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Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

Philip

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Class 68s taking off are no more noisy than 185s are at full pelt. I have worked at a station which has had both within the same day and I wouldn't say there is much difference. There is an EMR 170 which has a rather keen turbo which howls away when setting off, this is louder than any 68. I agree that 68s are louder when idling but this is only usually for a couple of minutes. If they are booked to hang around for hours then why not switch the engine off?

People moaned about 185s being too noisy when they were new but they eventually got used to it and don't complain now, the same will happen with 68s.

How did people cope when roaring rail was a common feature of the track for many years? Most of this has gone now because of better railhead treatment, but when it was common there were stretches which produced more noise than the train itself and the roar could be heard miles away, but it was just a normal feature of the railway which people were used to and there wasn't a big fuss about it like there is here.
 
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Vanmanyo

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Clearly it's an operation side of things if they are idling for 20 minutes. Chiltern at least try and reduce the noise by running very little services and ensuring they aren't idling. I haven't heard much complaints on the Chiltern side of things for noise but perhaps the locals just give up with complaining. I hope the sound reduction works as the 68s are pretty good locos
 

12LDA28C

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Clearly it's an operation side of things if they are idling for 20 minutes. Chiltern at least try and reduce the noise by running very little services and ensuring they aren't idling. I haven't heard much complaints on the Chiltern side of things for noise but perhaps the locals just give up with complaining. I hope the sound reduction works as the 68s are pretty good locos

Really? You must've missed the fact that the complaints are so vociferous and have local councillor backing to such an extent that Chiltern have to limit the number of daily Class 68 arrivals and departures at Marylebone as a direct result.
 

Vanmanyo

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Really? You must've missed the fact that the complaints are so vociferous and have local councillor backing to such an extent that Chiltern have to limit the number of daily Class 68 arrivals and departures at Marylebone as a direct result.
I should've said recently, but I think what I said directly after is probably true
 

DanNCL

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The 68s definitely are noisier than anything else comparable to them.
A couple of weeks ago I was in the NRM and could hear the 68 that was idling in P4 at York station from *inside* the NRM. Granted the NRM was virtually empty and therefore no had other noise to drown it out, perhaps had the museum been busier then the 68 wouldn’t have been heard, but the fact it could be heard from inside the NRM at all was poor.

I don't think there is really much work for them on the freight side.

The mixed traffic Bo-Bo diesel locomotive has no advantage over a Class 66 in actual freight operations.
It amazes me people continue to buy them, given the debacle with the Class 67.

Then again the only purchaser of them in modern times has been Direct Rail Services, which needs locomotives for nuclear flask operations that are unlike any other freight activity.
Once the flask trains cease in another few years we shall have to see what happens.
Nuclear flask traffic won’t cease for a very long time, probably not in any of our lifetimes. The current nuclear traffic has probably around 10 years left, by which point sites currently planned/under construction will be generating traffic which should take us through to at least the 2060s. Beyond that there’ll be the geological disposal facility (GDF), almost everything that’s gone to Sellafield over the last 50+ years will have to be moved to the GDF once it’s open and that’ll take decades. Nuclear flask traffic could easily survive into the 2100s, obviously the 68s won’t still be hauling the nuclear flasks at that point though!

I’m in the camp with those that think that those who say they’re fine with the racket they make are enthusiasts who like the noise. They’d soon think again if they suddenly had to live with it day in day out like the people of Marylebone and Scarborough. Notice they didn’t complain about the noise of trains before the advent of the 68’s being thrust upon their neighbourhoods.
There’s always going to be a small minority who’ll complain regardless, I used to have neighbours who moaned about the noise of the 66s that passed by about half a mile away even though it wasn’t loud enough or close enough to actually be a nuisance.
The 68s though are another level and if they’d been an aircraft or a car they’d never have been certified as recently as they were whilst making such a racket.

Clearly it's an operation side of things if they are idling for 20 minutes. Chiltern at least try and reduce the noise by running very little services and ensuring they aren't idling. I haven't heard much complaints on the Chiltern side of things for noise but perhaps the locals just give up with complaining. I hope the sound reduction works as the 68s are pretty good locos
It was often much longer than 20 minutes on TPE. It wasn’t uncommon for a set to come into York from Scarborough with a layover of more than an hour and the 68 left idling the entire time.
 

