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Possible third rail electrifications

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JohnElliott

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Don't know if anyone has mentioned it but there was talk of electrifying the Marshlink line with 3rd rail but I can't see it happening.

I came across this letter today suggesting that the 'preferred' solution for Marshlink was converting 377s into bimodes (!) with the only sticking point being DfT's reluctance to pay for the work. Sounds somewhat unlikely to me.
 
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Philip Phlopp

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I came across this letter today suggesting that the 'preferred' solution for Marshlink was converting 377s into bimodes (!) with the only sticking point being DfT's reluctance to pay for the work. Sounds somewhat unlikely to me.

IPEMU not bi-mode, so a battery pack rather than engine.

I'd have thought this would be a trial rather than a committed scheme waiting DfT authorisation.
 

Domh245

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IPEMU not bi-mode, so a battery pack rather than engine.

I'd have thought this would be a trial rather than a committed scheme waiting DfT authorisation.

Would the range of an IPEMU be enough to get them to Ashford? Would there need to be a charging station at Rye (especially heading westward into the hilly bits, rather than towards the marshes)
 

XDM

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Would the range of an IPEMU be enough to get them to Ashford? Would there need to be a charging station at Rye (especially heading westward into the hilly bits, rather than towards the marshes)

Third rail the hilly bit from Rye to Ore.
 

Philip Phlopp

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Would the range of an IPEMU be enough to get them to Ashford? Would there need to be a charging station at Rye (especially heading westward into the hilly bits, rather than towards the marshes)

It depends on the size and number of battery packs you could install, but would very definitely need to be tested before any committal.
 

Domh245

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Third rail the hilly bit from Rye to Ore.

What kind of distance could a third rail feeder station cover (on a line with marshlink levels of service) and how would that compare to the length between Rye and Ore? It's rather annoying that the topography isn't the other way around, because the Dungneness headland has got a fair bit of power generation on it, between the Nuclear power station and the Windfarm, which I would guess would make feeding a third rail on the Ashford end a doddle.
 

JohnElliott

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I wondered if they meant batteries rather than diesel as the second power source, but was under the impression that the trial IPEMU hadn't been cost-effective. It seems a bit of a jump from there to 'preferred solution'.
 

Philip Phlopp

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I wondered if they meant batteries rather than diesel as the second power source, but was under the impression that the trial IPEMU hadn't been cost-effective. It seems a bit of a jump from there to 'preferred solution'.

It's cost effective if you can stretch the existing electric fleet to cover services that are worked by diesel stock today, or which would require additional diesel stock to operate.

It's dubious on its own, but if it's a stop-gap measure whilst something permanent is worked out involving proper electrification, it's acceptable.

It's pretty much out of the question as a like for like replacement for diesel stock though.
 

Bald Rick

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Would the range of an IPEMU be enough to get them to Ashford? Would there need to be a charging station at Rye (especially heading westward into the hilly bits, rather than towards the marshes)

The work I've seen done (for this very line) suggests they can get from Ore to Ashford and back on one charge. And recharge between Ore and Brighton and return. I do think a short stub end fed section at each end, about a mile long would help, and possibly a mile or so of an island either side of Rye.
 

Domh245

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The work I've seen done (for this very line) suggests they can get from Ore to Ashford and back on one charge. And recharge between Ore and Brighton and return. I do think a short stub end fed section at each end, about a mile long would help, and possibly a mile or so of an island either side of Rye.

Interesting, so it is feasible. I do then wonder what units would be converted to IPEMU? I would guess that the 377/3s would be more appropriate in terms of passenger numbers, and would have the benefit of one less motor vehicle to carry around.
 

JamesRowden

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The work I've seen done (for this very line) suggests they can get from Ore to Ashford and back on one charge. And recharge between Ore and Brighton and return. I do think a short stub end fed section at each end, about a mile long would help, and possibly a mile or so of an island either side of Rye.

The service could be extended to Margate/Dover to reduce the amount of batteries required if limited recharge time is an issue at the Ashford end of the route. Particularly useful in the event of an eastbound journey arriving late at Ashford.
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Interesting, so it is feasible. I do then wonder what units would be converted to IPEMU? I would guess that the 377/3s would be more appropriate in terms of passenger numbers, and would have the benefit of one less motor vehicle to carry around.

A 377/3 is only about 14m longer than the 2-car 171s which are presently overcrowded off-peak.
 

Domh245

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The service could be extended to Margate/Dover to reduce the amount of batteries required if limited recharge time is an issue at the Ashford end of the route. Particularly useful in the event of an eastbound journey arriving late at Ashford.

I'm not sure that the track layout would allow that. There was talk about extending HS1 trains down Marshlink, but because of the layout, they can't.

A 377/3 is only about 14m longer than the 2-car 171s which are presently overcrowded off-peak.

Fair enough, I'm not particularly aware of typical loadings on Marshlink. I suppose that whatever they do, it'd probably be a small fleet to make diagramming simpler, rather than fitting the entire 377 fleet.

That said, I wonder if they'll look into fitting the entire fleet to provide a last mile capacity as found on the 801s.
 

JamesRowden

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I'm not sure that the track layout would allow that. There was talk about extending HS1 trains down Marshlink, but because of the layout, they can't.

Platforms 1 and 2 can access all lines to the south east of Ashford International station.
 
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QueensCurve

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I'm not convinced this tells the whole story. For a start, if we look at the AC/OHLE network as one and compare it with the 3rd rail lines then we can see they're very different in profile. OHLE is mostly used on long distance lines and relatively few commuter lines are electrified - the northern half of Thameslink perhaps being the main exception. The 3rd rail lines are mostly found in the urban South East and the Liverpool area; and so to begin with, they're within close approximation to large populations of people, increasing the chance of death by misadventure, suicides etc.

