhead, only that I'm not enough of an expert to rule it out. After all, Tornado was built, there are serious plans to bridge the gap in the Great Central at Loughborough, an Avro Vulcan bomber has been returned to flying condition, the SS Great Britain was towed back from the Falklands and restored, so one can't rule it out altogether, but I think it's unlikley.

 

[nferguso]

I never suggested that it was likely that there would be a stretch of preserved railway with 25kv overhead, only that I'm not enough of an expert to rule it out. After all, Tornado was built, there are serious plans to bridge the gap in the Great Central at Loughborough, an Avro Vulcan bomber has been returned to flying condition, the SS Great Britain was towed back from the Falklands and restored, so one can't rule it out altogether, but I think it's unlikley.

Unlikely diminishing to zero. All three examples you cited were unique and had either a national or extremely compelling reason to succeed. I must say that the attraction of travelling in, say, a 4COR might be quite something but if you consider just what would end up running on a preserved electric line and then add to it the cost of just one electrical substation to supply the line (oh and while we're at it, we have to bond, electrically, absolutely everything including all running lines, signalling etc.) and you can see why, financially, it's a non-starter, especially in this climate.

Sorry to be so negative, but we always have to remember that our passion relies upon discretionary spending.

Neil

 

[Spagnoletti]

As has been pointed out further up the thread OHLE would bugger up everyone's photos. Anyone who tried it would drown in the froth of a thousand frustrated kettle veg.

 

[LE Greys]

As has been pointed out further up the thread OHLE would bugger up everyone's photos. Anyone who tried it would drown in the froth of a thousand frustrated kettle veg.

Any LMS locos in the right livery, and a few LNER ones, would match perfectly. Just paint a diagonal yellow stripe on the cabsides, anyone who knows their liveries will understand.

 

[Spagnoletti]

Any LMS locos in the right livery, and a few LNER ones, would match perfectly. Just paint a diagonal yellow stripe on the cabsides, anyone who knows their liveries will understand.

I thought the diagonal yellow stripes were put on locos prohibited from running under OHLE, so that would provoke a bunch of angry rivet-counters surely?

 

[E&W Lucas]

I never suggested that it was likely that there would be a stretch of preserved railway with 25kv overhead, only that I'm not enough of an expert to rule it out. After all, Tornado was built, there are serious plans to bridge the gap in the Great Central at Loughborough, an Avro Vulcan bomber has been returned to flying condition, the SS Great Britain was towed back from the Falklands and restored, so one can't rule it out altogether, but I think it's unlikley.

If you want it to happen, then you, and other like minded individuals, are going to have to pay for it. No preserved railway will touch it, as there would be no financial return on the investment.

How many people do you honestly think would be interested in paying to travel for a short distance on a vintage EMU? Consider that some of the major preserved lines are cutting back on diesel galas, because they struggle to recoup their investment. "Modern traction" is a very difficult and fickle market to tap into.

 

[kennethw]

yes, it seems that the proven formula of Thomas visiting the line and Santa specials for the kids/family are the way forward even if it upsets the purists such as the one who complained about the repainting of an engine for the Hogwarts Express, the owners pointing out that this paid a major part of the running costs for that particular loco

 

[NightatLaira]

Beamish have had an an electrified tramway for years - that's heritage isn't it?

 

[Bittern]

Yes but it's not a heritage railway.

 

[NightatLaira]

True, but it presents the same Health & Safety risks that people are using as an argument as to why a 25kV OHL or 750V DC third rail system couldn't work.

I think as the years progress and more and more 'heritage' AC and DC locos and EMUs turn up - the more likely it will be that we'll see electrified heritage railways.

 

[seanoc17]

If the market was there for it, it would be possible

I have seen 3rd rail done end to end on a NG track near where I live. To scale it up would be expensive to set up, and probably difficult to pass H&S but more impressive things have happened.

Cost of operation would be fairly inexpensive so long as the 3rd rail had its own generator and could be shut off at night. This is what is done on the NG tramway near me in the New Forest.

The big question is though, How many 1st Gen EMU's survive and how big is the enthusiast base for them? Honestly they don't attract a whole lot of attention when they are static, and their DMU counterparts are really only considered supplemental services. Conversion to battery power with a dummy 3rd rail would probably be the better option for any preserved line. That could happen and is in no way anywhere near as expensive. I wouldn't mind seeing one of the Maunsell era EMU driving cars that survive work, but truth is its unlikely.

That said if you want heratige EMU traction, look no further than the Brighton Belle for the main line. That will be one of the great sights of the preservation era.