Peter Sarf

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As previously mentioned, there are no late night departures / arrivals at Marylebone using 68s so they are not 'keeping people awake' at night.
I agree. So far Chiltern are getting by. But I get the feeling any extra workings involving 68s would require some kind of noise mitigation. I think I read even the long term current level of use might be at risk.

I really hope the 68s can be made quieter. I think it should be possible subject to space perhaps.
A lot of people work shifts, you know.

General background noise occurs in cities, but 68s are very, very noisy. It's like opening an airport in the middle of London. Noise pollution is a serious issue.
Yes we have to accept people work shifts - and very rarely wealthy people. We want them to do our work for us so we should consider their well being.
But for Chiltern it's maybe what 5 or 6 times a day that you'll hear them, I don't see how this very limited amount of noise for perhaps 10 seconds whilst it departs or arrives warrants the withdrawal of the whole fleet.
That is right. Chiltern are endeavouring to keep it to a minimum frequency of use. The noise on arrival/departure is for a great deal longer than ten seconds each time a train departs or arrives. Furthermore the worst was the noise while the train is "turning round" - that is about ten minutes.

No one is saying scrap the 68s but to use them at Marylebne for more services OR for longer term they need to be made quieter.
They shouldn't be in idle at Marylebone for too long. Just a few minutes whilst they turn on the engine but I would say a 66 has the same idle noise levels as a 68. I did work experience at Crewe with DRS in the Summer and the 66s were louder than the 68s
But have to provide hotel power (ETH) to the stock while it is in the station. So the engine is working at more than tickover. That noise seems to be the culprit.
There aren't any 66s at MYB nor are there going to be, so what the 66 is like is irrelevant. But having stood next to both, the pure decibels may be similar (I don't think they are, but they could be) but the deep bass noise of the 68 and the loud turbo whine on departure is far, far more disruptive. 66s make that odd "yinyinyin" noise, while 66s shake the platform.

There is a very good reason why these have drawn far more complaints than anything else. They are simply too noisy to be used anywhere without modification.
Indeed. As far as Marylebone goes the 68s replaces the 67s.
I honestly don't think they are that bad and you're taking it out of proportion a bit. I've been at stations with friends and family whilst 68s are present and been on the 68s with friends and family who know nothing about trains and they've never said anything about it. If we didn't have NIMBYs this country would be far better. How people can't deal with a little bit of noise for a minute or two that might distract them a bit if they're nearby and then suggest the removal of these trains that thousands rely on each day is beyond me.
I honestly found the 68 at raised tickover striking !. Passing the complaints off as just from NIMBYS is not going to work. Getting noticed by people who used not to complain is asking for trouble. I don't live near where they are used so it does not affect me but standing on the station next to them it is an obvious noise that I am not sure is matched by previous locomotives right beck to the 70s. Someone said the D57xx Co-Bos were comparable - gone by about 1970.
I think the neighbours should really consider their locations better. Although I agree the railways are pretty poor at respecting some things (such as leaving trains idling at stations - Chiltern are good at this at Oxford), some things like a loud train affecting someone for a short amount of time is a bit silly. People don't ask airlines to make their planes quieter because they live by the runway and can hear the planes!
I think it is worth considering that the neighbours might have moved in before these 68s were introduced. It was asiui the raised tickover noise while being at Marylebone rather than arrival/departure that is the problem. Trains do not tend to zip in and out of termini as they would at a through station.
To be fair I just think some people can be deliberately anti rail and a big ignorant (I'm not saying you are at all) - would these people rather have more cars with more pollution on our roads or keep a noisy train in service that isn't too bad for the environment (especially if HVO works).
All sorts of people can be ignorant. Standards are getting higher but the 68s are a step backwards unfortunately. It is not the pulling away but the raised tickover speed when supplying hotel power for the coaches. A shore supply helps but not really suitable at a station.
Class 68s taking off are no more noisy than 185s are at full pelt. I have worked at a station which has had both within the same day and I wouldn't say there is much difference. There is an EMR 170 which has a rather keen turbo which howls away when setting off, this is louder than any 68. I agree that 68s are louder when idling but this is only usually for a couple of minutes. If they are booked to hang around for hours then why not switch the engine off?