I too fond the ORR 8x statement slightly problematical. What they said was:-

This is borne out by data from RSSB’s safety risk model – despite the legacy network being only half the size of the AC network (4400km compared to 8200km), it contributes almost eight times more (in terms of fatalities and weighted injuries per year) to overall risks on the railway.

Here they seem to be looking at total "fatalities and weighted injuries" without identifying the electrical ones.

While AC electrification does include longer distance routes with relatively infrequent and less busy services, it also includes busy commuter routes North of the Thames as well as the Greater Manchester, West Micllands, West Yorkshire and Glasgow areas.

That said, it would seem that there is scope for additional fatalities due to the thrid rail.

ORR's main case is based on the Electricity at work regulations, Viz:-

There are more specific duties in the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 (the “EAW Regulations”) which require precautions to be taken to avoid death or personal injury from electricity at work activities. The existing DC network predates the EAW Regulations and consequently was not designed to comply with them.

That is a bit of a showstopper regardless of the risk.

The third rail introduces a non-compliant source of electrical hazard. The voltage is too high to be safe and too low to be electrically efficent. For that reason alone there should be a presumption that new systems should be on the high voltage AC system.
 

Philip Phlopp

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For that reason alone there should be a presumption that new systems should be on the high voltage AC system.

There's no need for presumption, it is a hard and fast rule that there will be no more third rail.

Tio Terry has already said it, and I'll repeat it.

DfT and ORR say this.

The UK has published National Technical Rules for the AC and DC subsystems and these will be notified. There is no intention to increase the size of the UK’s DC third rail network.
 

QueensCurve

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I'm pretty sure renewal of life-expired third rail with new third rail doesn't count as an extension and I'm fairly certain this has happened on Merseyrail over the years. If you accept that the tunnels will always be 3rd rail then I don't see why you'd still want to do piecemeal replacements of portions of the surface sections with OHLE.

As has been posted elsewhere in this forum, even replacements of life-expired DC equipment may favour OHLE.

The new Merserail stock "could also be ordered with 25 kV 50 Hz capability to allow potential operation to new destinations such as Warrington and Crewe within the next 30 years". Another reason why there would be little incentive to install new 3rd rail.

And it is a faff changing power. It's just yet another thing that can go wrong. The train has to wait longer at the station than it would otherwise. The driver has to remember to lower the pantograph when leaving the OHLE area.

I have experienced that once in the opening year of the Eurostar Service. My Waterloo to Paris service continued coasting at the Dollands Moor changeover point. 22 minutes later was the ominous sign of a man in coveralls walking down the train carrying a large ring binder Eurostar Technical Manual: Annex 2 - Fault Finding. Turned out that an interlock contact hadn't made when the shoe gear retracted and would not therefore allow the pantograph to be raised. 74 mins late into Paris Nord.

Traction current changeovers are however now commonplace within Europe and often happen at speed on the move. The technical risk would appear to be manageable and acceptable.
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You still haven't said why, despite the regular occurrences of OHLE electrocutions, you believe the Merseyrail system is so much more mortal to people. A couple of articles, one going back over 7 years hardly proves your point. There have been plenty more people who have been run over on the system during this time, so perhaps we should stop the trains running entirely?

The ORR has taken the position that we should not make further installations of a system that causes an unnecessary risk of such fatalities.
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I know experienced posters have raised extra DC track side transformers,but they are offset by ac needing extra rail borne transformers.
They have also raised extra time preparing for track possessions,but that could be managed down & there are benefits,cranes don't have to dodge the overhead line. Power losses,well wet ballast is often piled up against the third rail,leaking vast currents to earth. Take a look next time you are held at a signal in third rail territory.
If NR had a regime for eliminating this sort of third rail earthing the only extra power loss would come from the low voltage of dc,& that could be partially mitigated by low resistance aluminium conductor rail.

Irrespective of the conductor material, losses are proportional to the current. Power is proportional to the product of current and voltage. Transmission systems therefore seek to maximise voltage to as to minimise current.

Those pesky train-borne transformers mean you can keept the supply system at high voltage while meeting the needs of the train. Historically AC control systems on the train were also less lossy than for DC although this is to an extent mitigated by power electronics.

I do get the impression that there seems to be some sort of British passion for 3rd rail systems while other countries have for the most part standardised on overhead systems. High Voltage AC was a sort of holy grail for railways a century ago.

The Bern Lötschberg Simplon cracked this in 1931 with the 15kV low frequency adopted that year as standard for Switzerland (and later for other countries) despite the need for frequency changers.

Why on Earth would we want to perpetuate a dangerous and inefficient system?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Irrespective of the conductor material, losses are proportional to the current. Power is proportional to the product of current and voltage. Transmission systems therefore seek to maximise voltage to as to minimise current.

Why on Earth would we want to perpetuate a dangerous and inefficient system?

Power loss = Isquared x R so since zero resistance material does not exist yet or is very low but ridiculously expensive ( copper is one of the best) keeping current down is key. Power = I x V so high voltage is the way to go.
 

QueensCurve

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Oddly enough, there has been 750v DC overhead in the past - in fact the class 71s were built with pantographs to allow collection from such systems which it was envisaged would be used in yards where the risks of staff coming into contact with 3rd rail were greater.

Another example would be the BOB (Interlaken to Grindlewald/Lauterbrunnen, Switzerland).
 

Philip Phlopp

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I do have to ask why someone is replying to posts from 2 and 3 months ago though.
 
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