Possible solutions for Chiltern's stock shortages?

[Energy]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/chiltern-overcrowding.195985/

Chiltern can't get any off lease stock, there isn't any and the 185s don't seem to be leaving too quickly.

They are at the end of their franchise and won't invest any more, the best thing is new stock to allow the current 168s plus a few 170s, which hopefully will come from XC if XC get new stock, to operate turbo services then the turbos can go to GWR.

 

[TH172341]

165s are ageing and had electrical issues with them and in the next franchise will need replacing. Certainly need some additional Turbostars or DMUs of some variety. Only place 170s may appear from now is perhaps Southern if they end up getting rid of all the 171s (believe some are not being taken by East Mids?). 185s would be a good fit albeit there is no Siemens depot ideally placed to maintain them so would have to be inhouse. Ultimately nothing will be properly resolved until 2021....

 

[JonathanH]

Chiltern can't get any off lease stock, there isn't any and the 185s don't seem to be leaving to quickly. They are at the end of their franchise and won't invest any more, the best thing is new stock to allow the current 168s plus a few 170s, which hopefully will come from XC if XC get new stock, to operate turbo services then the turbos can go to GWR.

165s are ageing and had electrical issues with them and in the next franchise will need replacing. Certainly need some additional Turbostars or DMUs of some variety. Only place 170s may appear from now is perhaps Southern if they end up getting rid of all the 171s (believe some are not being taken by East Mids?). 185s would be a good fit albeit there is no Siemens depot ideally placed to maintain them so would have to be inhouse. Ultimately nothing will be properly resolved until 2021....

The franchise doesn't end until 11 December 2021 so it could be well into 2023 before anything happens with the rolling stock, even longer if replacement rolling stock needs to await electrification of some sort on the main line.

Possible routes to additional rolling stock in 2022 might include EMT/TfW 158s to GWR to displace Turbos to Chiltern rather than Chiltern getting new trains to displace 165s to GWR but not really sure what else is going to be available.

 

[thatapanydude]

Could HST's with refurbished Mk3 sets be used on Marylebone to Birmingham/Oxford (mabye), that could be a solution.

 

[JonathanH]

Could HST's with refurbished Mk3 sets be used on Marylebone to Birmingham/Oxford (mabye), that could be a solution.

No - not an immediate option as Wabtec have a backlog for conversion which will run throughout 2020 and they are 40-year old trains. As noted above, Chiltern will do nothing more than tinker with the existing fleet until December 2021.

 

[Energy]

HSTs with power doors couldn't come in time with the delays already, plus I doubt Chiltern will want old trains which take lots of fuel.

 

[Kite159]

Unlikely due to the end of the franchise but maybe some CAF DMUs, similar to the 196s for West Midlands?

Assuming they can be fitted with the tightcock for the Harrow - Amersham section.

 

[HSTEd]

Unlikely due to the end of the franchise but maybe some CAF DMUs, similar to the 196s for West Midlands?

Assuming they can be fitted with the tightcock for the Harrow - Amersham section.

Are there enough DMUs fitted with tripcocks to operate that service if no other demands were placed upon them?
If so then new units don't have to be fitted with them.

Just order a bunch of 196s to operate services on the CML.

 

[JonathanH]

Are there enough DMUs fitted with tripcocks to operate that service if no other demands were placed upon them?
If so then new units don't have to be fitted with them.

Just order a bunch of 196s to operate services on the CML.

Question really is whether the 165 and 168 fleet can continue long enough to be replaced by electric trains in the late 2020s / early 2030s and is sufficient in the meantime.

I don't see why new diesels would be ordered in the early 2020s given the likelihood of electrification so they really are a bit stuck with what they have and the next franchise may likely also be. Could 196s be built in such a way that they could easily be converted to electric or be hybrid?

 

[HSTEd]

Question really is whether the 165 and 168 fleet can continue long enough to be replaced by electric trains in the late 2020s / early 2030s and is sufficient in the meantime.

I don't see why new diesels would be ordered in the early 2020s given the likelihood of electrification so they really are a bit stuck with what they have and the next franchise may likely also be. Could 196s be built in such a way that they could easily be converted to electric or be hybrid?

It seems doubtful that conversion would be easy.
But given the impending life expiry of a substantial number of diesel units elsewhere, it is doubtful there will be a national surplus of DMUs within the lifespan of any units ordered in the new few years.
Especially if we were to cut fares in future to encourage modal shift to reduce overall emissions.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Possible routes to additional rolling stock in 2022 might include EMT/TfW 158s to GWR to displace Turbos to Chiltern rather than Chiltern getting new trains to displace 165s to GWR but not really sure what else is going to be available.

GWR 165s are geared for 90mph running and don't have tripcocks or Chiltern ATP, so can only run "boxed in". (As happened for the first FA Cup Final after the new Wembley opened IIRC).