People moaned about 185s being too noisy when they were new but they eventually got used to it and don't complain now, the same will happen with 68s.

How did people cope when roaring rail was a common feature of the track for many years? Most of this has gone now because of better railhead treatment, but when it was common there were stretches which produced more noise than the train itself and the roar could be heard miles away, but it was just a normal feature of the railway which people were used to and there wasn't a big fuss about it like there is here.
I think it is obvious that, in a lot of cases, expectations are a lot higher than they were in previous years. There are a lot of improvements in safety and ergonomics in all sorts of rail and non-rail environments. I am afraid the 68s take us back at least a few decades.
 

12LDA28C

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That is right. Chiltern are endeavouring to keep it to a minimum frequency of use. The noise on arrival/departure is for a great deal longer than ten seconds each time a train departs or arrives. Furthermore the worst was the noise while the train is "turning round" - that is about ten minutes.

'Turn round times' are often rather longer than ten minutes and sets have been stabled at Marylebone in the past for much longer than that, however...

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But have to provide hotel power (ETH) to the stock while it is in the station. So the engine is working at more than tickover. That noise seems to be the culprit.

This is not correct. If the turn round time is longer than just a few minutes then the 68 is shut down and the stock locked up out of use. No 'hotel power' is required until shortly before departure when the loco will be restarted and the stock opened up for passengers to board.
 

YorksLad12

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Speaking as one of the "silly people who choose to live next door to a railway station" (Leeds) - they are by far the noisiest thing. And I'm far away from them, across the river. If you were staying in one of the hotels near P17 when one of them passed by on a just-after midnight departure, you'd know about it.

There's the occasionally annoying DMU on a Harrogate turn that sounds like it's about to shake itself to bits, which is really annoying when you've the window open in summer, but nothing like the 68s. Especially when they depart.
 

HSTEd

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Nuclear flask traffic won’t cease for a very long time, probably not in any of our lifetimes. The current nuclear traffic has probably around 10 years left, by which point sites currently planned/under construction will be generating traffic which should take us through to at least the 2060s. Beyond that there’ll be the geological disposal facility (GDF), almost everything that’s gone to Sellafield over the last 50+ years will have to be moved to the GDF once it’s open and that’ll take decades. Nuclear flask traffic could easily survive into the 2100s, obviously the 68s won’t still be hauling the nuclear flasks at that point though!
New build sites such as Hinkley Point C won't generate much flask traffic because the intermediate storage of fuel for those sites is projected to occur on site. Indeed they are constructing the spent fuel store building at Hinkley as we speak. Likewise there are currently no plans to transport the spent fuel from Sizewell B to Sellafield for storage, only AGR fuel is going there.

Essentially all flask traffic can be expected to cease once all remaining operational AGRs are defueled.

As for moving to a GDF, currently first fuel is not projected to be emplaced until after 2070, and virtually everyone expects that to be delayed. In any case the only site that seems likely to be approved for a GDF will be in Cumbria and probably not very far from Sellafield. Assuming anything ever is.
 

liamf656

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Class 68s taking off are no more noisy than 185s are at full pelt. I have worked at a station which has had both within the same day and I wouldn't say there is much difference.
This is incorrect

There is an EMR 170 which has a rather keen turbo which howls away when setting off, this is louder than any 68.
This is irrelevant as youre referring to a single unit thats creating noise because of an issue with it

People moaned about 185s being too noisy when they were new but they eventually got used to it and don't complain now, the same will happen with 68s.
Where do we draw the line though? Do we keep going through this loop until trains are so loud and bassy they damage buildings? We've progressed past the need to build stupidly noisy locomotives

How did people cope when roaring rail was a common feature of the track for many years? Most of this has gone now because of better railhead treatment, but when it was common there were stretches which produced more noise than the train itself and the roar could be heard miles away, but it was just a normal feature of the railway which people were used to and there wasn't a big fuss about it like there is here.
The technology is there now to make trains quiet, so for a manufacturer to create a class of locomotive that is *so* loud post-millennium is just bad designing