 

[ChrisCooper]

People say there isn't a market for it, but then there are at least 4 organisations (Crich, Sandtoft, East Anglia Transport Museum and Heaton Park Tramway, don't count Beamish or Black Country as the Tram rides are secondary to the museums) that make their primary income from running old trams or trolleybuses, which have no more glamor than EMUs. I expect there would be a market for it. 1st generation DMUs are not glamourous, yet a lot of modern heritage railways have started out with them as their primary or even only traction. Many other railways also make money from their DMUs out of season. Remember the younger generations have not been brought up on steam. It's a novelty for them but their real nostalgia is for the more modern traction. A lot of normals don't really care that much either way, it's a ride on an old train. Steam still has a massive enthusiast pull, but many of them are older, and over time numbers will likely fall. Yes, steam benefits from the Thomas effect, but if we're going down that line we might as well just build steam effect diesels with smiley faces and fake steam generators.

I think the problem is 25kV would be hard from a cost point of view, and third rail has that safety issue. How dangerous is it though really, and can the risks be mitigated with things like boards either side of the rail? What about bottom contact like on the DLR? Setup costs would not be vastly higher than any other railway. For a short system you could even get away with a diesel generator before fitting a proper sub station. That's how Crich and the EATM started. Running costs should be cheaper, especially than steam (that's an important thing to remember, steam might bring in more money but it also costs more). EMUs are also clean and quiet, so would be far more popular with the neighbours (an important consideration for a new railway where the "we were here first" argument doesn't hold much water, even if strictly the closed railway was).

If it does happen, I imagine it would need a collaboration of the various groups involved in EMU preservation. The SEMG, Coventry Railway Centre, perhaps the NRM and London Transport Museum, and would be a new line, not an existing one.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

I do think there is perhaps potential for the Epping Ongar Railway to get their 3rd rail reinstated, considering it was a former London Underground line, so it may have some of the infrastructure still there. They have one of the Lymington Slammers which would use the 3rd rail, and they could also get hold of old tube stack such as the 1938 stock or Sarah Siddons, both run on the LU network on tours but are difficult to organise as more of the LU lines become out of bounds due to updated signalling, etc. And they could still continue, but in the other times, they could run on the EOR.

And the EOR could probably still use steam during the peak holiday season, but as it is an old LU line, I think LU stock on it would go down well. After all, the A stock are all being withdrawn, and they could get hold of one of them.

I'd love to attempt to drive the 1938 stock if the EOR do get hold of this and organise driving experiences which seem to be on most heritage railways.

I think the EOR is the exception rather than the rule though.

But I think the Electric Railway Museum here also has potential. And I hope they get some of their stuff running.

 

[Spagnoletti]

Heritage railways make their money from punters wanting to ride on steam trains. Sinking a load of capital into something that the majority of their customers don't care about is commercial suicide.

 

[JoeGJ1984]

Heritage railways make their money from punters wanting to ride on steam trains. Sinking a load of capital into something that the majority of their customers don't care about is commercial suicide.

I agree normally, but I think the EOR is the exception because of its LU legacy. I think, as was said above that a lots of kids would just lap up and enjoy any ride on an old train (I think kids enjoy the forward views from DMUS and they can be found on EMUs) and lots of heritage railways run the old DMUs and I'm sure people may ride them spontaneously because they happen to be the next train departing (they could always go back on a steam train or even go back and forth if possible - a lot of lines sell 'Rover' tickets and I'm sure a lot of kids would enjoy rides on different trains).

 

[kennethw]

one point to consider is that LUL uses a 4 rail system while the former SR uses 3 rail. Also there have been different voltages such as the Manchester - Bury and not all overhead lines were 25kv such as the Altricham line now part of the Manchester tramway.

The Lymington unit brought by the Epping-Ongar line has spent the summer on the Swanage raiway and created a bit of history as bein powered by a diesel, recreated the TC push-pull era when BR reduced the Swanage branch to a basic railway.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Though unlikely, a heritage electric railway is not totally out of the question.

The Birkenhead Tramway came about with a willing council and a Heritage Lottery fund grant and it runs through the streets and on the public highway so requiring more stringent H & S concerns than your average museum run line.

http://www.mtps.co.uk/track.htm

There is no reason why a well put together idea could not come to fruition though needs to be fast as ALL the lottery money will soon be going towards the treasury the way things are going.

 

[40086]

Much as I would enjoy it, can't see this pulling punters in general to a preserved railway.

Best option would be a generator car surely? Do that right and you could use it on a number of lines!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Maybe if it served a purpose and tied in with something else (like the Isle of Man railways or Blackpools trams).

It's probably too late but the Folkestone East - Folkestone Harbour strectch would have made an interesting, if challenging, conductor rail heritage line.