If memory serves, there are also clearance issues mentioned in the Sectional Appendix.

 

[JonathanH]

It seems doubtful that conversion would be easy.
But given the impending life expiry of a substantial number of diesel units elsewhere, it is doubtful there will be a national surplus of DMUs within the lifespan of any units ordered in the new few years.
Especially if we were to cut fares in future to encourage modal shift to reduce overall emissions.

Isn't that what the Northern 195 fleet is about - some kind of estimate of the number of diesel units needed when the 150/156/158 fleets actually reach their respective end dates.

 

[Meerkat]

Bi-modes for SWR would free a good few 159s, bi-modes for XC would free up 170s
Bit longer term but WM electrifying the Snow Street lines would free up suitable diesels.
Does freeing up diesels get included in business cases? It probably should now their is an urgency not to build new ones.

 

[Journeyman]

Could HST's with refurbished Mk3 sets be used on Marylebone to Birmingham/Oxford (mabye), that could be a solution.

Knew someone would suggest that sooner or later. Don't even go there.

 

[6Gman]

Knew someone would suggest that sooner or later. Don't even go there.

442s hauled by hired-in preserved diesels ?

 

[Journeyman]

442s hauled by hired-in preserved diesels ?

Hahaha! Someone had to say it.

 

[168001]

GWR 165s are geared for 90mph running and don't have tripcocks or Chiltern ATP, so can only run "boxed in". (As happened for the first FA Cup Final after the new Wembley opened IIRC).

If memory serves, there are also clearance issues mentioned in the Sectional Appendix.

The 2 car 170’s and the 172’s do not have ATP fitted so nothing to stop them running on their own.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The 2 car 170’s and the 172’s do not have ATP fitted so nothing to stop them running on their own.

Good point...and neither are the 68s of course.

Though at the time Chiltern borrowed the 165/1s, there was no passenger stock in the fleet without ATP.

I'd hazard a guess that traction knowledge may have been a factor in the decision to box the /1s in as well, as they hadn't been refurbished like the /0s were.

 

[t_star2001uk]

The 2 car 170’s and the 172’s do not have ATP fitted so nothing to stop them running on their own.

Chiltern 172s are ATP fitted...

 

[t_star2001uk]

At the time when we borrowed the 165 from Reading, all Chiltern stock was ATP fitted and there was a policy of only having units fitted with ATP running in passenger service. Thats why they were boxed in with Chiltern driving ends leading...

 

[Energy]

Wonder if any spare middle cars from the 170/6s are not going to XC? Could go to Chiltern.

 

[greatvoyager]

Wonder if any spare middle cars from the 170/6s are not going to XC? Could go to Chiltern.

All 6 centre cars are going to XC, to make the 6 170/5s 3 car.

 

[MML]

If Chiltern made all Oxford and Birmingham express services using Class 68, Mark 4 stock ex LNER and associated DVT, then these services could be marketed as Silver trains with intercity product.
The existing DMUs could then be moved entirely to serve the semi fast and stopping services.

 

[The Planner]

If Chiltern made all Oxford and Birmingham express services using Class 68, Mark 4 stock ex LNER and associated DVT, then these services could be marketed as Silver trains with intercity product.
The existing DMUs could then be moved entirely to serve the semi fast and stopping services.

Should be the other way around, the Silvers should be on the Birminghams. Not that Chiltern will be getting Mk4s.

 

[t_star2001uk]

If Chiltern made all Oxford and Birmingham express services using Class 68, Mark 4 stock ex LNER and associated DVT, then these services could be marketed as Silver trains with intercity product.
The existing DMUs could then be moved entirely to serve the semi fast and stopping services.

All of these ideas of mk4s, 185's and any other solution that is currently not used on Chiltern. The one biggest issue is cost. To have a couple of sets of mk4s would require converting them to work with 68's, driver and guard training, maintenance staff training, spare parts for the above and ultimately somewhere to fix them when they need fixing. To take a 170 and make it into a 168 is by far the cheapest option, not only in the cost of conversion and requires very little traction knowledge ( if the conversion is done to the same spec as 168/3). But unfortunately with little time remaining on the current franchise, it doesnt look good for anything extra to suppliment the current fleet.

 

[philthetube]

They should not have been allowed to start the oxford service without adequate stock to run it.

 

[t_star2001uk]

They should not have been allowed to start the oxford service without adequate stock to run it.

Thats why we got the 168/3 (170s) from TPE

 

[168001]

Thats why we got the 168/3 (170s) from TPE

Did the eventually get all the ones allocated.

 

[D365]

Did the eventually get all the ones allocated.

Well it caused enough problems for TPE didn’t it...

 

[t_star2001uk]

Yes. all of the allocated units were transferred.