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If they can't come up with a decent silencer and anti-vibration design the things should probably be scrapped, to be honest.
I wouldn't say scrapped, but they definitely need to be redeployed on freight work where they aren't noticed as often, as I don't think you'd get as many complaints if you only heard them once every few weeks or so. I live near Toton and there are a handful of daily turns using 68s but more often than not they're subbed with 66s so you dont hear them as often, hence the lack of complaints when they do show up. I can 100% see the frustration with them being used at Chiltern and TPE. Having to hear them multiple times a day must be difficult for some, and it's no coincidence that the people of Marylebone, Scarborough and York all made the same complaints about the same type of train
 
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12LDA28C

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The technology is there now to make trains quiet, so for a manufacturer to create a class of locomotive that is *so* loud post-millennium is just bad designing

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You're aware of the history of the Class 68 and how it's a European design but shoehorned into a loco which fits within the British loading gauge with no space to fit a (better) silencer? So not really 'bad designing'.
 

Bletchleyite

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You're aware of the history of the Class 68 and how it's a European design but shoehorned into a loco which fits within the British loading gauge with no space to fit a (better) silencer? So not really 'bad designing'.

That doesn't stop it being bad design. There are other options than shoehorning an existing design into a smaller loading gauge and making space by removing or shrinking exhaust components, for instance fitting several smaller engines in a locomotive body in the manner of a triple-length version of the Stadler "thrash cupboard".

Or, to be honest, ordering some DMUs, as if you're going to have small engines why waste a vehicle on them?... :)
 

Trainbike46

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That doesn't stop it being bad design. There are other options than shoehorning an existing design into a smaller loading gauge and making space by removing or shrinking exhaust components, for instance fitting several smaller engines in a locomotive body in the manner of a triple-length version of the Stadler "thrash cupboard".

Or, to be honest, ordering some DMUs, as if you're going to have small engines why waste a vehicle on them?... :)
I think we can say for a fact that the 68s on Chiltern are far from the ideal vehicle for the service!

tbh what is needed is for chiltern to get electrified and get a fleet of EMUs- it's a relatively busy suburban service, and should have been electrified ages ago
 

12LDA28C

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tbh what is needed is for chiltern to get electrified and get a fleet of EMUs- it's a relatively busy suburban service, and should have been electrified ages ago

But that's not gonna happen, so other options are being considered.

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That doesn't stop it being bad design. There are other options than shoehorning an existing design into a smaller loading gauge and making space by removing or shrinking exhaust components, for instance fitting several smaller engines in a locomotive body in the manner of a triple-length version of the Stadler "thrash cupboard".

Can you provide examples of pre-existing designs which you describe that fit within the UK loading gauge and would have been available to DRS / Beacon Rail at the time of Class 68 procurement?
 

Bletchleyite

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Can you provide examples of pre-existing designs which you describe that fit within the UK loading gauge and would have been available to DRS / Beacon Rail at the time of Class 68 procurement?

If all the pre-existing designs are unsuitable, you commission a new one. You don't buy what's there if it's unsuitable, which it is.

Or if you're Chiltern, you stick with 67s. A 68 is less of an issue if it's bimbling down some freight-only branch where nobody's around, or going up the S&C.
 

12LDA28C

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If all the pre-existing designs are unsuitable, you commission a new one. You don't buy what's there if it's unsuitable, which it is.

It's 'unsuitable' in your opinion due to the noise. I'm not convinced that could have been modelled or predicted entirely accurately prior to ordering and construction and even if it was, that people would necessarily complain. All these considerations are well and good in hindsight.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's 'unsuitable' in your opinion due to the noise.

Correct, and not just my opinion, the opinion of the majority here and all those with valid complaints about the things.

I'm not convinced that could have been modelled or predicted entirely accurately prior to ordering and construction

You can certainly model such things with modern computer modelling, plus building prototypes etc.

and even if it was, that people would necessarily complain.

I think anyone who stood beside the running first prototype would have worked out that that would happen. They make an absolute racket.

All these considerations are well and good in hindsight.

Entirely foreseeable.
 

12LDA28C

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Correct, and not just my opinion, the opinion of the majority here and all those with valid complaints about the things.



You can certainly model such things with modern computer modelling, plus building prototypes etc.



I think anyone who stood beside the running first prototype would have worked out that that would happen. They make an absolute racket.



Entirely foreseeable.