 

[gazthomas]

Put hand in pocket and it might happen...

 

[nferguso]

Put hand in pocket and it might happen...

Yep, raise the cash and it's all yours to play-with.

 

[kennethw]

1498 has been used with 33 111 "Hot Dog" on the DMU path Swanage railway this weekend, saw it earlier today have the nameplates been removed by SWT prior to sale?

4492 alias 60019 on headshunt Swanage station in preperation for next weekends steam gala, informed it and the other visiting loco will work evening services

 

[PUFFINGBILLY]

The Bluebell Railway mightre-instate 3rd rail if they ever re-open a section of the branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath. After all the Southern is very much 3rd rail territory and I don't agree that the appeal would only be 'niche'.
If you remove the 'steam engine blinkers' and much as it might irritate, there is already interest in 'period' electrics, in fact the younger generation although intrigued and amused by steam have a more direct connection with diesel and electric, after all that's what THEY remember.
However I agree the thought of working volunteers and staff, and lineside watchers and snappers being in the vicinity of a 'live'third rail makes me shudder.

 

[DavyCrocket]

The Bluebell Railway mightre-instate 3rd rail if they ever re-open a section of the branch line from Horsted Keynes to Haywards Heath. After all the Southern is very much 3rd rail territory and I don't agree that the appeal would only be 'niche'.
If you remove the 'steam engine blinkers' and much as it might irritate, there is already interest in 'period' electrics, in fact the younger generation although intrigued and amused by steam have a more direct connection with diesel and electric, after all that's what THEY remember.
However I agree the thought of working volunteers and staff, and lineside watchers and snappers being in the vicinity of a 'live'third rail makes me shudder.

The thought of certain railway staff from LU and NR in the vicinity of a live third rail make me shudder!

Third rail funded by the Bluebell Railway would never happen. Perhaps if some other group were to fund it, then maybe. As to it being operated by volunteers, well volunteers drive, signal, shunt, control, plan, design, rebuild trains, signalling, carriages, track...

 

[Blackcab94]

I do think there is perhaps potential for the Epping Ongar Railway to get their 3rd rail reinstated, considering it was a former London Underground line, so it may have some of the infrastructure still there. They have one of the Lymington Slammers which would use the 3rd rail, and they could also get hold of old tube stack such as the 1938 stock or Sarah Siddons, both run on the LU network on tours but are difficult to organise as more of the LU lines become out of bounds due to updated signalling, etc. And they could still continue, but in the other times, they could run on the EOR.

And the EOR could probably still use steam during the peak holiday season, but as it is an old LU line, I think LU stock on it would go down well. After all, the A stock are all being withdrawn, and they could get hold of one of them.

I'd love to attempt to drive the 1938 stock if the EOR do get hold of this and organise driving experiences which seem to be on most heritage railways.

I think the EOR is the exception rather than the rule though.

But I think the Electric Railway Museum here also has potential. And I hope they get some of their stuff running.

There is NO possibility of the EOR putting down a 3rd Rail at all.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There is NO possibility of the EOR putting down a 3rd Rail at all.

They would need a fourth as well if they were to recreate a genuine 38 stock experience.

 

[The Decapod]

They would need a fourth as well if they were to recreate a genuine 38 stock experience.

Plus two or three miles of tube tunnel and at least one underground station !! OK I know 38 stock ran above ground too, but to create the genuine 38 stock experience ...!!

 

[Chris125]

Plus two or three miles of tube tunnel and at least one underground station !! OK I know 38 stock ran above ground too, but to create the genuine 38 stock experience ...!!

You can have a genuine 38 experience whenever you want, just buy a ferry ticket to the Isle of Wight.

Chris

 

[Mutant Lemming]

You can have a genuine 38 experience whenever you want, just buy a ferry ticket to the Isle of Wight.

Chris

You would still need to bring your own tunnel dust and a rat's coffin.

 

[d5509]

The Bluebell's Ardingley branch scenario might start out as a short shuttle where a battery powered EMU would be an operational contender.

Installing 3rd rail, the supporting infrastructure and building a safety case does seem a bit OTT if you only want to operate one EMU
under its own power requiring only a leisurely acceleration to 25mph.

Since MLV.s were designed and built, batteries are lighter and more powerful (and more expensive) so maybe
there is scope for developing new-design battery trailer vehicles to feed the EMU's motors.

The LBSC had those motor luggage EMUs - nicknamed "milk vans" - which sat between pairs of passenger vehicles, something
resembling one of those,without motors and carrying a nice set of hi-tech batteries, wouldn't look too amiss in the middle of a 2-BIL.

Has anyone considered a LT battery loco with 38 stock?