Maybe DRS needed a new locomotive within a particular timeframe and weren't prepared to / couldn't wait for various prototypes to be commissioned, built and evaluated before a brand new design was developed which was deemed acceptable to all parties. If only DRS/Beacon had consulted you in the first place all this controversy could have been avoided. How remiss of them.
 

Bletchleyite

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Maybe DRS needed a new locomotive within a particular timeframe and weren't prepared to / couldn't wait for various prototypes to be commissioned, built and evaluated before a brand new design was developed which was deemed acceptable to all parties. If only DRS/Beacon had consulted you in the first place all this controversy could have been avoided. How remiss of them.

More remiss was the proposal to use them on Chiltern Railways and TransPennine Express services with both stabling and operation in built up areas.
 

HSTEd

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You're aware of the history of the Class 68 and how it's a European design but shoehorned into a loco which fits within the British loading gauge with no space to fit a (better) silencer? So not really 'bad designing'.
Ultimately, it is bad design to attempt such a thing and not give up when they realised that the tradeoffs required to make what they wanted to make.

They probably should never have been procured in the first place.
They are chasing a tiny market, with little future, of loco hauled passenger operations and a tiny market, with little future, of nuclear flask freight operations. And they are not even particularly well suited to the latter.

Nuclear flask operations will be almost entirely extinct by 2030, with a large fraction gone by 2025, and despite the delusions of the Treasury and the DECC/BEIS (or whatever acronym they slap on it this week) everyone in the nuclear industry has known this since the late 1980s!

Loco hauled passenger operations will be largely extinct by 2025 the way things are going, save for the sleepers.
 
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12LDA28C

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Ultimately, it is bad design to attempt such a thing and not give up when they realised that the tradeoffs required to make what they wanted to make.

They probably should never have been procured in the first place.
They are chasing a tiny market, with little future, of loco hauled passenger operations and a tiny market, with little future, of nuclear flask freight operations. And they are not even particularly well suited to the latter.

I'm sure DRS had their reasons for doing so and just maybe all the armchair experts on here who seem to know better aren't party to the various considerations that came into play at the time.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'm sure DRS had their reasons for doing so and just maybe all the armchair experts on here who seem to know better aren't party to the various considerations that came into play at the time.

Perhaps it's time there was legislation against railway noise nuisance if they don't consider their responsibility to others important.

Noise pollution is one of the worst types; it ruins lives. You can stop light pollution by putting blackout curtains up and air pollution using air filters and the likes at home, but insulating a home against noise pollution is incredibly expensive and difficult.
 

HSTEd

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I'm sure DRS had their reasons for doing so and just maybe all the armchair experts on here who seem to know better aren't party to the various considerations that came into play at the time.
DRS answers to the NDA, and the NDA has had a long history of attempting to extend reprocessing operations (and MOX manufacturing) at Sellafield in the face of economic reality. So forgive me if I am more than a little cynical about the rationale for this purchase.
 

DanNCL

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New build sites such as Hinkley Point C won't generate much flask traffic because the intermediate storage of fuel for those sites is projected to occur on site. Indeed they are constructing the spent fuel store building at Hinkley as we speak. Likewise there are currently no plans to transport the spent fuel from Sizewell B to Sellafield for storage, only AGR fuel is going there.

Essentially all flask traffic can be expected to cease once all remaining operational AGRs are defueled.

As for moving to a GDF, currently first fuel is not projected to be emplaced until after 2070, and virtually everyone expects that to be delayed. In any case the only site that seems likely to be approved for a GDF will be in Cumbria and probably not very far from Sellafield. Assuming anything ever is.
The last of the current AGR sites still has a few years left of operation and then it’ll take several years after to fully defuel them. That takes us well into the 2030s, long enough for sites not even approved at present to have been built and operational.
Realistically we don’t know what nuclear power plants will be operational in 2040, nor what requirements they will or won’t have for nuclear flask traffic. Hinkley Point and the long closed Trawsfynydd may have on site storage for medium level nuclear waste but not every site will.
Spent AGR fuel isn’t the only material that is transported in Nuclear flasks, there’s also the MOD traffic which whilst limited will continue indefinitely and some commercial sites (Hartlepool definitely, possibly also Heysham and Torness) will need intermediate level waste removing for storage elsewhere too.

I don’t think we can be so certain of a delay to the GDF. The people who’ll be running things when that’s finally under construction are either very young children or not even alive yet. Just because the current generation of politicians can’t deliver anything on time doesn’t mean future generations will have the same incapability.
Noting what you said about location yes it’s a short distance but nuclear flasks have ran short distances from Sellafield to Drigg before. And the previously announced details of the GDF specifically mentioned that waste would arrive at and be transported deep into the GDF tunnels by rail.

They probably should never have been procured in the first place.
They are chasing a tiny market, with little future, of loco hauled passenger operations and a tiny market, with little future, of nuclear flask freight operations. And they are not even particularly well suited to the latter.

Nuclear flask operations will be almost entirely extinct by 2030, with a large fraction gone by 2025, and despite the delusions of the Treasury and the DECC/BEIS (or whatever acronym they slap on it this week) everyone in the nuclear industry has known this since the late 1980s!

DRS is owned by the NDA (which is state owned) and new locos were required for the work as the 20s, 37s and 47s previously doing it were life expired. Nuclear flask workings isn’t a market, it’s a company moving its own material by rail using its own fleet of locomotives.
The 68s are also iirc designed so that they can be converted to 25kV AC locos in the future if the work they were procured for dried up before the end of the locos economic life.
So no, the procurement of the 68s absolutely was justified.

You have far too much confidence in all of the AGR sites closing in the advertised timescales. There’s a history of extending the lifespan of these plants in the UK repeatedly for as long as it’s safe to do so. I can see further extensions happening to the working lives of the remaining AGR sites into the 2030s. Obviously there comes a point where they have to be shut down, and I gather that Torness isn’t far off that point and might not even make it to its planned closure date, but for as long as it’s safe to keep running them the likelihood is that they’ll stay open indefinitely.
 

baza585

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Give the 68s and Mk5s to GWR for Bristol - Penzance, replacing Castles/158s/IETs.

At night, use them on the Night Riveria replacing the 57s.

Then GWR has a business case to order some Caledonian Mk5s to replace the Sleeper Mk3s.

I'm a genius, right?
Maybe. I was going to suggest Cardiff-Pompey with the 68 replaced by a suitable tri mode loco!!
 

43096

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That doesn't stop it being bad design. There are other options than shoehorning an existing design into a smaller loading gauge and making space by removing or shrinking exhaust components, for instance fitting several smaller engines in a locomotive body in the manner of a triple-length version of the Stadler "thrash cupboard".
Because that idea worked so well with the TRAXX multi-engine didn't it?
 

HSTEd

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The last of the current AGR sites still has a few years left of operation and then it’ll take several years after to fully defuel them. That takes us well into the 2030s, long enough for sites not even approved at present to have been built and operational
Realistically we don’t know what nuclear power plants will be operational in 2040, nor what requirements they will or won’t have for nuclear flask traffic. Hinkley Point and the long closed Trawsfynydd may have on site storage for medium level nuclear waste but not every site will.
None of the reactors currently approved or undergoing approval under the Generic Design Assessment process are likely to require significant flask traffic.
Current policy is for onsite storage of all but low level waste, which will be shipped regularly to Drigg.

However, low level waste is likely to be in quantities too small to justify a rail connection and will probably be under road shipment throughout.

And in order to be operational by 2040 it is likely that a reactor would have to start GDA in the very near future, if it has not done so already. Although maybe a miracle will occur and we will actually be able to build a power station in five years rather than ten to fifteen.
Spent AGR fuel isn’t the only material that is transported in Nuclear flasks, there’s also the MOD traffic which whilst limited will continue indefinitely and some commercial sites (Hartlepool definitely, possibly also Heysham and Torness) will need intermediate level waste removing for storage elsewhere too.
With the closure of HMS Vulcan and the development of whole-life submarine cores, I am not sure there will really be much future MoD traffic. We would not expect any nuclear submarine refueling from now on and the impasse over defueling of earlier submarines is probably not going to be resolved any itme soon.
DRS is owned by the NDA (which is state owned) and new locos were required for the work as the 20s, 37s and 47s previously doing it were life expired. Nuclear flask workings isn’t a market, it’s a company moving its own material by rail using its own fleet of locomotives.
The 68s are also iirc designed so that they can be converted to 25kV AC locos in the future if the work they were procured for dried up before the end of the locos economic life.
So no, the procurement of the 68s absolutely was justified.
Conversion into four-axle electric mixed traffic locomotives, one of the few markets that is even more overserved than the four-axle diesel market!
A four axle Class 68 conversion is likely to have little to recommend it over a Class 92, let alone something more modern like a Class 99.
Forgive me if I am even more cynical than usual about the prospect for conversion.

Given the tiny size of most flask workings, they probably would have been better served buying something that more closely resembles an MPV than a conventional freight locomotive.

You have far too much confidence in all of the AGR sites closing in the advertised timescales. There’s a history of extending the lifespan of these plants in the UK repeatedly for as long as it’s safe to do so. I can see further extensions happening to the working lives of the remaining AGR sites into the 2030s. Obviously there comes a point where they have to be shut down, and I gather that Torness isn’t far off that point and might not even make it to its planned closure date, but for as long as it’s safe to keep running them the likelihood is that they’ll stay open indefinitely.
The problem is that the previous closure dates were a result of accounting assumptions, but we have now reached the hard graphite neutron fluence limit. The cores are literally (simultaneously) dissolving and crumbling into powder, they will no longer be able to withstand the design basis earthquake within the next couple of years. At that time, whatever the Treasury wants, it will be the end.
We will likely not see any further life extensions for any of the AGR reactors, and as you say, I would be surprised if Torness and Heysham 2 actually make it to 2028.
 

Peter Sarf

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It's 'unsuitable' in your opinion due to the noise. I'm not convinced that could have been modelled or predicted entirely accurately prior to ordering and construction and even if it was, that people would necessarily complain. All these considerations are well and good in hindsight.
I get the feeling the 68s were ordered in more than one batch. So decisions could have been made after Chiltern had started use of 68s but before the same solution was arrived at by TPE (but see below).
Ultimately, it is bad design to attempt such a thing and not give up when they realised that the tradeoffs required to make what they wanted to make.

They probably should never have been procured in the first place.
They are chasing a tiny market, with little future, of loco hauled passenger operations and a tiny market, with little future, of nuclear flask freight operations. And they are not even particularly well suited to the latter.

Nuclear flask operations will be almost entirely extinct by 2030, with a large fraction gone by 2025, and despite the delusions of the Treasury and the DECC/BEIS (or whatever acronym they slap on it this week) everyone in the nuclear industry has known this since the late 1980s!

Loco hauled passenger operations will be largely extinct by 2025 the way things are going, save for the sleepers.
I think the urgency for a small fleet dictated taking a proven European design and squeezing it into the UK loading guage. I think for use by DRS the noise does not seem to be an issue. It is then having the idea of using them into built up areas that caused notice !.
I'm sure DRS had their reasons for doing so and just maybe all the armchair experts on here who seem to know better aren't party to the various considerations that came into play at the time.
I think the need for a small fleet of diesel locomotives significantly reduced the choices as the UK has to have bespoke designs.
Perhaps it's time there was legislation against railway noise nuisance if they don't consider their responsibility to others important.

Noise pollution is one of the worst types; it ruins lives. You can stop light pollution by putting blackout curtains up and air pollution using air filters and the likes at home, but insulating a home against noise pollution is incredibly expensive and difficult.
I agree noise pollution is hard to mitigate against. Indeed I would say air pollution is hard for people to notice !.

Where the railways have slipped up is sticking the 68s right under the noses (ears) of people in built up areas. By being insensitive in these areas the railways risk crippling noise legislation that will cost them in otherwise indifferent areas.

Marylebone is difficult as the stabling does not seem to be the issue but merely the (slow) turning round - but TPE stabling at Scarborough seems to have been rather naive.

Mind you, for me, its the noise from all the owners of cars and motorbikes that want to show off that needs dealing with first !.

A nice outcome would be if the governments arm could be twisted into electrifying the last route into London [/dream].
 

yorkie

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Mind you, for me, its the noise from all the owners of cars and motorbikes that want to show off that needs dealing with first !.
The road lobby is too powerful for that, sadly; it's worthy of further discussion in a separate thread.

This thread really ought to be about potential future uses for 68s.
 

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